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Made in gb
Wondering Why the Emperor Left






Hi,

The title pretty much explains it all. I was watching a game where a player using a Psyker used 'Puppet Master' but cast it on a Necron Annihalation Barge. The Necron player didn't think he could do that and at first glance, I wasn't able to find it in the BRB to say that vehicles can't be targeted.

I apologise if this has already been FAQ'd but would be interesting to know.

Regards,

Akilleus

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/22 16:37:25


Luna Wolves
Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons
Pre-Heresy Space Wolves
Orks  
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




They're a unit. They can be targeted.
   
Made in gb
Wondering Why the Emperor Left






Thanks for the extreme speediness of your reply.

Regards,

Akilleus


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hi,

After after getting my initial question answered I wondered if Flyers could also be targeted with certain Psyker powers.

Again could 'Puppet Master' target a flyer?

Thanks

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/22 16:38:38


Luna Wolves
Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons
Pre-Heresy Space Wolves
Orks  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It can affect a Flyer, but it has to be Snap Shot to do it.
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

It also depends on where you stand on rolling to-hit with witchfires that do not have a weapon profile.

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Fragile wrote:
It can affect a Flyer, but it has to be Snap Shot to do it.

Unless the model also has Skyfire, like FMCs
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Is there more than one place to stand? The Witchfire rules state that they have to roll to hit unless specified otherwise.


 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





 insaniak wrote:
Is there more than one place to stand? The Witchfire rules state that they have to roll to hit unless specified otherwise.



The only other stance is that since their is no weapons profile you either don't know how many dice to rule (and shouldn't assume its just 1) or that the lack one on means you roll 0 dice and would either bypass the need to roll to hit or fail to hit at all.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Interesting. After a quick double check of the Assault Weapon rules, there is indeed no default of '1 unless specified otherwise'.. so Witchfires have to roll to hit unless specified otherwise, count as firing an assault weapon, but in the case of Puppet Master we're not told how many shots that assault weapon gets... which basically renders the power unusable. There is simply no way to resolve the shot within the current rules.


Well, that certainly answers the original question - No, you can't use Puppet Master on vehicles, because you can't use it on anything...

 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

insanial, how did you miss this every time it's come up?

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

My current army is Space Wolves... So I haven't paid much attention to the discussions of rulebook powers until I started tournament gaming again

 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Roll however many dice you want, then resolve the power, Puppet Master doesn't require you to actually hit the target to resolve, you just resolve it.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Roll however many dice you want, then resolve the power, Puppet Master doesn't require you to actually hit the target to resolve, you just resolve it.

It's a psychic shooting attack... So by default you would need to hit with it. It doesn't need to tell you that a hit is required.

 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 insaniak wrote:
 PrinceRaven wrote:
Roll however many dice you want, then resolve the power, Puppet Master doesn't require you to actually hit the target to resolve, you just resolve it.

It's a psychic shooting attack... So by default you would need to hit with it. It doesn't need to tell you that a hit is required.

That's an assumption that isn't supported by rules.
Unless you'd like to cite one?

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

 insaniak wrote:
Interesting. After a quick double check of the Assault Weapon rules, there is indeed no default of '1 unless specified otherwise'.. so Witchfires have to roll to hit unless specified otherwise, count as firing an assault weapon, but in the case of Puppet Master we're not told how many shots that assault weapon gets... which basically renders the power unusable. There is simply no way to resolve the shot within the current rules.


Well, that certainly answers the original question - No, you can't use Puppet Master on vehicles, because you can't use it on anything...


Many have come to this conclusion.

RAW = Broken
RAI = unknown
HYWPI = ?

Also, consider the To-hit process. Even if you could roll To-Hit, there's nothing to do with a Hit other than turn it into a wound. How does one proceed from there? how does a Hit translate to the power having it's effect at all? The powers themselves describe effects on the target but do not correlate it to a Hit in any way... Psychic Shriek has the same issue.

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

 insaniak wrote:
 PrinceRaven wrote:
Roll however many dice you want, then resolve the power, Puppet Master doesn't require you to actually hit the target to resolve, you just resolve it.

It's a psychic shooting attack... So by default you would need to hit with it. It doesn't need to tell you that a hit is required.


The rules for manifesting psychic powers disagree with you.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Hacking Interventor




How anyone possibly read the rules for a focussed witchfire and come up with the conclusion that it can't be fired is beyond me.

The rules for Puppet Master make it blindingly clear what you do. You roll to hit, apply an effect and it is fired as if it is an assault weapon. The "number of shots" is irrelevant because it isn't shooting, the nature of the power sorts all that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/23 06:38:45


 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Exactly, expend warp charge, do leadership test (pay attention to result because it's a focussed witchfire), deny the witch, resolve power according to entry. Nowhere in the the entry of Puppet Master does it say anything about hitting your target.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Hacking Interventor




You have roll to hit because it is a witchfire, says that pretty clearly.
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Yes, but it doesn't matter that you have to because it doesn't actually affect the resolution of the power according to its entry.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Lol. Has anybody ever tried to tell an opponent in-game that "I know the rules say I have to roll to-hit, but they don't say it matters whether I miss"?
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





Uptopdownunder wrote:
You have roll to hit because it is a witchfire, says that pretty clearly.

so then how many dice do you roll?
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Just make a rolling motion with your empty hand before resolving the power to satisfy the RAW.

Pyrian wrote:
Lol. Has anybody ever tried to tell an opponent in-game that "I know the rules say I have to roll to-hit, but they don't say it matters whether I miss"?


Back when Tyranid psykers weren't 2nd class citizens I actually did, my gaming group said "just treat it like an auto-hit then" and everything was fine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/23 07:55:28


 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Hacking Interventor




 CrownAxe wrote:
Uptopdownunder wrote:
You have roll to hit because it is a witchfire, says that pretty clearly.

so then how many dice do you roll?


1, why is that not obvious ?
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





Uptopdownunder wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
Uptopdownunder wrote:
You have roll to hit because it is a witchfire, says that pretty clearly.

so then how many dice do you roll?


1, why is that not obvious ?

No where in the rules does it say witchfires roll 1 dice to hit
   
Made in us
Hacking Interventor




It doesn't need to, they simply roll to hit what else would you roll when firing a power that has a single effect.

If you need support for that then take a look at pistols. Everyone knows they only fire one shot but nowhere is that stated.

The best you get is that the rules say it is "effectively" assault 1. In the rule we are told that a unit can assault after firing a pistol but no where does it say explicitly that it fires once. So ergo it must be a given that any weapon can fire once unless stated otherwise.

   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





Pistols do explicitly say they are assault 1 on page 52. the "effectively" doesn't make it any less a rule. It says it clearly right there. It doesn't say anything of the sort for witchfires.

And it does need to say so because warhammer is a permissive rule set. We have to be given permission to do anything. If that wasn't the case then I can just declare myself the winner because the rules don't say i can't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/23 08:20:11


 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Uptopdownunder wrote:
It doesn't need to, they simply roll to hit what else would you roll when firing a power that has a single effect.


0 dice, 3 dice, a strawberry, the rules don't specify.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Hacking Interventor




No guys just no. The answers are thrre in the rules, you just have to want to find them.

As an aside "Effectively" means (vide Oxford Dictionary) "actually but not officially or explicitly" so it's not explicit at all but it is a given. Just like one witchfire = 1 die.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/23 09:52:39


 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar





New Orleans

If I ever get to play PrinceRaven I am rolling a strawberry. What state you in btw?

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