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Well dang, I could have saved myself typing all that up because a backer posted a very similar statement in the comments . Copied below:
Spoiler:
I'm a bit disappointed to see the jump from last year's kickstarter. I'm glad this was mentioned in the video, but I put myself in last year for 5 painted sets which were amazing, and well worth it, but seeing now the jump up from was going from 3 sets hand painted to 5 sets hand painted was $235 to $380, or $145. Now, to get 3 sets, we're going up by $50, to $285, or if I wanted to match my pledge last year, the five set has jumped up by $75.
If you go further into the costs on a per set basis, talking just about core inclusion of materials versus painted, we can start with the single set, last year, priced at $65 for flat grey or $95 for hand painted. That's a $30 difference, yet now that same single set gray is $75 (a $10 difference already), and then hand painted is further upped to $110, ($15 dollar difference). Has the costs of manual labor gone up versus the painting, assuming it's done in house, were your painting costs increased as well, as the material costs are one thing, but the paints weren't mentioned on the video, and this just feels like it's a 5,10,15 difference here and there. Your product is well worth what you offer, yet if these prices were to continue the exact same trend next year, your drop off is likely again, going in the direction that you fine folks stated you didn't want to see.
Worse yet is the fact that sliding molds do cost more, yet despite the cost difference that we are paying for, we are dropping down the number of pieces substantially.
Last year without dealing with stretch goals, we got a total of 34 pieces, with two of those pieces being doors. I'm not expecting doors in caves, but they are wholly unique fitted pieces and gave us four total types of tiles to work with on the base set.
This year, we plummet down to 26 pieces without stretch goals, there are three base types of tiles. The numbers don't make a lot of sense without going into more detail.
Have the costs risen so dramatically, that you felt the need to drop roughly 25% of the pieces out of the price of one set, while raising the costs 10-15%, while going from 4 unique types of tiles to 3?
I'd expect that shrink ray from a cereal box at a chain grocery store, not Dwarven Forge.
This really feels like you're pricing out of the market which I know is the exact opposite of what you guys are going for. I had small emails with you guys last year, and I know it's real people that are working their butts off with this stuff, but I think that the pricing model is a bit too high, and could see less support because of it.
Hell, I'm likely wrong, you guys will blow away the numbers, but for every person that looked last year and couldn't afford it or weighed it carefully before deciding they could get maybe a set, this year grew even further out of reach.
That's a real worry.
Please reach out, I'd like to hear back, even if it's in private.
There have been a few good responses but I hope Dwarven Forge actually addresses it, too.
Also first update looks to be an accidental one intended for the original campaign
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/12 17:09:23
RiTides wrote: I don't think they should cost more to make, though, as they're the same size...
Many of these pieces, due to their complexity, will require slide molds to produce. The recessed detail is much more elaborate than the first Kickstarter tiles, so the production costs needed for each tile are a bit more. I think Stefan mentioned it in the campaign video. I also think the amount of material needed for each piece may be a bit more, so that could potentially be a factor as well.
The discount at 10 sets is 18% this time, whereas it was closer to 23% in the Dungeon Tiles KS at 10 sets, so yes it is a bit more expensive, but I'd argue the tile quality and variety for tile type is vastly greater this time.
~iPaint
iPaint's Workbench - a blog for all of my painting endeavors
Currently painting: 20mm WW2, 28mm Zombicide
In the pipeline: 28mm Reaper Bones, Dwarven Forge Game Tiles
At a glance, we got 19 extra tiles at 400k last campaign, versus 10 extras at 450k this campaign, however in the first they were mostly just duplicates of things we already had (as we all know, the molds are the expensive part for these things, punching out a few thousand more pieces is comparatively pennies), whereas these are being described as "Wall B" and "Floor C", etc, indicating to me that there'll be a lot more variation present, which means more molds, which means a higher cost.
It's definitely something to factor into ones judgement as to whether or not they can afford to back, but I think 3 hours and a half dozen stretch goals is unlikely to be indicative of the entire campaign, in the same way that the Kicktraq information won't be either. It's asking to ascertain too much from too little information.
iPaint, to respond to your comment from the last page, it's not just 15% more expensive, though- it's 25% more expensive for almost 25% less pieces! I'm not good with percentages so I don't know how to reconcile those two, but that makes a big difference.
My numbers come from: 5 unpainted sets last time was $260, now it is $325 (25% more). Each set came with 34 pieces last time, now it is 26 (23.5% less contents).
That said, I'm much more interested in this one than the last, so that's why I bothered to calculate that . And I agree with you that these do likely cost more to make... but that almost 25% drop in contents is the really worrying part, not the price increase, to me.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/12 17:11:23
It's worth noting that in the first campaign, they gained those 19 extra tiles/pieces in 6 days.
We should gain 10 in the first 2.5 hours.
Yes, they are more expensive per piece and we're starting with fewer pieces, but we're also still in the literal opening gambit of the campaign. Sure, only one chance to make a first impression and whatnot, but I think it's worth waiting at least a few days, if not a few weeks, to see where we really start to settle into before comparing the 'value' found in this campaign.
As the mold costs are front loaded, it may simply be they want to have that all settled out before they can really justify throwing piles of extra pieces our way.
RiTides wrote: iPaint, to respond to your comment from the last page, it's not just 15% more expensive, though- it's 25% more expensive for almost 25% less pieces! I'm not good with percentages so I don't know how to reconcile those two, but that makes a big difference.
My numbers come from: 5 unpainted sets last time was $260, now it is $325 (25% more). Each set came with 34 pieces last time, now it is 26 (23.5% less contents).
That said, I'm much more interested in this one than the last, so that's why I bothered to calculate that . And I agree with you that these do likely cost more to make... but that almost 25% drop in contents is the really worrying part, not the price increase, to me.
That is significant, but as mentioned earlier, much of this might be due to it being 'underpriced' in the last KS, maybe?
Same thing happened to Mierce betwen their two KS campaigns...
Forar wrote: It's worth noting that in the first campaign, they gained those 19 extra tiles/pieces in 6 days.
We should gain 10 in the first 2.5 hours.
Yes, they are more expensive per piece and we're starting with fewer pieces, but we're also still in the literal opening gambit of the campaign. Sure, only one chance to make a first impression and whatnot, but I think it's worth waiting at least a few days, if not a few weeks, to see where we really start to settle into before comparing the 'value' found in this campaign.
As the mold costs are front loaded, it may simply be they want to have that all settled out before they can really justify throwing piles of extra pieces our way.
Well, for what it's worth I agree and am seriously considering backing for 3 sets! Just trying to make an informed decision is all
And I'm a big fan of people making informed choices. I do strive to keep my blind, ravenous fanboyism in check, but it's not always easy.
Obviously they sold tiles before and are selling tiles now, so it'd be disingenuous to try to paint this as some sort of "can't compare apples to oranges!" moment, but we were warned they'd be more expensive, and we have no idea what their end game is. Perhaps we'll end up with the same number of tiles (or more) but they decided they wanted to have more/bigger stretch goals later on, even when funding has dwindled from the first few days of insanity? Or found that they massively undervalued their first lot and just ate costs left and right to deliver a solid product all the same. Or any number of other potential causes.
I do think you have valid concerns, and it's awesome that you're thinking of backing despite having them. I sincerely hope that by the end, you find the value matches or exceeds your expectations, but for now it's all academic, and I'm simply trying to give my perspective (with the bias well recognized, of course).
RiTides wrote: iPaint, to respond to your comment from the last page, it's not just 15% more expensive, though- it's 25% more expensive for almost 25% less pieces! I'm not good with percentages so I don't know how to reconcile those two, but that makes a big difference.
My numbers come from: 5 unpainted sets last time was $260, now it is $325 (25% more). Each set came with 34 pieces last time, now it is 26 (23.5% less contents).
That said, I'm much more interested in this one than the last, so that's why I bothered to calculate that . And I agree with you that these do likely cost more to make... but that almost 25% drop in contents is the really worrying part, not the price increase, to me.
It's a valid concern, and I understand where you're coming from. The thing is, I'm not sure we should be comparing the dungeon tiles KS prices now that those sets are available at retail, since you'd be hard-pressed to find someone willing to sell the dungeon tiles w/ KS extras at cost a year later (though you potentially could). The retail price is $10 less for a single unpainted dungeon set, but has much fewer pieces than the same single dungeon set plus a single KS stretch-goals set.
I think you'd want to make the comparison to what you will be getting in this KS versus what you might potentially be getting later at retail. I imagine the caverns KS will be the single best time to get these sets for the best price per tile. We're still pretty early on in the campaign - let's see where things take us, then we can start making the comparisons once the campaign is nearing an end.
Just my $0.02.
~iPaint
iPaint's Workbench - a blog for all of my painting endeavors
Currently painting: 20mm WW2, 28mm Zombicide
In the pipeline: 28mm Reaper Bones, Dwarven Forge Game Tiles
The only thing holding me back from backing is that I actually don't really play many RPGs... but the look of these is fantastic.
If they ever make a sci-fi version (which could be used for, oh I don't know, SPACE HULK) they'll make a killing there, too!
Yeah, my tiles don't see a ton of table time, admittedly, but whenever I get the chance (an errant game of Malifaux) or can re-purpose them (for Hero Quest (not sure I'll have enough, at least until I get the caverns in), Through the Breach (Wyrd's Malifaux RPG) and Robotech's Miniatures game, etc), I'm happy to pop them out.
As someone new to wargaming of any sort, I essentially have zero terrain aside from some scraps and a couple Terraclips boxes, so that also helps me justify snagging a few here and there.
It also doesn't hurt that they stated they'd deliver in October and, unlike what feels like the vast majority of Kickstarters, actually delivered in October (mid Oct to be specific, even earlier than the 'end of the month' I was expecting). Doesn't mean this one won't hit a snag or two, but they've proven to be able to handle producing gak-tons of tiles and firing them off to thousands of backers once, and that alone has my respect and loyalty (on top of producing a top notch product, imo, of course).
I don't think there's much point crunching the numbers on the first day -- other than knowing that, yes, these tiles are more expensive. I think in three weeks we'll have a better idea!
I haven't played RPGs in years, but started painting mini's. The game tiles greatly improved the display of my fantasy miniatures, and the cavern tiles should look good with my Cthulhu ones.
iPaint, I hope to see another suggested painting scheme for these tiles! I may have to do more than just a quick drybrush to make them look good! (:
Using the rough 25% more expensive and 25% fewer tiles numbers, it works out to being around 66% more expensive than the dungeons KS (or only getting 60% as much for your money if you like to think that way, which is my personal preference.) Those numbers should shrink towards 25% and 80% respectively with stretch goals, but yeah... right now there's some decent sticker shock compared to last time.
Slightly more expensive be damned, my first Dwarven Forge KS was a tremendous value and delivered quickly for really high quality dungeon fun. The cavern tiles are even higher quality and I'm in for 2 sets right now, and may bump to three, as I did during the pledge manager. Plus the add on special sets are always fantastic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/12 19:07:38
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I agree that these are fantastic, and the creators seem totally awesome! Not to mention that they delivered the first KS on time... which has to be some kind of record given the size of the campaign.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/13 00:46:10
Hopefully you can find some cash in the next 4 weeks, or at least, a well funded friend willing to let you play with their (surprisingly heavy) terrain when it arrives.
Great info guys! Glad someone is number crunching. Similar stuff happened with BONES 2 where people were comparing every stretch goal and every 'this time in the campaign' and comparing value. I think it is valid info for people to know, but I also think there is a level of shrewd entitlement as well.
I am sure a company would like a million dollar KS which has a 5% profit than a 2 million dollar KS with no profit or even negative. Once the molds they want to get made are produced, if the rest of the increased pledges are not decreasing costs then a company can be like 'nah, that's cool... pledge if you want but no more value.'
Dwarven Forge was pretty open last time about costs if I remember right, so I am perfectly willing to let this get going for a week or so before I determine 'true value' for myself.
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Unlike boardgame KS, DF tiles aren't sold retail, so won't have the usual 30% discount boardgames have. I checked the DF website, and the KS1 base sets are the same price as the KS base sets BUT without the stretch goal items, so you're getting half as much stuff. (The add-ons are the same price as in KS1 if you buy multiple sets.)
I wouldn't have pledged if it wasn't for the quality of the sculpts. I'll probably paint them up more like my large miniatures than my drybrushed terrain. Also, these will be my first attempts at using that water effects stuff!
EDIT: Whoops -- looks like the KS1 SG added 50% more tiles, not 100%?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/13 03:26:14
Well, I just found these too attractive to resist... decided to put off an army-related purchase I was going to make that was going to use the funds from an ebay sale I made recently, since I don't expect Dreamforge Wave 3 to deliver until summer anyway (and I won't be able to use it until it does).
So I'm pledged for 3 sets unpainted though, as I'd like to do them in a lava theme.
Another factor to consider - they're still offering free US shipping, and these are heavy tiles. Heavier than the dungeon tiles and (maybe more importantly) considerably bulkier.
Anybody who backed the first KS knows how tightly and compactly the tiles fit into the boxes. That's really unlikely this time around, with the large organic shapes of the cavern pieces...
Well next stretch goal is a mapmaker program upgrade, has anyone used the software in its current state / is it useful? Hopefully the one after is, well you know, more tiles
judgedoug wrote: I'm in for 2 sets right now, and may bump to three, as I did during the pledge manager. Plus the add on special sets are always fantastic.
Were you able to change to the 3-set pledge level during the pledge manager, or did you have to pay single set add-on price? I.e. can you change pledge levels during the manager?
Also, how long did it stay open last time? Anyone can answer, of course
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/03/13 11:11:43
It's functional, but probably not $100k worth of programming functional
It gets the job done, but is very basic (click to rotate, no click remove function, just click-drag). It does save layouts though which is alright, but has nowhere near the utlity of PYMapper.
People are being truly over-receptive to these stretch goals when the stretch goals have been quite average.
Eh. A little cautious optimism during the first 22 hours (as in, we're not even a full day into the campaign yet) and giving the creators benefit of the doubt shouldn't be all that surprising. I'd be astounded if the majority of backers (especially the vocal ones) weren't also backers of the first campaign.
Which isn't to say that people shouldn't speak up if they're displeased. I joined late in the last one, but it's my understanding that they were quite receptive to constructive criticism.
For all my gushing fanboy love, if this campaign ends and the stretch goal based value hasn't brought it up to a level I'm happy with, I might just have to pass as well. Even if I drop from Painted to Dungeon Grey, $220 USD (currently $243 CAD) is a sizable chunk of change out of a budget I'm trying to keep reasonable while paying off some bills.
But that'll take weeks to determine, and the final "go/no go". Like, sure, I'm not super excited about a 100k SG for the dungeon planner that I don't use, and presumably another 50-100k for us to get back to more tiles, but with the draw down in funding it's possible the later ones account for this and will reflect the slower rate we may proceed at. Momentum in a campaign is definitely a thing, and keeping a slow but steady pace and backers feeling like they're progressing can be just as valuable as raking in funding hand over fist (especially when those last few days kick in and everyone is making their ultimate choices).
If nothing else, I imagine we'll see things pick up a bit once they begin revealing add ons.
Hey guys, so for those of you who were in on the first campaign, can you tell me:
1. Were you able to change pledge levels during the pledge manager (for instance, bump up to a 3 or 5 set pledge level from a 2 set pledge level)? Or were you locked in to your original pledge level and could only add add-ons / new pledges?
2. How long did the pledge manager remain open for, and when were you asked to pay the additional funds?
RiTides wrote: 1. Were you able to change pledge levels during the pledge manager (for instance, bump up to a 3 or 5 set pledge level from a 2 set pledge level)? Or were you locked in to your original pledge level and could only add add-ons / new pledges?
Someone in the comments (and an example was given for this campaign as well) where people could 'buy' extra tiers that were lower than their base tier, so if someone wanted 7 sets, they could pledge for 5 and add on the funds for a double as well.
Kind of makes sense if they want to emphasize people participating (at least to the highest tier they can) during the campaign itself, but leaving the option open for people to decide to toss in for an extra set or 2 (at a slightly less efficient price point) post campaign.
A glance at the old campaign's update section indicates that the Pledge Manager was open for approximately 10 days; from May 10th to May 20th.
The passage pieces are really different than what they had before, so much that it will make them look weird on the table together. However the old passage pieces were kind of hard to move figures around in. The elevation stuff for future stretch goals looks great.
. Copied below:
and am seriously considering backing for 3 sets! Just trying to make an informed decision is all 
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