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Yeah, I know most people don't like it.

But forcing armour saves makes the drop pod a potential threat. I've had enough players focus on it the next turn rather than my scoring units because I've killed the occasional elite troop.

I once killed 4/5 terminators with a deathwind and misfortune from Tigurius.

For your opponent's sake, this is worth asking- are you aware that you can't cast blessings and maledictions the turn you arrive by drop pod? I've played against several people who were not, and it certainly changes the game against drop pods. (i.e. no misfortune/prescience/forewarning on the first turn)

Yeah I know, but he has storm of fire which is a one turn prescience.

In defense of your opponent, you did take 3 relatively inexpensive (and effective) flyers in a smallish point game. That being said, his list was truly bad, and he is probably one of those that still believes space marine assaulting should be overwhelming. Most likely, he was just frustrating by not being able to alpha strike and by going second, I'm sure you were able to shoot down his stormraven easily enough with your three flyers before it was able to do much.

Look at it another way, a lot of people tend to scream WAAC when a Necron player puts 3 Nightscythes in a 1000-1200 point list, or Eldar players put 3 wave serpents in a similarly pointed game. Stormtalons are not as good as those units, but they are pretty darn effective (one of the better units in the codex). They are likely 1 hull point away from being considered an OP unit.

Stormtalons are sky Razorbacks. Heavily armed but squishy. No-one thinks to aim at them - they're consistently under estimated in my store.

Carraway - yeah I only got 2 fliers in at turn 2, and the first one exploded the Raven with only the Assault cannon.

It doesn't sound OP at all compared to some lists that get used even at that points level. From the sound of it, I think it came down to luck, and the fact that BA are just outmatched by most things at the moment.

Again some of lists, your SM might have actually struggled, as had the alpha-strike not gone as planned, 15 tactical marines for scoring is not a lot to ride on. Similarly, if you hadn't done significant damage on the drop, the Death Co would have made a mess of almost anything. So no, the list was not OP or cheesy there is a line between good competent list building (what you did) and over the top cheese lists like screamerstars/Triptides ect.

Also, I will say that being WAAC/'that guy' is far more down to personality than just your army. If someone brings a tourney-level list that is well-painted and they are a good sport during the game (however short it is), then I'm far less likely to call them TFG than someone who brings a less-good list, grey plastic FOTM army and cheats/is a bad sportsman. So as long as you're a decent chap to people, you're not TFG.

Nah, I slapped my metaphorical junk across his face.

Whooped with every model he removed from the table and called him a cheater for every guy he killed

I've beaten him before with a static marine gunline with scouts and tanks behind an AGL. In fact... now I think of it, I've beaten him every time I've played, and it's been increasingly one sided.

 Tigurius wrote:
Stormtalons are sky Razorbacks. Heavily armed but squishy. No-one thinks to aim at them - they're consistently under estimated in my store.

Carraway - yeah I only got 2 fliers in at turn 2, and the first one exploded the Raven with only the Assault cannon.

Their squishy-ness is mitigated by the flyer rules though. Like armor saturation is need to keep tanks alive, more flyers in the sky is harder to deal with then just one. At that point scale I probably only have two things with skyfire. Any other AA is just massed ground fire, possibly with tricks like using the UM tac/dev CTs for re-rolls. So there is a very small number of things that can threaten the thin armor.

Razorbacks have paper armor and everyone can target them. Including blasts and CC attacks which can’t touch the talons. So calling stormtallons “sky razorbacks” is a little deceptive.

But the guy was fielding a raven. With PotMS he could potently be shooting down 2 talons a turn. You got lucky, got the drop. and splashed him first.

Alright Nev! Fine!!!

They're Sky-razorbacks-that-are-hard-hit-and-can't-be-melee'd-or-templated.

Personally, I don't think it sounds as catchy, but whatever

Going second to maintain air superiority is my main plan dependency, along with good reserve rolls for the enemy. 3rd turn Stormraven would be an issue.

I am a BA player and I will tell you that his list sucked. Hard. I know my codex is garbage but I really just play for fun and I can honestly say I've had a lot of fun playing them.
I do agree with some of the posts here that it may be poor form to bring flyers to a game at that point level, but in the end he just sounds bitter and honestly, with that craptastic list he brought he deserved to lose that hard. Not trashing the guy, just trashing his list.

I can field a BA list that has at least a 45% chance of beating the OPs list. The BA player in question fell for the classic trap unit known as DC.

If 1200 pts of BA had just bum's rushed the deployment zone, I don't think the stormtalons would have been nearly as strong.

Martel732 wrote:
I can field a BA list that has at least a 45% chance of beating the OPs list. The BA player in question fell for the classic trap unit known as DC.

If 1200 pts of BA had just bum's rushed the deployment zone, I don't think the stormtalons would have been nearly as strong.

To be fair Martel this failure shouldn't be blamed on just Death Company, I can't for the life of me imagine what kind of list this guy was trying to make. Not competitive obviously, and certainly not fluffy either. So what was he going for?

Yes, but bringing DC is the beginning of a slippery slope for any BA player. The BA have basically zero margin for error to even win at 50% rate. All remotely dubious units have to be left at home.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, but bringing DC is the beginning of a slippery slope for any BA player. The BA have basically zero margin for error to even win at 50% rate. All remotely dubious units have to be left at home.

Eh, different philosophies. I am very firmly against playing an army a certain way just because everyone else agrees that it is the best (and therefore the only) way to play them. I go with what I enjoy, and rely on the actual playing of the game to make up for the weaknesses in my list. For the most part you're right, I am certainly below 50% against my group's Tau player but I still win just enough to keep me from getting truly frustrated with the situation. I'm above 50% overall though, and fairly happy with that all things considered.

Your list is pretty similar too mine hahaha :p


And I don't think your "that guy"

A good description of "that guy" is some bloke in my local GW has preordered 6 knights to run a full army because he knows the majority of players can't deal with it

I expect to hard counter and make him rage quit ( again cuz he's that guy )

 Orblivion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, but bringing DC is the beginning of a slippery slope for any BA player. The BA have basically zero margin for error to even win at 50% rate. All remotely dubious units have to be left at home.

Eh, different philosophies. I am very firmly against playing an army a certain way just because everyone else agrees that it is the best (and therefore the only) way to play them. I go with what I enjoy, and rely on the actual playing of the game to make up for the weaknesses in my list. For the most part you're right, I am certainly below 50% against my group's Tau player but I still win just enough to keep me from getting truly frustrated with the situation. I'm above 50% overall though, and fairly happy with that all things considered.

Actually, I'm not sure what the "best" is in the BA codex, but I can tell what is not in the running, and to leave those units at home.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, but bringing DC is the beginning of a slippery slope for any BA player. The BA have basically zero margin for error to even win at 50% rate. All remotely dubious units have to be left at home.

I have had tremendous success with my DC. My ten man squad has four bolters, an infernus pistol, two powerswords, two power axes, and two powerfists and they wreak unimaginable carnage wherever they go. Yes a lot of the attacks are made at I1, but most of those attacks can't be saved against and DC is very resilient overall (3+ save plus 5+ FNP..) They frequently hit and wound on 3's for me and with my Reclusiarch they re-roll all to hit and to wound rolls on the charge which if I remember correctly is 34 total attacks with re-rolls (12 of those attacks ignore 3+ armor saves and below.) I also will say that I've had incredible luck with my rolls lately so that could be a factor. But to call them dubious units? In my opinion they are the FINAL WORD in cc on the charge with a Reclusiarch. DC are far from dubious, just more often than not incorrectly used I think.

I agree with the uphill battle part though...I am undefeated so far in my early stages of game play (13-1-0) but I have had to REALLY WORK at those wins and use some clever movements to make it so.

I will kill your DC before they get anywhere close to me. And if they do, spoiling assaults reduce them to ASM. That's why DC are bad. And even if you do kill a single unit (and you will kill it dead), I'll shoot you to death the next turn. There is no way to get ahead with these guys against people who know what they are doing. There is no correct way to use them. Other than as paper weights if you have the metal ones.

Martel732 wrote:
I will kill your DC before they get anywhere close to me. And if they do, spoiling assaults reduce them to ASM. That's why DC are bad. And even if you do kill a single unit (and you will kill it dead), I'll shoot you to death the next turn. There is no way to get ahead with these guys against people who know what they are doing. There is no correct way to use them. Other than as paper weights if you have the metal ones.

So you are saying that if my opponent knows what he is doing than I must know NOTHING about what I'm doing because I'm using DC? Yeah. I think the unit is fine. And I would look at your scenario and say "I just killed your unit and you used a turn of shooting to kill off my DC (unlikely you'd wipe the whole unit, but it depends on weapons and number of units firing) leaving my other units safe from that gunfire for a turn. DC are a kamikaze squad. Don't play careful with them. Who cares if they die? Play reckless. Seriously by the end of all my games I usually have like one DC standing if I'm lucky. I EXPECT them to die. And I'd welcome an opponent who was stupid enough to waste a turn of shooting from multiple units to kill off DC. That my friend, is NOT knowing what you are doing.

Martel732 wrote:
I will kill your DC before they get anywhere close to me. And if they do, spoiling assaults reduce them to ASM. That's why DC are bad. And even if you do kill a single unit (and you will kill it dead), I'll shoot you to death the next turn. There is no way to get ahead with these guys against people who know what they are doing. There is no correct way to use them. Other than as paper weights if you have the metal ones.

That's the mentality I was talking about earlier, about how what people decide is the best way to play suddenly becomes the only way to play. This is why I despise the truly competitive mindset, because to "do it right" you have to be a fething robot and the game becomes formula.

I don't hold a grudge against you Martel, but I hope you realize at some point that your extreme negativity makes it increasingly difficult to hold any kind of discussion with you.

Hey, I recently got called an "Internet Rules Lawyer" for insisting that Jet packs can only move 6" in the movement phase. You can't really put much stock in random opinions. You put stock in the opinions of people that matter.

Murdius Maximus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I will kill your DC before they get anywhere close to me. And if they do, spoiling assaults reduce them to ASM. That's why DC are bad. And even if you do kill a single unit (and you will kill it dead), I'll shoot you to death the next turn. There is no way to get ahead with these guys against people who know what they are doing. There is no correct way to use them. Other than as paper weights if you have the metal ones.

So you are saying that if my opponent knows what he is doing than I must know NOTHING about what I'm doing because I'm using DC? Yeah. I think the unit is fine. And I would look at your scenario and say "I just killed your unit and you used a turn of shooting to kill off my DC (unlikely you'd wipe the whole unit, but it depends on weapons and number of units firing) leaving my other units safe from that gunfire for a turn. DC are a kamikaze squad. Don't play careful with them. Who cares if they die? Play reckless. Seriously by the end of all my games I usually have like one DC standing if I'm lucky. I EXPECT them to die. And I'd welcome an opponent who was stupid enough to waste a turn of shooting from multiple units to kill off DC. That my friend, is NOT knowing what you are doing.

Yeah, if only there were other legitimate threats in the BA codex. Wait, there aren't. DC cost more than other BA and are not any more durable. It doesn't take any more fire to kill 10 DC than it does 10 BA jerk offs standing next to a priest. Shooty lists are going to kill a bunch of BA every turn, so why not start with the DC? Regular ASM arent' much of a threat, so why shoot them instead?

Also, it doesn't take a whole turn of firing for many lists to kill 10 DC. That's another fallacy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I will kill your DC before they get anywhere close to me. And if they do, spoiling assaults reduce them to ASM. That's why DC are bad. And even if you do kill a single unit (and you will kill it dead), I'll shoot you to death the next turn. There is no way to get ahead with these guys against people who know what they are doing. There is no correct way to use them. Other than as paper weights if you have the metal ones.

That's the mentality I was talking about earlier, about how what people decide is the best way to play suddenly becomes the only way to play. This is why I despise the truly competitive mindset, because to "do it right" you have to be a fething robot and the game becomes formula.

I don't hold a grudge against you Martel, but I hope you realize at some point that your extreme negativity makes it increasingly difficult to hold any kind of discussion with you.

Then tell me the "right way" to use DC then. Drop pods = death by double tap and/or spoiling assault; jump packs are way overcosted; LR is doable, but now you've just made it a 450+ point unit that MIGHT kill 200 pts. Unless they have to assault 60 pts of Kroot or soemthing like that.

This isn't just me being "negative". This is me adapting to how other players push the plastic.

Martel732 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I will kill your DC before they get anywhere close to me. And if they do, spoiling assaults reduce them to ASM. That's why DC are bad. And even if you do kill a single unit (and you will kill it dead), I'll shoot you to death the next turn. There is no way to get ahead with these guys against people who know what they are doing. There is no correct way to use them. Other than as paper weights if you have the metal ones.

That's the mentality I was talking about earlier, about how what people decide is the best way to play suddenly becomes the only way to play. This is why I despise the truly competitive mindset, because to "do it right" you have to be a fething robot and the game becomes formula.

I don't hold a grudge against you Martel, but I hope you realize at some point that your extreme negativity makes it increasingly difficult to hold any kind of discussion with you.

Then tell me the "right way" to use DC then. Drop pods = death by double tap and/or spoiling assault; jump packs are way overcosted; LR is doable, but now you've just made it a 450+ point unit that MIGHT kill 200 pts. Unless they have to assault 60 pts of Kroot or soemthing like that.

This isn't just me being "negative". This is me adapting to how other players push the plastic.

You're not getting it Martel, its not a matter of me disagreeing with you, or the "right way" to do anything. When I talk to you I feel like I'm talking to a friggin magic 8 ball, I'm going to get one of a very limited number of responses over and over and over.

In game terms, your constant lamenting about how powerful Taudar are and how terrible MEQs are is as pointless as me fielding Death Company.

Well.... back on topic....

OP, you aren't running a TFG list. At all. Running UM in the first place makes you 'this guy', rather than 'that guy'. Then again, you're opponent was asking to lose by playing BA. Just saying.

Lucarikx

I guess I find there to be a limited number of relevants facts in 40K, which is why my answers and opinions don't diverge much. GW has taken a lot of the options in the game and made them "no takes" or "auto takes", which limits the discussion, imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Well.... back on topic....

OP, you aren't running a TFG list. At all. Running UM in the first place makes you 'this guy', rather than 'that guy'. Then again, you're opponent was asking to lose by playing BA. Just saying.

Lucarikx

Yup, this.

Martel732 wrote:

Murdius Maximus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I will kill your DC before they get anywhere close to me. And if they do, spoiling assaults reduce them to ASM. That's why DC are bad. And even if you do kill a single unit (and you will kill it dead), I'll shoot you to death the next turn. There is no way to get ahead with these guys against people who know what they are doing. There is no correct way to use them. Other than as paper weights if you have the metal ones.

So you are saying that if my opponent knows what he is doing than I must know NOTHING about what I'm doing because I'm using DC? Yeah. I think the unit is fine. And I would look at your scenario and say "I just killed your unit and you used a turn of shooting to kill off my DC (unlikely you'd wipe the whole unit, but it depends on weapons and number of units firing) leaving my other units safe from that gunfire for a turn. DC are a kamikaze squad. Don't play careful with them. Who cares if they die? Play reckless. Seriously by the end of all my games I usually have like one DC standing if I'm lucky. I EXPECT them to die. And I'd welcome an opponent who was stupid enough to waste a turn of shooting from multiple units to kill off DC. That my friend, is NOT knowing what you are doing.

Yeah, if only there were other legitimate threats in the BA codex. Wait, there aren't. DC cost more than other BA and are not any more durable. It doesn't take any more fire to kill 10 DC than it does 10 BA jerk offs standing next to a priest. Shooty lists are going to kill a bunch of BA every turn, so why not start with the DC? Regular ASM arent' much of a threat, so why shoot them instead?

Also, it doesn't take a whole turn of firing for many lists to kill 10 DC. That's another fallacy.

There are actually quite a few legitimate threats in the Codex. DC just happens to be my favorite. Mephiston is a monster when played correctly, have you even tried to hit and run with Dante and Sanguinary Guard? Perhaps Brother Corbulo being one of the more elite tank units in the game is garbage right? And Terminators are always crap too? And that Stormraven...God don't even get me started on the total piece of orc dung that thing is. Oh hey did you hear about the Furioso Dreadnought? WORST. DREAD. EVER.

Sheesh man you talk with no idea of what you are talking about. Have you even played as BA? And if so have you even tried to craft an army that wasn't a netlist? Are the units I've named Helldrakes or Riptides? No. But can they be used to win? Most definitely. Yes we have a weak codex. Yes we are a bottom tier army. But we are FAR from out totally. Personally I like the challenge of playing BA. We have a lot of threats. Just not shiny, new, updated ones (yet) so we have to play them more skillfully.

As far as my "fallacy" goes..remember that very rarely will you make EVERY roll and I will FAIL every save. Yes you could shoot them off the table in one turn with several units, but you'd just be wasting firepower at that point, and it would give me a turn to move into position with my other units. You do realize that TWO people play this game right? You can't just assume that because you have amazing firepower on paper that it will over-rape everything that you play it against.

Dante, sanguinary guard, terminators are all bad.

Corbulo is very good, although on foot.

The Stormraven is marginal compared to its competition that gets played a lot. (Vendettas, Night Scythes, Hell Drakes) The fliers that it is better than never get used, and so don't matter.

Mephiston is situationally very good, but the introduction of grav hurt him badly.

Fragnoughts are incredible against infantry, very meh against meched up lists.

I've played the BA a lot. I mean a lot. Since 2nd ed. I have played a tremendous amount of permutations of available BA units as I have all of them. I don't use BA netlists. I use my own lists based off my experiences.

BA are pretty much out. When you play an identical list to another marine 'dex but pay 20% more, the 'dex is dead, yo.

Martel732 wrote:
Dante, sanguinary guard, terminators are all bad.

Corbulo is very good, although on foot.

The Stormraven is marginal compared to its competition that gets played a lot. (Vendettas, Night Scythes, Hell Drakes) The fliers that it is better than never get used, and so don't matter.

Mephiston is situationally very good, but the introduction of grav hurt him badly.

Fragnoughts are incredible against infantry, very meh against meched up lists.

I've played the BA a lot. I mean a lot. Since 2nd ed. I have played a tremendous amount of permutations of available BA units as I have all of them. I don't use BA netlists. I use my own lists based off my experiences.

Then why act like an elitist jerk?
At my FLGS we don't see any of that netlist, overkill, WAAC crap and we'd laugh them right out of the building because they would never, EVER, be able to get a game in. Not everything is WAAC. You must be a hyper competitive player and that is good for you. But don't piss all over other people for their choices.
Because then you just look like an elitist jerk. And that makes you "That Guy."

I'm not defending anyone, but if a 'dex has bad choices, and a person states the bad choices, no need to call him a 'that guy'. We should stop the name calling before a mod closes this thread.