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Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Marines do not build societies.

But their are plenty of societies, chaos pirates in the maelstrom, blood pact, beastmen on demon worlds, pawns of chaos was exclusively about the mortals following tzentch

Made by humans, not marines. Neither daemons.

There are few books about chaos humans. Pawns of Chaos was one. Another really good one is Daemon World, by Ben Counter. And the background book about the Sabbat worlds. Instead we have lots of stuff about a random group of marines doing stuff.

It is a pity. Human characters enrich the background a lot.

What are the Mundane parts of life on a Chaos planet?

Hollismason wrote:
What are the Mundane parts of life on a Chaos planet?

Doing the dishes, cleaning the house, working to death for your Chaos overlords, not that different from 21st century Earth Apart maybe from chasing the occasional deamon from your basement.

Hollismason wrote:
What are the Mundane parts of life on a Chaos planet?

Human stuff.

There are lots of worlds and civilizations with a chaos-worshipping society that have lasted for over 10000 years. The Sabbat Worlds or the worlds described in Daemon World, Pawns of Chaos or Blood Gorgons, to name a few. They built fortifications, waged war and developed enough technology to launch attacks using a space fleet. They still have medics, nurses, schools and engineers, they still loved and had children. They are humans.

If you think about it, Khorne is the "god of wrath". Many stable civilizations openly worshipped a god of wrath, Sparta and Rome being the obvious references. The Chaos Gods are in most senses the polytheistic gods. Nurgle = Nergal, Tzeentch = Thoth.

The Imperial Creed is rather obviously based on the Christian Creed during the Dark Age (angels, priests, warrior monks, the inquisition...). How did the monotheistic creed describe the pagan gods during the Dark Ages? They described them as demons. Incredible evil, focusing on human sacrifices and no moral at all.

In many senses, it is propaganda.

By the way: chaos does not cause sterility. It is the other way around: Nurgle is mostly about fertility.

 da001 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
What are the Mundane parts of life on a Chaos planet?

Human stuff.

There are lots of worlds and civilizations with a chaos-worshipping society that have lasted for over 10000 years. The Sabbat Worlds or the worlds described in Daemon World, Pawns of Chaos or Blood Gorgons, to name a few. They built fortifications, waged war and developed enough technology to launch attacks using a space fleet. They still have medics, nurses, schools and engineers, they still loved and had children. They are humans.

If you think about it, Khorne is the "god of wrath". Many stable civilizations openly worshipped a god of wrath, Sparta and Rome being the obvious references. The Chaos Gods are in most senses the polytheistic gods. Nurgle = Nergal, Tzeentch = Thoth.

The Imperial Creed is rather obviously based on the Christian Creed during the Dark Age (angels, priests, warrior monks, the inquisition...). How did the monotheistic creed describe the pagan gods during the Dark Ages? They described them as demons. Incredible evil, focusing on human sacrifices and no moral at all.

In many senses, it is propaganda.

By the way: chaos does not cause sterility. It is the other way around: Nurgle is mostly about fertility.

So basically, Nurgle is the god of reproduction and sex.

JubbJubbz wrote:
Marines do not build societies.

Salamanders.

All of Ultramar.

Almost every one of the Chaos Primarchs' daemon worlds.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

So basically, Nurgle is the god of reproduction and sex.

Aye. A god of life and the joy of reproduction.
Sex sounds slaaneshy, but is more of a Nurgle thing if done to create new life. More sex -> more life -> Nurgle happy.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:
Marines do not build societies.

Salamanders.

All of Ultramar.

Almost every one of the Chaos Primarchs' daemon worlds.

Vulcan and Guilliman were sort of exceptions. They cared about humanity. And they ruled over a civilization that was already there. And I still think they did it through humans.

Lorgar only cares about his search of "the truth". He doesn´t even lead his own legion most of the time, let alone the countless followers of his words.
Same goes for Perturabo.
Angron? Curze? Mortarion? Fulgrim? Alphy & bro? Nope.
As far as I know, Horus was a militar leader, he was not really interested in social stuff.

The only chaos primarch that was interested in sociology was Magnus.

Most marines focus on war. They are an elite combat force, incredibly small. Marines can form (really) small skirmish armies, strike forces or pirate raids. I am not sure they would waste their time as political leaders of, say, a world with 5 billion inhabitants. That´s a lot of work.

How can they build a civilization? A civilization is built by teachers, politicians, lawyers, artisans, artists... And not a few. You need lots and lots of them. Also, they are not even humans. They have a different set of emotions, it wouldn´t be a "human society".

Perturabo, Lorgar, Mortarion, Magnus and Fulgrim have all created their own desired societies on their daemon worlds, complete with communities and the like. Alpharius is dead (allegedly), Omegon is not a Daemon Prince, Curze is dead, Horus is dead. I don't really see why you would count those against the tally.

The definition of "society" is, more or less, a group of people living together in an ordered fashion. So, the Daemon Worlds of the people I've mentioned above certainly count as "societies".

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

So basically, Nurgle is the god of reproduction and sex.

Nurgle is the god of sex for reproductivity's sake (note that his daemons are the only ones capable of reproduction, albeit asexual, and his "wife" is a fertility goddess. Disease is fertility in and of itself too as it involves tons of breeding bacteria) and Slaanesh of sex for pleasure's sake. ....or both would be if GW actually brought sex up here and there, but GW normally tries to avoid sexual issues with a 10 ft pole.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

So basically, Nurgle is the god of reproduction and sex.

Nurgle is the god of sex for reproductivity's sake (note that his daemons are the only ones capable of reproduction, albeit asexual, and his "wife" is a fertility goddess. Disease is fertility in and of itself too as it involves tons of breeding bacteria) and Slaanesh of sex for pleasure's sake. ....or both would be if GW actually brought sex up here and there, but GW normally tries to avoid sexual issues with a 10 ft pole.

I'm not really sure that this is accurate. Traditionally, Nurgle is the Lord of Decay, that doesn't really imply a fertility god. Tzeentch is about change and growth, Nurgle is his opposite with decay and despair. I can see where you get the idea that he is creating life via disease, but warp born diseases aren't necessarily grounded in science in Biology. The Destroyer plague has been around for nearly 10,000 years and the imperium is not closer to curing it. This defies natural logic and suggests that the disease is no more "alive" in a biological sense than daemons themselves. Merely that it is a fragment of their parent god's manifestation.

Slaanesh would be the more likely candidate for a fertility god in my opinion. I think most people have the truth of it though, most of what we see of chaos is from a war perspective from their enemies point of view. It is more than likely that the gods have some other place in a functioning society. If they were all geared purely for war then it would be difficult to recruit quite as many followers as they do.

Slaanesh is in no way a fertility god. Its primary domains are excess and obsession.

Obsession is a primarily destructive force.

Nurgle, meanwhile, has been described as Fecund on several occasions... although really, his 'wife' should be Ynneath, not Isha.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Slaanesh is in no way a fertility god. Its primary domains are excess and obsession.

Obsession is a primarily destructive force.

Nurgle, meanwhile, has been described as Fecund on several occasions... although really, his 'wife' should be Ynneath, not Isha.

All of the Chaos Gods stand for destructive forces though, whether it be War, Decay, Scheming or Obsession. I'm just arguing that a society could be convinced that a god dedicated to endulging your desires would be the most likely candidate for fertility. It's fairly safe to assume that increase of libido and multiple partners would create more children. Pustulent buboes and weeping sores don't exactly scream "please have a baby with me." I'm not saying that any of the Chaos gods make for good parental worshippers, just that Slaanesh encourages behaviour which is directly linked to breeding.

"Nurgle is not a morose purveyor of despair and gloom, but a vibrant god of life and laughter." Page 14 C:CD 6th edition, but it has been more or less copy-pasted since Realm of Chaos. His realm is a garden, where new life is constantly created.

Slaanesh is Obsession, which can be related to anything, but I don´t see a direct relation between Slaanesh and fertility. Btw, obsession can be a constructive force too.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Perturabo, Lorgar, Mortarion, Magnus and Fulgrim have all created their own desired societies on their daemon worlds, complete with communities and the like. Alpharius is dead (allegedly), Omegon is not a Daemon Prince, Curze is dead, Horus is dead. I don't really see why you would count those against the tally.

The definition of "society" is, more or less, a group of people living together in an ordered fashion. So, the Daemon Worlds of the people I've mentioned above certainly count as "societies".

By this definition, I guess you are right.

I think the word "society" should include more things. Art, culture, science, tradition, religion, all that stuff. Mortarion is not creating a society: the people who manage to survive around him had, perhaps, eventually created a society, but it has been in spite of him. He is a destructive force. The same goes for the rest. I mentioned Curze and Horus because they didn´t show the slightest interest in sociology that we know of during their lives.

The only exception is Magnus, who actually cared about these things when he was alive. It is unclear if he still has an interest in human affairs after his ascension.

 da001 wrote:
"Nurgle is not a morose purveyor of despair and gloom, but a vibrant god of life and laughter." Page 14 C:CD 6th edition, but it has been more or less copy-pasted since Realm of Chaos. His realm is a garden, where new life is constantly created.

Lexicanum would apparently disagree with that assessment "Nurgle is one of the four major Ruinous Powers. He is the the oldest of the four, most probably because he is the God of Death and Decay and those two have been part of the galaxy since the beginning. His titles include the Plague Father, Fly Lord, Great Corruptor, Plague Lord, Master of Pestilence, Lord of Decay (the translation of his Dark Tongue name, Nurgh-leth) and represents morbidity, disease and physical corruption."

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:

 da001 wrote:
"Nurgle is not a morose purveyor of despair and gloom, but a vibrant god of life and laughter." Page 14 C:CD 6th edition, but it has been more or less copy-pasted since Realm of Chaos. His realm is a garden, where new life is constantly created.

Lexicanum would apparently disagree with that assessment "Nurgle is one of the four major Ruinous Powers. He is the the oldest of the four, most probably because he is the God of Death and Decay and those two have been part of the galaxy since the beginning. His titles include the Plague Father, Fly Lord, Great Corruptor, Plague Lord, Master of Pestilence, Lord of Decay (the translation of his Dark Tongue name, Nurgh-leth) and represents morbidity, disease and physical corruption."

I was quoting the Codex. And the background books like Liber Chaotica or Realm of Chaos.

Lexicanum is ok for some things, but not always.

I think they got it wrong here... or perhaps they don´t, and different sources claim different things about Nurgle. This happens a lot in 40k.

I think it is more a case of the latter. As far as I can remember Nurgle has always been the God of Decay and Despair. Remember, these are the emotions that feed him, not necessarily that he exhibits. I think that is the whole point, he preys on those who are in total despair, bringing them misery and suffering with disease until they cannot take anymore, he then offers them a way out. A kindly voice asking only for love and he will take away all the pain.

Tzeentch is the opposite, going for those with ambition and self assurance, giving them easy boost of assistance, however his gifts have hidden costs that the bearer must eventually repay when his soul is already the plaything of the gods.

Nurgle is the god of Death and Decay. However, he is an existentialist, not a nihilist.

The Nihilist says: "Everything is going to fail. There's no point doing anything. There's no point living. We may as well give up and die."

The Existentialist then replies: "Everything it going to fail. The future is a foregone conclusion. Therefore, there's no point worrying about it, lets do something fun!"

I think I may be using the wrong word, but existentialist is the one that comes to mind.

Not quite. IIRC, an Existentialist believes that individuals must define their own lives and create their own existence.

Fatalism sounds more like your example, as that involves accepting one's fate, rather than resisting it.

Nurgle is the god of life and death. He is the god of cycles. Of waxing and waning. He is thus the god of the cycle of life and death.

Thus he is both the god of death, and the god of life. Again, his daemons are the only ones capable of reproduction, all of his diseases are bacteria (life) based, his garden is constantly producing new life, etc.

The cycle of life and death is unchanging and eternal, thus ties to his whole "stagnancy" schtick, too.

That's also partially why he's called GrandFATHER Nurgle", and why his greater daemons dote on their nurglings and cultists in a fatherly manner. He's the only god that actually acknowledges being a parent.

Not true.

The Emperor is a parental deity who acknowledges his Sons and Daughters.

Horrors are capable of reproducing by mitosis.

It's never been confirmed that the Emperor is a God, however. Also doesn't make sense imo, considering the fluff.

Report to the Mistresses, you have clearly suffered a lapse in faith, Sister. Pray that it is only temporary.

.... incidentally, Nergal was not the god of sex or passion. That was Inanna.

Also known as Ishtar.

Nergal's wife wasn't the goddess of healing, either, she was the goddess of death and the dead. Well, until Nergal beat and raped her and claimed her kingdom in addition to his own title as Lord of a Thousand Plagues.

Ishtar to the Babylonians, but an incredibly popular deity in Sumeria, Inanna. Of course, when your religious services center around sexual activities, that isn't surprising.

Sumerians had a funky mythology.

They did. Plus, Enkidu was gay, which is kind of awesome.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Not true.

The Emperor is a parental deity who acknowledges his Sons and Daughters.

Horrors are capable of reproducing by mitosis.

Horror reproduction is more change than reproduction, I think. The initial parent becomes a set of beings that are completely different from the parent. It's more "change into two new beings" than "reproduce a new being". It can only be done once, too (again making it more "change into a new being that happens to be two of" rather than "reproduce a new being") with the new beings unable to reproduce further, unlike Nurglings who, as shown by Khulgath, are canonically capable of growing up into a great unclean one and then producing more nurglings (although it's EXTREMELY rare for a nurgling to live that long and grow that powerful, but still possible). Mitosis doesn't change the original cell or bacteria into a completely different being, unlike horror splitting, and it can be done multiple times (while horror splitting can only be done once. Blue Horrors can't split again)

And when I said "only god that addresses parenthood", I meant Chaos Gods born of emotion, showing that Nurgle is (in part) the emotion of parenthood (and thus, culturing life). Emperor doesn't count because he isn't representative of an emotion (far as we know). The Eldar gods are also not what I was referring to, as I was talking about Chaos Gods. The Eldar have their own equivalents in a way (Isha's basically their Nurgle, really, being a goddess of healing, fertility, and despair considering how often she's crying)

Another thing that makes Nurgle a god of life is that he's also a god of healing, ironically enough. There's a daemon prince in the fluff that was once a doctor and to this day still heals patients (although it's not exactly a very pleasant healing. Nurgle isn't one to give a crap about aesthetics as long as you're alive in the end). And there's a reason why the Dawn of War Nurgle guy is the only healer in the Chaos side. This is also partially why Nurgle's followers are able to survive their diseases and live such a freakishly long time in spite of those diseases.

Daemons don't have biological processes. They don't reproduce. Daemons themselves are simply spun out of the Warp, either by the command of their Patron Power or by the unknowable machinations of the Immaterium itself.

Nurgle's patriarchal attitude is separate from his actual portfolio. The former is just how the god acts, the latter is what he actually controls.

 Psienesis wrote:
Daemons don't have biological processes. They don't reproduce. Daemons themselves are simply spun out of the Warp, either by the command of their Patron Power or by the unknowable machinations of the Immaterium itself.

Nurgle's patriarchal attitude is separate from his actual portfolio. The former is just how the god acts, the latter is what he actually controls.

The gods are born of emotons and also symbolic of them. Hell, a lot of the times everything they do is supposed to be entirely metaphoric. Thus how nurgle acts is pretty much the same as what he controls, as the entire "act" of a god is symbolic and metaphoric in the first place. Nurgle's patriarchal attitude is NURGLE HIMSELF, because Nurgle himself is an attitude (an attitude is an emotion, after all, and Nurgle is an emotion, as are all the Chaos gods). That's the entire concept of what Chaos is. If Nurgle is constantly patriarchal, then that can only be because he is the emotion (and thus, god) of patriarchism.

That daemons don't biologically reproduce doesn't matter. The fact is, Nurgle's greater daemons symbolically or metaphorically reproduce. And that's what counts. If a great unclean one literally poops out nurglings and has them popping into existence from its pores, that's meant to metaphorically symbolize something, because that's what Chaos, born of the sheer energy of emotion and dreams, IS. And in this case, it symbolizes that Nurgle is the god of fertility and life.

Here's something quoted from the wiki, which I believe is taken from Realms of Chaos, although admittingly I'm not completely sure. Emphasis added by me.

"Even the process of creation is but the precursor to destruction and decay. The bastion of today is tomorrow's ruin, the maiden of the morning is the crone of the night, and the hope of a moment is but the foundation of regret. Though he is the creator of every infection and epidemic to have ever swept the universe, Nurgle is not a morose purveyor of despair and gloom, but a vibrant god of life and laughter. In death, there is life. Upon the decay of the living untold numbers of bacteria, viruses, insects and other carrion-feeders thrive. All life feeds upon other life to exist, and from every plague grows new generations, stronger and more virile than those who came before. Regeneration comes from decay, just as hope springs from despair. The greatest inspiration comes in the darkest moments; in times of crisis mortals are truly tested and driven to excel. "

Honestly, sheer process of elimination should make it obvious that Nurgle's the god of fertility. Chaos is supposed to be created from all emotions of mankind, so who else of the four gods would the emotion of birthing and raising up children go to? (well, I suppose it could go to some minor unnamed god, but considering how birth and parenthood is one of the most standard emotions there is for the sake of a species' survival, I highly doubt the god behind it would be minor). I'm sure that Nurgle is in love with the Eldar goddess of fertility is no coincidence, just like how Khorne being infuriated that Slaanesh was ripping away a portion of his own power (as stated by a GW employee) when Slaanesh tried to take away Khaine isn't. Nurgle's "love" of Isha, a fertility god, is a metaphor of him holding onto his own power that Slaanesh was trying to take.

He's not the god of Patriarchalism, or even of Family. His portfolio continues to be, and has always been, Plague, Pestilence, Disease, Decay and Entropy.

The emotions most closely-associated with his portfolio are grim perseverance, fatalism and dogged persistence. This contrasts him with Tzeentch, who's closest-associated emotion is hope, driving ambition and manic intensity. This is partly why these two gods hate one another.

That daemons don't biologically reproduce doesn't matter. The fact is, Nurgle's greater daemons symbolically or metaphorically reproduce. And that's what counts. If a great unclean one literally poops out nurglings and has them popping into existence from its pores, that's meant to metaphorically symbolize something, because that's what Chaos, born of the sheer energy of emotion and dreams, IS. And in this case, it symbolizes that Nurgle is the god of fertility and life.

I think you're extending the metaphor a bit farther than it supports.