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Glad all my vehicles are open-topped.

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:
Glad all my vehicles are open-topped.

That wouldn't help. Opentopped just gives you a whole lot of firepoints.
You very specifically can't use a firepoint to draw LoS for anything other than shooting.

So a squad of boys in a trukk can't see an infiltrator 13" behind the trukk?

 deviantduck wrote:
So a squad of boys in a trukk can't see an infiltrator 13" behind the trukk?

No they can't
As crazy as it sounds, you cannot use a Firepoint to draw LoS for any reason other than to shoot.
It's the same reason you can't use blessings/maledictions from a transport if the power requires line of sight.

Youre ignoring the true LoS part where the rulebook clearly says LoS is drawn from a model's eyes. A bunch of Orks aboard a trukk dont have anything hindering tLoS from their eyes to the infiltrating enemy squad; them being embarked as passengers in a vehicle doesnt change jack.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Youre ignoring the true LoS part where the rulebook clearly says LoS is drawn from a model's eyes. A bunch of Orks aboard a trukk dont have anything hindering tLoS from their eyes to the infiltrating enemy squad; them being embarked as passengers in a vehicle doesnt change jack.

Actually, it does.
The models do not exist on the game table - the embarkation rules require you to remove them.
Find permission to put them in the truck.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Youre ignoring the true LoS part where the rulebook clearly says LoS is drawn from a model's eyes. A bunch of Orks aboard a trukk dont have anything hindering tLoS from their eyes to the infiltrating enemy squad; them being embarked as passengers in a vehicle doesnt change jack.

Yes it does. Rules state when they embark they are removed from the table.
How can you draw line of sight from a model that isn't there?

Only through Firepoints can an embarked model draw line of sight. And they are very specifically barred from using them unless shooting.
Firepoint Line of Sight is much more restrictive than for vehicles or other models.

ha...just reading through the line of site rules, there isn't a line that I can find on p8 that actually grants infantry the 360 line of site, simply stating that you trace line of sight from their eyes to the target, you also only have permission to ignore members of your squad for shooting.

by the strict RAW you cannot use the barrels of the weapons for LoS either since they can only be used in the shooting phase. as such vehicles do not have any LoS at all by the book (although a logical case could be made of the view points of the driver since we know that there are crew within the vehicle and for most models said vehicle driver will be there, but that would technically have to be a house rule).

 nutty_nutter wrote:
ha...just reading through the line of site rules, there isn't a line that I can find on p8 that actually grants infantry the 360 line of site, simply stating that you trace line of sight from their eyes to the target, you also only have permission to ignore members of your squad for shooting.

True, there are rules that assume infantry have a 360* LoS, but no rule actually grants it.

p10 wrote:Whilst the direction a model is facing won't
impact its ability to shoot or charge into combat later in the
turn, it's always better to have it facing towards the enemy, just
as it would on a real battlefield.

If a model doesn't have a 360 degree LoS, it would impact its ability to shoot or charge later in the turn. Therefore, a model must have 360 degree LoS.

rigeld2 wrote:

p10 wrote:Whilst the direction a model is facing won't
impact its ability to shoot or charge into combat later in the
turn, it's always better to have it facing towards the enemy, just
as it would on a real battlefield.

If a model doesn't have a 360 degree LoS, it would impact its ability to shoot or charge later in the turn. Therefore, a model must have 360 degree LoS.

if the implication is that a 'model' has a 360 arc of view, then this also applies to vehicles, who are models and do not have any other form of LoS given unto them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
personally I would be inclined to treat turrets just as if it were the 'head' of an individual, in that if it could draw a LoS when it would shoot, then it has a line of site to fire, thus having LoS.

its seems an odd concept to allow infantry and deny vehicles.

no-one have anything to add to this?

it still seems up in the air at this point.

I still haven't located anything that prevents a vehicle having a 360 LoS, although I think that would be a bit daft.

in terms of LoS I'll stick with 'if a weapon could draw a LoS during the shooting phase, then that is the model's LoS for determining infiltrators'.

keeps it consistent with infantry LoS and doesn't result in daftness.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
I still haven't located anything that prevents a vehicle having a 360 LoS, although I think that would be a bit daft.

The fact that they don't have eyes, or even heads?

The fact that the vehicle rules explicitly say how to draw LoS for vehicles, and they don't include 360 degree LoS.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
I still haven't located anything that prevents a vehicle having a 360 LoS, although I think that would be a bit daft.

The fact that they don't have eyes, or even heads?

Does that mean I can infiltrate right next to spore mines?




This is classic bad GW rules writing - LOS for vehicles is just not defined for any purpose other than shooting. I've always played it that vehicles have LOS from their driver's viewport, and within any angle that could be within LOS of a turret or sponson mounted gun. In the case of open-topped vehicles, I count that it just has 360 degree LOS. As for people making that tired argument that models can't see behind them... get over it, that's daft.

Please, Spore Mines are clearly covered with small ocelli.

rigeld2 wrote:
The fact that the vehicle rules explicitly say how to draw LoS for vehicles, and they don't include 360 degree LoS.

then by your definition, despite you yourself quoting a page that models have a 360 LoS, and that vehicles have no other actual rule dictating how a vehicles LoS works, only how their weapons fire. that they either have a 360 or they don't have one.

on the basis that infantry LoS is mainly regarding shooting, and that any other time its based on their eyes, they cannot draw LoS through their own squad unless it's the shooting phase, so now we must deploy our infantry in a circular manner with men pointing in each direction to prevent infiltration, and we must envelope our tanks in a squishy infantry based formation.

OR

we can use a little sense and go with if it can draw LoS in the shooting phase, then it can draw LoS for the purposes of infiltration.


*****scratch this, p71 states that LoS for vehicles is determined by both the Barrel AND the mounting.**************


Automatically Appended Next Post:
so, by p71 LoS ruling, turrets, with a 360 arc of vision, have a 360 arc of vision for LoS.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Please, Spore Mines are clearly covered with small ocelli.

That's not so clear to me.

In any case, I just meant it as a jab at GW for writing such human-centric rules when a lot of their models are so alien.

we can use a little sense and go with if it can draw LoS in the shooting phase, then it can draw LoS for the purposes of infiltration.


*****scratch this, p71 states that LoS for vehicles is determined by both the Barrel AND the mounting.**************


Automatically Appended Next Post:
so, by p71 LoS ruling, turrets, with a 360 arc of vision, have a 360 arc of vision for LoS.

That's how I have always interpreted the rules. This whole "oh, it has LOS in shooting phase but not during deployment" is a distinction without a difference.

Those bumps along the tentacle? Totally ocelli.