Psychic Powers and Vehicles as Targets....Flyers too?

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**Garviel**

Hi,

The title pretty much explains it all. I was watching a game where a player using a Psyker used 'Puppet Master' but cast it on a Necron Annihalation Barge. The Necron player didn't think he could do that and at first glance, I wasn't able to find it in the BRB to say that vehicles can't be targeted.

I apologise if this has already been FAQ'd but would be interesting to know.

Regards,

Akilleus

**nosferatu1001**

They're a unit. They can be targeted.

**Garviel**

Thanks for the extreme speediness of your reply.

Regards,

Akilleus

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hi,

After after getting my initial question answered I wondered if Flyers could also be targeted with certain Psyker powers.

Again could 'Puppet Master' target a flyer?

Thanks

**Fragile**

It can affect a Flyer, but it has to be Snap Shot to do it.

**Abandon**

It also depends on where you stand on rolling to-hit with witchfires that do not have a weapon profile.

**Cheex**

Fragile wrote:
It can affect a Flyer, but it has to be Snap Shot to do it.

Unless the model also has Skyfire, like FMCs

**insaniak**

Is there more than one place to stand? The Witchfire rules state that they have to roll to hit unless specified otherwise.

**CrownAxe**

insaniak wrote:
Is there more than one place to stand? The Witchfire rules state that they have to roll to hit unless specified otherwise.

The only other stance is that since their is no weapons profile you either don't know how many dice to rule (and shouldn't assume its just 1) or that the lack one on means you roll 0 dice and would either bypass the need to roll to hit or fail to hit at all.

**insaniak**

Interesting. After a quick double check of the Assault Weapon rules, there is indeed no default of '1 unless specified otherwise'.. so Witchfires have to roll to hit unless specified otherwise, count as firing an assault weapon, but in the case of Puppet Master we're not told how many shots that assault weapon gets... which basically renders the power unusable. There is simply no way to resolve the shot within the current rules.

Well, that certainly answers the original question - No, you can't use Puppet Master on vehicles, because you can't use it on anything...

**Happyjew**

insanial, how did you miss this every time it's come up?

**insaniak**

My current army is Space Wolves... So I haven't paid much attention to the discussions of rulebook powers until I started tournament gaming again

**PrinceRaven**

Roll however many dice you want, then resolve the power, Puppet Master doesn't require you to actually hit the target to resolve, you just resolve it.

**insaniak**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Roll however many dice you want, then resolve the power, Puppet Master doesn't require you to actually hit the target to resolve, you just resolve it.

It's a psychic shooting attack... So by default you would need to hit with it. It doesn't need to tell you that a hit is required.

**rigeld2**

insaniak wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Roll however many dice you want, then resolve the power, Puppet Master doesn't require you to actually hit the target to resolve, you just resolve it.

It's a psychic shooting attack... So by default you would need to hit with it. It doesn't need to tell you that a hit is required.

That's an assumption that isn't supported by rules.
Unless you'd like to cite one?

**Abandon**

insaniak wrote:
Interesting. After a quick double check of the Assault Weapon rules, there is indeed no default of '1 unless specified otherwise'.. so Witchfires have to roll to hit unless specified otherwise, count as firing an assault weapon, but in the case of Puppet Master we're not told how many shots that assault weapon gets... which basically renders the power unusable. There is simply no way to resolve the shot within the current rules.

Well, that certainly answers the original question - No, you can't use Puppet Master on vehicles, because you can't use it on anything...

Many have come to this conclusion.

RAW = Broken
RAI = unknown
HYWPI = ?

Also, consider the To-hit process. Even if you could roll To-Hit, there's nothing to do with a Hit other than turn it into a wound. How does one proceed from there? how does a Hit translate to the power having it's effect at all? The powers themselves describe effects on the target but do not correlate it to a Hit in any way... Psychic Shriek has the same issue.

**PrinceRaven**

insaniak wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Roll however many dice you want, then resolve the power, Puppet Master doesn't require you to actually hit the target to resolve, you just resolve it.

It's a psychic shooting attack... So by default you would need to hit with it. It doesn't need to tell you that a hit is required.

The rules for manifesting psychic powers disagree with you.

**Uptopdownunder**

How anyone possibly read the rules for a focussed witchfire and come up with the conclusion that it can't be fired is beyond me.

The rules for Puppet Master make it blindingly clear what you do. You roll to hit, apply an effect and it is fired as if it is an assault weapon. The "number of shots" is irrelevant because it isn't shooting, the nature of the power sorts all that.

**PrinceRaven**

Exactly, expend warp charge, do leadership test (pay attention to result because it's a focussed witchfire), deny the witch, resolve power according to entry. Nowhere in the the entry of Puppet Master does it say anything about hitting your target.

**Uptopdownunder**

You have roll to hit because it is a witchfire, says that pretty clearly.

**PrinceRaven**

Yes, but it doesn't matter that you have to because it doesn't actually affect the resolution of the power according to its entry.

**Pyrian**

Lol. Has anybody ever tried to tell an opponent in-game that "I know the rules say I have to roll to-hit, but they don't say it matters whether I miss"?

**CrownAxe**

Uptopdownunder wrote:
You have roll to hit because it is a witchfire, says that pretty clearly.

so then how many dice do you roll?

**PrinceRaven**

Just make a rolling motion with your empty hand before resolving the power to satisfy the RAW.

Pyrian wrote:
Lol. Has anybody ever tried to tell an opponent in-game that "I know the rules say I have to roll to-hit, but they don't say it matters whether I miss"?

Back when Tyranid psykers weren't 2nd class citizens I actually did, my gaming group said "just treat it like an auto-hit then" and everything was fine.

**Uptopdownunder**

CrownAxe wrote:
Uptopdownunder wrote:
You have roll to hit because it is a witchfire, says that pretty clearly.

so then how many dice do you roll?

1, why is that not obvious ?

**CrownAxe**

Uptopdownunder wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:
Uptopdownunder wrote:
You have roll to hit because it is a witchfire, says that pretty clearly.

so then how many dice do you roll?

1, why is that not obvious ?

No where in the rules does it say witchfires roll 1 dice to hit

**Uptopdownunder**

It doesn't need to, they simply roll to hit what else would you roll when firing a power that has a single effect.

If you need support for that then take a look at pistols. Everyone knows they only fire one shot but nowhere is that stated.

The best you get is that the rules say it is "effectively" assault 1. In the rule we are told that a unit can assault after firing a pistol but no where does it say explicitly that it fires once. So ergo it must be a given that any weapon can fire once unless stated otherwise.

**CrownAxe**

Pistols do explicitly say they are assault 1 on page 52. the "effectively" doesn't make it any less a rule. It says it clearly right there. It doesn't say anything of the sort for witchfires.

And it does need to say so because warhammer is a permissive rule set. We have to be given permission to do anything. If that wasn't the case then I can just declare myself the winner because the rules don't say i can't.

**PrinceRaven**

Uptopdownunder wrote:
It doesn't need to, they simply roll to hit what else would you roll when firing a power that has a single effect.

0 dice, 3 dice, a strawberry, the rules don't specify.

**Uptopdownunder**

No guys just no. The answers are thrre in the rules, you just have to want to find them.

As an aside "Effectively" means (vide Oxford Dictionary) "actually but not officially or explicitly" so it's not explicit at all but it is a given. Just like one witchfire = 1 die.

**Mythra**

If I ever get to play PrinceRaven I am rolling a strawberry. What state you in btw?