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Gotcha. Well, there are alternatives in the infantry model area too but not a lot alien types. If someone wanted to make an IG army, they could use alternatives to do it cheaply. Even marines, if you use the Dreamforge games models in that way. I guess this stuff always gets rehashed in these threads.

My point is that you can play GW games without ever buying a GW model. If you're wedded to GW, you're out of luck unless you get a good trade or something.

 phatonic wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
That's still $650 for an average sized list, not to mention the cost of the rules...

That's still kinda insane pricing...

nothing is free... look at the avatar you use.. those models they produce cost more than GW ones. how come you want support them and not GW?
Sure might be a few models you think but then you want more and more and woops i went over the GW budget.

It's not cost, it's value.
I have no problem spending absurd amounts of money on the hobby, and my bank account can prove that
My problem is with it costing $650 + another $100 or so for the rules to get the minimum needed to play an average sized game at ebay prices when most other games on the market will get you more than an average sized game for $300 at retail and are comparable quality models.

I threw $500 at the Raging Hero's Kickstarter because it looked like it would be a good number of great models, I bought $200 or so bucks worth of Infinity because it was on sale and again, they are amazing models. Spartan Games models aren't as good but still better than GW imo by virtue of being resin if nothing else, and an average game is about 1000 points. I got 2,300 points for $250.
Wargames Factory vikings are on par with GW quality, not as many options as the new sterngaurd but then the new witch elves had 0 options so yeah.. average out pretty well. 32 models for $22.

I like lots of cheap models, I like really good expensive models. Imo GW sells lots of cheap models at expensive prices.

Well value is a whole nother story everyone values stuff diffrently but then again as mentiond earlier No hobby is cheap some might be cheaper but still not ¨cheap¨ Well exept that one you go around and collect stuff for free

 agnosto wrote:
Gotcha. Well, there are alternatives in the infantry model area too but not a lot alien types. If someone wanted to make an IG army, they could use alternatives to do it cheaply. Even marines, if you use the Dreamforge games models in that way. I guess this stuff always gets rehashed in these threads.

My point is that you can play GW games without ever buying a GW model. If you're wedded to GW, you're out of luck unless you get a good trade or something.

Yeah, there's some armies you can play without touching a GW model because there's good quality alternatives, but certainly not all.

Even an IG army, I already have one, but if I were starting a new one I probably wouldn't use GW Cadians and Catachans... however I would be tossing up between 3rd party suppliers and DKOK, which are even more expensive than the Cadians and Catachans.

That's why I made the comment earlier about quality, sometimes it's hard to swallow GW purchases not because of the volume needed but also the fact you often are getting mediocre models for your money. It'd be less painful for me to buy a sexy DKOK army than an ugly Catachan army.

Likewise, I'd rather burn money on Perry models than Bretonnians, not because of the price but simply because they are superior models.

 phatonic wrote:
Well value is a whole nother story everyone values stuff diffrently but then again as mentiond earlier No hobby is cheap some might be cheaper but still not ¨cheap¨ Well exept that one you go around and collect stuff for free

I dunno, X-wing is what, $60-150 for a 100 point (average) list?
That's pretty damn cheap even if its inclusion in 'the hobby] is questionable what with the prepainted models.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Yeah, there's some armies you can play without touching a GW model because there's good quality alternatives, but certainly not all.

Even an IG army, I already have one, but if I were starting a new one I probably wouldn't use GW Cadians and Catachans... however I would be tossing up between 3rd party suppliers and DKOK, which are even more expensive than the Cadians and Catachans.

That's why I made the comment earlier about quality, sometimes it's hard to swallow GW purchases not because of the volume needed but also the fact you often are getting mediocre models for your money. It'd be less painful for me to buy a sexy DKOK army than an ugly Catachan army.

Likewise, I'd rather burn money on Perry models than Bretonnians, not because of the price but simply because they are superior models.

If I were getting into IG...

I'd use Dreamforge Eisenkerhn for troops; Miniature Market, here in the US (but they ship internationally) usually has them inexpensive @ 20 man unit for around $26-30 with tons of options. Great detailed models.

They don't look bad, but really not an aesthetic I like. DKOK look so much better in my eyes, none of the DKOK lookalikes come close.

If I didn't do DKOK, I'd probably do either a Victoria Minis army with slouch hats or maybe just get a Bolt Action Wehrmacht army and say it "counts as" Imperial Guard.

Not so much a price issue as personal taste

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
They don't look bad, but really not an aesthetic I like. DKOK look so much better in my eyes, none of the DKOK lookalikes come close.

If I didn't do DKOK, I'd probably do either a Victoria Minis army with slouch hats or maybe just get a Bolt Action Wehrmacht army and say it "counts as" Imperial Guard.

Not so much a price issue as personal taste

Then there's the lazy slob in me that says "Get the dust pre-painted miniatures..."

Convert the biovores.

Swap stuff (we now have three flyrants, but only ever paid $30 for a metal one, and $8 for a finecast body, all the rest were swaps).

Buy from discounters.

You can probably get that cost down by 40%.

 Deuce11 wrote:
I just priced out my hypothetical 1500 Nids list... $800 retail after tax. This does not include a single pot of paint; not a single rule book; just the models.

GW, are you kidding?! How the hell am i supposed to sell my friends on this?!

Help me out, Dakka. How do you work this into a conversation with a possible new player?

The more I thought about these comments the more I realised several things about your situation.

1. Despite your gripe about prices you want to play. You may have bought models already but regardless - you have personally made the decision that you want to play for what ever reason. Mentally, you are committed.

2. The need to 'sell it' to your friends tells me that they are not invested at all and that they may have even shown a reluctance when you first mentioned it. Now you are worried that the perceived cost vs return will tip the balance and you will be left with no one to play. Mentally they have not engaged in the want to play.

3. Ultimately, if you manage to sell it to them and they are not as engaged as you, you then not only loose opponents but possibly friends as they can lay the cost to them at your feet for getting into the game to begin with. Some people can get bitter and that can get ugly.

Personally, I would speak to them, tell them you really like the idea and want to play. Get honest feedback from them. If they want to play - no sales skills are required. If they say no, you may have to adjust your expectations

I'm going to focus on 'selling' your friends to play.

I would start with the DV starter set whenever I can, the rulebook alone is worth the investment. Let your friend build some models, even paint a few to see if your friend is interested at all.

If your friend is hooked to the hobby and still want to start nids. Start by getting just the nid codex. let your friend read through and enjoy the pretty pictures, if he is still commited. I would start by buying a single MC model that he likes at a discount from FLGS. Let him really at a sense of building a real model kit (not DV snap ons). Teach your friends tips and tricks into building a good model. If he is commited to that, find him a good deal from ebay. and start with small games like Kill Team.

If your firned reached this stage he should be fairly hooked by him, you can also sprinkle some BL books as well in the process.

 Massaen wrote:

 Deuce11 wrote:
I just priced out my hypothetical 1500 Nids list... $800 retail after tax. This does not include a single pot of paint; not a single rule book; just the models.

GW, are you kidding?! How the hell am i supposed to sell my friends on this?!

Help me out, Dakka. How do you work this into a conversation with a possible new player?

The more I thought about these comments the more I realised several things about your situation.

1. Despite your gripe about prices you want to play. You may have bought models already but regardless - you have personally made the decision that you want to play for what ever reason. Mentally, you are committed.

2. The need to 'sell it' to your friends tells me that they are not invested at all and that they may have even shown a reluctance when you first mentioned it. Now you are worried that the perceived cost vs return will tip the balance and you will be left with no one to play. Mentally they have not engaged in the want to play.

3. Ultimately, if you manage to sell it to them and they are not as engaged as you, you then not only loose opponents but possibly friends as they can lay the cost to them at your feet for getting into the game to begin with. Some people can get bitter and that can get ugly.

Personally, I would speak to them, tell them you really like the idea and want to play. Get honest feedback from them. If they want to play - no sales skills are required. If they say no, you may have to adjust your expectations

A lot of people WANT to play and then decide against it when they find out it's $125 just for the rules, plus another $400 or so for a starting army (I am purposely not counting Kill Team and 500 point beginner forces here, as those only last so long), plus another $100-200 for paints and supplies. And that's assuming you already have a place to play or it's easily another $100 or more for terrain bits and bobs. It's not about being "invested" in playing, it's about whether the huge price tag to get started makes you say "Feth it, I'll go play a game that's cheaper to get into" instead.

Yeah, it is expensive...

$500 to a $1000 for a mould blank, a couple hundred hour's of a machinist and pantograh machine's time at around $50/ hour, so say$10,000, for a sprue of 10 to 12 figures. Can make several thousand sprues or more, but eventually integrity of mold is ruined, so need to make another mould bank...

And your masters need to be flawless and designed to lift out of the mould without undercuts. After that you're running under several cents a figure ($1 a sprue ) even at current plastic costs. The packaging on those GW miniatures very likely runs way higher than the actual figures.

So that $30 box you bought might cost gw $5 to 10 to make....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look at this comparison-

Gears if war board game, 200 cards, 30 plastic figures and 75 tokens... $80. Lets say 50% for cards & tokens, that means 30 figs (28mm scale) cost $40.00, in essence, for a bag of toy soldiers.

Gw 20 termies, 280 components with which to make 20 Termagants. $44.00. However, all those bits allow you to make alternate models. Sell left over bits on ebay....




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, I remember the days when 1k army would cost me $200, and my 2k army was about $400ish....

WayneTheGame wrote:@ansacs:

Every game I've ever played has been a pick-up game at a game store, so you never know who is going to turn up before they actually do, and then you have to agree on points and the like. It was very rare for anything to be preplanned outside of a campaign or tournament game. So if somebody shows up who only wants a 2,000 point battle, and you only have 1,000, then you aren't getting a game in unless they change their mind which, depending on what they want to play, they might not.

If this is the problem then I would 1) makes some friends by going out for some lunch or something with some of the people, friends are better than acquaintances. 2) play 2 (500+1250 pts) against 1 (1750 pts) or play triumph and treachery style or perhaps try this http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/583050.page

Interesting thread.

Almost one of those @#*$(^ GW Prices! threads, but not quite.

Recently, I had a conversation with two friends who wanted to start gaming again.

Friend 1 -
F1 - Dude, I got some free time, want to get back into gaming again, what are you playing?
Me - Lots of stuff, I think you would like 40k however, its really cool and I think you would enjoy the models.
F1 - Awesome, would love to learn to play it, have not seen it in years.
Me: Just a warning, its a bit pricy, will be at least $400 just to get in, or more...
F1: Man, I got four kids....dinner is a $100. $400 is nothing. When can we start...

Another friend who is struggling a bit financially....

F2: Hey man, think I might have some time to get into gaming.
Me: Um....I play 40k, but its kind of pricey.....hey, you still like Star Wars?
F2: Yeah, you playing that xwing game?
ME: Yeah, a starter is only like $40 and we can play with that, you can borrow a few of my minis as well.
F2: Yeah, I should be able to save up for that by the end of the month if I like it.
Me: cool...

So yes, 40k needs a starter (I been saying this for years, but that is another topic) and other games have a perceived lower price buy in (magic, warmachine, etc.) but get just as expensive in the long run.

I don't play golf or polo at the nearby country club or fly jets for fun, and I would not expect all of my friends to be able to afford 40k.

I'm actually okay-ish with the prices. Like the OP, it becomes a problem because most of my friends can't afford to throw that sort of money into it and therefore I'm much less likely to pursue the hobby,

But all that's been said by others. The thing that really winds me up are the cheap little tricks that GW pulls to get you to spend more. Need an exarch? Buy a pack of aspects just to get her. Want Storm Guardians? Buy a full set of regular guardians, write off all their arms and pay for a storm guardian "upgrade kit". I remember when you used to be able to buy guardians that were one or the other, no waste. There are all sorts of instances where you can only get what you want by over-buying to get extra stuff you don't. It's like how some places in America will sell you hotdogs in ten packs and hotdog buns in twelve packs - the idea is to just keep you buying more than you need.

davethepak wrote:

Friend 1 -
F1 - Dude, I got some free time, want to get back into gaming again, what are you playing?
Me - Lots of stuff, I think you would like 40k however, its really cool and I think you would enjoy the models.
F1 - Awesome, would love to learn to play it, have not seen it in years.
Me: Just a warning, its a bit pricy, will be at least $400 just to get in, or more...
F1: Man, I got four kids....dinner is a $100. $400 is nothing. When can we start...

If you were a good friend the conversation would have continued....

Me: Oh, and also it'll take several hundred hours to assemble and paint.
F1: Oh, umm, you heard the part about four kids, yeah? How about we just play Xbox instead?

Makumba wrote:
But no one plays 500-750 pts. If your starting then maybe they will let you play 2-3 games at 1k points , if people like you or if your someones sibling .But after two months everyone is going to expect to play someone with a normal 1500 legal army .
I find the arguement about it being easier laughable . at 750 all the deathstars still fit in to the game and work perfectly .

Have near 4k nids, over 2k Tau, and 2k SMurfs, I prefer sub 1500pt games. And enjoy 500-750 games.

Something I like to consider is resale value - If you decide you don't like the hobby you can probably piece out your army and, as long as you magnetized the important stuff and didn't do any crazy conversions, you could probably get at least half your money back, especially with GW's prices always going up.

Btw, the Tyranid swarm seems to actually be a pretty good value for the new Nids. Just fyi.

Also, in my 40k golden years my friends and I played 1000 pt battles. Smaller games are a great.

The Tyranid Swarm is great value compared to buying all that stuff retail, even more so if you get a discount from your FLGS. Plus everything except the Rippers are useful. Gargoyles are great, Carnifices with double devourers are awesome, lots of Termagants are necessary if you want to get a Tervigon later or simply want to field a swarm list, and Hormagaunts with spinefists make for excellent Termagants, or you could keep tham as hormies if you want to run Endless Swarm.

Use craigslist/ebay and make searches about every 2 weeks. People often don't know what they have and you can make a steal, easy. The best buy I ever got was a fella who I think had just married and his wife made him get rid of the hobby, so it was a "get this off my hands thing."

In this purchase, I got a Trygon, 2 flyrants, a hive guard, two tyrant guards, 3 oop raveners, 12 oop genestealers, ~ 20 termagants, some gargs, some biovores, and a ton of bits. It ended up about 1 dollar a model, but retail cost around $550. Of course, it took about 2 months to clean all the parts to bring the new biomass to the fold, but it was an excellent purchase for 60 dollars.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Massaen wrote:

 Deuce11 wrote:
I just priced out my hypothetical 1500 Nids list... $800 retail after tax. This does not include a single pot of paint; not a single rule book; just the models.

GW, are you kidding?! How the hell am i supposed to sell my friends on this?!

Help me out, Dakka. How do you work this into a conversation with a possible new player?

The more I thought about these comments the more I realised several things about your situation.

1. Despite your gripe about prices you want to play. You may have bought models already but regardless - you have personally made the decision that you want to play for what ever reason. Mentally, you are committed.

2. The need to 'sell it' to your friends tells me that they are not invested at all and that they may have even shown a reluctance when you first mentioned it. Now you are worried that the perceived cost vs return will tip the balance and you will be left with no one to play. Mentally they have not engaged in the want to play.

3. Ultimately, if you manage to sell it to them and they are not as engaged as you, you then not only loose opponents but possibly friends as they can lay the cost to them at your feet for getting into the game to begin with. Some people can get bitter and that can get ugly.

Personally, I would speak to them, tell them you really like the idea and want to play. Get honest feedback from them. If they want to play - no sales skills are required. If they say no, you may have to adjust your expectations

A lot of people WANT to play and then decide against it when they find out it's $125 just for the rules, plus another $400 or so for a starting army (I am purposely not counting Kill Team and 500 point beginner forces here, as those only last so long), plus another $100-200 for paints and supplies. And that's assuming you already have a place to play or it's easily another $100 or more for terrain bits and bobs. It's not about being "invested" in playing, it's about whether the huge price tag to get started makes you say "Feth it, I'll go play a game that's cheaper to get into" instead.

I want to race cars - excellent! Can I afford too? If I really want too I will invest time in discovering what costs are involved, time required, life impact and so on. I have to decide if the cost is less than the value.

Saying I want to race cars is not engaged - it's a fleeting thought of "that would be cool" if I am serious I would - like the OP - invest time in learning more. The friends are not at this stage yet.

Speaking for myself, my car hobby costs way more than 40k

Start small. Explain the basics with one model on one model.

Scale it up to two small man squads and a leader.

Next two 'proper' squads, a leader and maybe a vehicle or FMC. At this stage, where they are playing 1 HQ, 2 troops and supplementary units it is a good time to inform them they are now a 'proper' 40k player!

I think it is wise to set assembly/painting objectives for the newbie and learn the rules for their most recently completed item as they go.

This way they can learn everything in proper detail, and enjoy their progress assembling/painting their models. Starting at 1500 points is just jumping in at the deep end, with no idea what they are doing and the daunting prospect of having a mountain of grey sprue to deal with before they can even get their first game in.

Check out example mission 4: Battleforce Recon in the main rulebook, it is excellent for games that uses forces roughly equivalent to a battleforce + HQ sized army.

Lots of great info here.

As a take away I think I am, when the time comes, going to encourage Kill team and about 500 points worth to start. Hopefully that can increase to 1000 in a few months and 1250 in the first year. I intend on sharing my ruleboook so the only rules to buy will be a codex which will be ebays hopefully.

I think this topic is actually worth more discussion: "How to bring a new player into the hobby that has never even heard of wargaming before.'

Convincing someone with limited funds to start a hobby like 40k in one fell swoop is a lot to ask. I was lucky enough to discover (after years, and years, and more years of my army being on the shelf) that a group of my friends played 40k and I never knew about it. I already had a decent number of models and could play right away, but had I stumbled into it without a background I'm not sure how far I would have gotten.

Another one of my friends has played a few games with us and wants to start an army, but so far he's picked up a squad of Dire Avengers and that's been it. If I can at least convince him to get one more thing we can start playing kill team, which was the plan all along, but I'd never expect him to sink enough money into an army to start playing 1500 pts with us right away.

 rabidguineapig wrote:
Convincing someone with limited funds to start a hobby like 40k in one fell swoop is a lot to ask. I was lucky enough to discover (after years, and years, and more years of my army being on the shelf) that a group of my friends played 40k and I never knew about it. I already had a decent number of models and could play right away, but had I stumbled into it without a background I'm not sure how far I would have gotten.

Another one of my friends has played a few games with us and wants to start an army, but so far he's picked up a squad of Dire Avengers and that's been it. If I can at least convince him to get one more thing we can start playing kill team, which was the plan all along, but I'd never expect him to sink enough money into an army to start playing 1500 pts with us right away.

Let's be clear: EVERYBODY has limited funds. $500 - 1000 dollars on toy soldiers and necessary hobby supplies is not a small sum of money. That is a months rent for most, generally more than a car payment. So, although the cost can be reasoned out to smaller sums per hours of enjoyment or per year or as compared to other hobbies (people try to compare everything from a deck of cards to a new set of golf clubs plus country club membership), it is still money that needs to be spent on this specific product and it is a total that gives people pause.

Using alternative/abbreviated rule sets like Kill Team seems to me like the way to go.

you can play 40k for fairly inexpensive, or you can play for fairly expensive.

It is Possible to make a nid army for ~ $500 usd retail, no discounts.

2 Swarm Boxes
- 80 Termagants, 80 Hormagants, 20 Genestealers, 20 Gargoyles, 2 carnifex.
1 HT
2 Venomthropes
2 Zoanthropes

= ~1750 points before upgrades. If you are clever and make 2 of the genestealers into Broodlords, after upgrades you have a 2k army.

Just saying

Considering how many models that is, and paint, and codex and time you could space out buying it over time.

its not like you are going to even assemble all of those models in a week. If you have the time to assemble those models in a week and your complaining about $ I suggest finding any job and spending half your time you planned to assemble stuff by earning money to buy stuff.

Also you could start out small and then build up, smaller points games are fun too, and if you have friends you can do team fights so the total points are higher but each person is only needing half as many points.

Download the codex and the rule book for a start

Maybe a super small escalation league? you can play 40K at a low points value just to get the basics down at least.

500 - 750 points of models can still be a great game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deuce11 wrote:
Using alternative/abbreviated rule sets like Kill Team seems to me like the way to go.

Fantastic Idea!

its not like you are going to even assemble all of those models in a week. If you have the time to assemble those models in a week and your complaining about $ I suggest finding any job and spending half your time you planned to assemble stuff by earning money to buy stuff.

those could be glued on a single day . everything is plastic . Also the problem with the list is that it doesn't have any of the stuff that is actualy needed to play . Spending 500$ is even worse then spending twice as much and having one that works. In the second case only those with enough cash can play the game , but at least they can play it , because in the first case your still spending a ton of cash on something that will get destoyed by every army.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Convert the biovores.

Swap stuff (we now have three flyrants, but only ever paid $30 for a metal one, and $8 for a finecast body, all the rest were swaps).

Buy from discounters.

You can probably get that cost down by 40%.

If you ever get any Hive Guard, you can convert up 3 Biovores for about 50% off. In the same link, there's another post where, for each Carnifex and Warriors box you have, you can convert up a full Biovore out of completely spare parts. It's awesome, I've already made up 1 and have 3 more on the way. Converting to save $$$ is also an overlooked, but fun, aspect of the hobby.

There's also other money saving tricks with some kits, like buying torso bits to double up on a kit with lots of options in it (eg, the Hive Tyrant kit), saving yourself over 50% of the price.

As for other things, the swap shop is probably the cheapest way to get the bulk of your stuff, and you can often find things NoS, unpainted or primed. Following that, ebay is usually pretty good too, I picked up 3 Fexes for $25 each a couple years ago (they're probably more than that now though since they aren't considered total crap anymore).