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The Mechanicum is a separate entity from the Imperium. It is an Imperium-within-the-Imperium, as it predates the Imperium itself, but is tied to it by ancient treaty, and the fact that neither could survive without the other.

Yet, they venerate the Machine God, and view the Emperor as the Omnissiah... so is just as theocratic, really.

The Emperor said there are no gods, which makes him an atheist. The fact that he knew about powerful aliens in another dimensions does not make him any less an atheist.

He said there are no gods after witnessing the powers of the Chaos Gods and using them to build his Primarchs (rather than having some other genetic scientists figure it out, as it used to be, but I digress...) which, of course, we all know how that went down. This strikes me less as an admission of atheism and more just a flat-out lie to starve the Chaos Gods of veneration (he did know how they work, after all). As he knew these things to exist, the claim that they are "some powerful, extra-dimensional aliens that behave in every way like gods, but aren't" is more-closely matching to the definition of agnosticism.

The current vibe of the Emperor-as-Atheist just doesn't jive with the things we have seen him do, nor his lassiez-faire attitude towards the billions of humans worshipping him as one. You'd have thought he'd have tried to stop it (or, alternately, he foresaw the need for such things, and encouraged them to continue by his hands-off approach), and this was further enforced in his censure of the Word Bearers, who he humbled not because they were building temples to him and promulgating the worship of him, but because they were spending too much time doing so.

 Manchu wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
The Mechanicus officially sees the Emperor as an aspect of the Omnisiah and thus officially considers him to be divine.

I have been looking for a citation to that effect for some time. Would you kindly provide your source; the title and page number would be appreciated. A direct quotation with the citation would be even better.

Well, lexicanum says it's stated on page 120-122 of the 4th Edition rulebook as well as the Index Astartes, apparently.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cult_Mechanicus#.Ux4ZBDOYaUl

 Psienesis wrote:
The Mechanicum is a separate entity from the Imperium.

It is clear that the Martian empire is separately sovereign from the Terran empire. What is more confusing is whether the "Imperium" consists of the union between the two or is just another name for the Terran empire. The way the word "Imperium" is used in the recent Knights Codex seems to indicate the latter. But the fact that the Fabricator General is one of the permanent High Lords seems to indicate the former.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yet, they venerate the Machine God, and view the Emperor as the Omnissiah... so is just as theocratic, really.

Only some tech priests believe the Emperor is the Omnissiah. Even so, the Martian state is run by the government of the Fabricator General rather than the Omnissiah, the identity of which is controversial.

 Psienesis wrote:
to starve the Chaos Gods of veneration

They do not require veneration; just the relevant emotional experience. For example, the Eldar did not worship Slaanesh into existence.

his censure of the Word Bearers, who he humbled not because they were building temples to him and promulgating the worship of him, but because they were spending too much time doing so.

It was actually both, which was what really offended Lorgar (failure on all fronts).

The only evidence we have of the Emperor not opposing his worship is all those years in the Golden Throne while the Ecclesiarchy went public and grew into the most pervasive Imperial institution. But that also assumes the Emperor of conscious of anything happening in real space (or at all for that matter), which we don't know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TiamatRoar wrote:
lexicanum says

Lexicanum often uses nearly direct quotations so I will be sure to look this up. Thanks!

It is clear that the Martian empire is separately sovereign from the Terran empire. What is more confusing is whether the "Imperium" consists of the union between the two or is just another name for the Terran empire. The way the word "Imperium" is used in the recent Knights Codex seems to indicate the latter. But the fact that the Fabricator General is one of the permanent High Lords seems to indicate the former.

Yeah. Not sure we can really answer this question, as it's not clearly answered in the fluff, to my knowledge. I would not exactly take Titanicus to heart and claim that few Tech-Priests recognize the Omnissiah... that seems to be the majority of Tech-Priests, at least of those who spare a processing cycle thinking about such things. There are also the apostate Tech-Priests who follow the Ecclesiarchy instead, one of the more interesting minor factions presented in FFG's materials.

They do not require veneration; just the relevant emotional experience. For example, the Eldar did not worship Slaanesh into existence.

Sort of. It can be argued that engaging in acts that a given Chaos God personifies is worshipping that Chaos God... Khorne, after all, is worshipped on the battlefield, not within temples and churches. This might be an important distinction... or might be that many cultures have been going about it all wrong for a long time.

We also have to consider the possibility that this is how all gods work in the setting, and that all of the previous gods of humanity (and everyone else) have had their own reflections/entities in the Warp that simply faded out as the number of people adhering to whatever things those were formed of dropped. Or that most of the gods of humanity throughout history have been reflections of/aspects of one or more Chaos Gods or similar Warp Entities.

The only evidence we have of the Emperor not opposing his worship is all those years in the Golden Throne while the Ecclesiarchy went public and grew into the most pervasive Imperial institution. But that also assumes the Emperor of conscious of anything happening in real space (or at all for that matter), which we don't know.

Except for all of those billions of people worshipping Him during the Great Crusade era. He didn't stop them then, either.

 Psienesis wrote:
There are also the apostate Tech-Priests who follow the Ecclesiarchy instead, one of the more interesting minor factions presented in FFG's materials.

That could be a minefield. The belief that the God-Emperor and Omnissiah are the same being is called the Moirae Heresy and was a very big deal. I doubt there is much tolerance on either side for Tech Priests who believe anything close.

 Psienesis wrote:

They do not require veneration; just the relevant emotional experience. For example, the Eldar did not worship Slaanesh into existence.

Sort of.

No, not sort of. Engaging in sexually depraved acts might metaphorically qualify as worshiping Slaanesh but it is not literally the same thing. When Astartes wage war, they are not worshiping Khorne. The battle rage they feel while doing so, however, strengthens his power in the Warp.

 Psienesis wrote:
Except for all of those billions of people worshipping Him during the Great Crusade era. He didn't stop them then, either.

I'd like to see evidence that (1) there were billions involved in that underground cult, (2) that the Emperor knew about it, and (3) that even if he did know about it he wasn't way too busy with something far more important.

No, not sort of. Engaging in sexually depraved acts might metaphorically qualify as worshiping Slaanesh but it is not literally the same thing. When Astartes wage war, they are not worshiping Khorne. The battle rage they feel while doing so, however, strengthens his power in the Warp.

Which is exactly what I mean. The Chaos Gods draw power from the things their portfolios encompass, whether you (the person doing the things that feed them) want them to or not. You are, in a sense, worshipping them by doing the things that they are in control of, because that's how things work.

This aspect of them is a throwback to the Moorecock Order vs Chaos stuff in the various incarnations of the Eternal Champion series. The only way to beat the Chaos Gods is to become a being of Order, which is static and unchanging (and, ultimately, unthinking and unfeeling).

So it would strike me as odd that the Emperor would claim atheism when he can see these four (or more) things functioning like this, feeding directly on specific emotional states/concepts, and gaining power from mortal actions in the material universe, their strength waxing and waning as the instances of these states ebbs and flows.

He might claim that, while this is freaky-weird and obviously powerful psychic ability, yadda yadda... that doesn't make them gods per se... but that's an agnostic belief, not an atheist belief.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ecclesiarchy#.Ux4wVc7EGEo

Just skip down the history section there. That he knew about it? The guy lived and breathed his precognitive abilities. I would need proof that he *didn't* know about it, considering that these cults were on Terra, as well as other worlds throughout the fledgling Imperium. As for #3, I cannot say that he did or did not have something "more important" to deal with, as that's a subjective assessment.

The emotions of real space beings feed Warp entities whether or not real space beings are aware of those entities.

Keeping Chaos a secret would not weaken it in that regard.

Also, understanding that the Ruinous Ones are powerful does not make the Emperor less of an atheist.

Unless you believe the Emperor planned the HH then you can't really claim anything much about his precognitive abilities.

I think the Emperor foresaw the Heresy, but believed, right up to the very end there, that he could "save" his favored son. He doubted his psychic abilities, or ignored them, in favor of his humanity.

This was, obviously, a mistake.

That is a poor testament to his alleged precognitive abilities.

Not at all. I think he knew just about everything, how it was going to go down, but held out that sliver of hope that his visions were, somehow, wrong or that there was something he could do to avert what he was prognosticating.

I believe the Emperor is the embodiment of all of the things that make up Humanity, for good or ill.

So he knew about the early Imperial Cult, knew the HH would happen, but remained willfully blind as to the outcome of both? That opinion stretches credulity past the breaking point.

Much more likely, he did not know about the nascent Cult because he was incredibly busy working on the Golden Throne. If he is too busy to personally turn back the traitors then he is too busy to care about a few zealots in the loyalist fleet.

In any case, both of our points are speculative. There is, so far as I know, no evidence that the Emperor did or did not know about the Cult.

Blind? No. I think he foresaw how it would likely end, and I think he even knew how it would be 5 or 10,000 years later...

... but I also think he held out hope, up until the very moment he blasted Horus out of existence, that he could change that fate. Humans are stubborn that way. While we might see something as a foregone conclusion, we still hold out hope that, by some chance or miracle or sudden inspiration or unexpected ballsy move, we'll pull something out of our butts and save the proverbial day.

By then, though, it was too late. Everything he had foreseen was to then come to pass.

Just to but in about the Mechanicus and the Emperor's divinity. I'm sure there's a bit about it in the Knight Codex. I'll have a rummage and see if I can find it again.

Wasn't it explained in the book mechanicum?

First, before I get into this, I acknowledge that the thrust of the OP is about the rise of the state religion in the Imperium, not necessarily the semantics of the different names of government systems.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I would say that the Imperium is a theocracy since a divine being (the God-Emperor) is oficially acknowledged as its ruler and the High Lords rule in his name.

Theocracy is not 'the rule of god' it is 'the rule of the church' . What the Imperium, strictly speaking, is; is an Oligarchy; 'the rule of the few', namely the small council that is the High Lords of Terra. Even having your head of state also be the head of the state religion does not make an nation a theocracy (else the establishment of Anglicanism would have turned England into a Theocracy). There are shades of theocracy, the fact that the Lords of Terra includes the Fabricator General (the AdMech is a Theocracy) and the Eceleisarch (Head of the church, and shrine and cardinal world are almost certainly ruled theocratically). However for the Imperium to be a proper theocracy; the church would need to be completely in charge, and also operating on almost all levels of government; Sector Commanders, Planetary Governors, IG generals, Navy Admirals, all would have to be part of the church hierarchy.

Oligarchy is the better term for what the Imperium is, and better conveys how it functions.

The Imperium is so large and so completely unlike anything in actual history that we probably need a few words, maybe even words people have not yet invented, to accurately classify it.

 Manchu wrote:
The Imperium is so large and so completely unlike anything in actual history that we probably need a few words, maybe even words people have not yet invented, to accurately classify it.

An oligarchic, theocratic, bureaucratic, technocratic, monarchy? With a side of fries?

Seriously though, you are right; the Imperium is complicated. While the High Lords suggest an oligarchic organisation, they are only the uppermost tier, under them the various different organisation have their own power-structures which run a pretty wide gaumut. The Admech are both a Theocracy and a Technocracy, the Administratum epitomizes bureaucracy, Individual Planets can devise their own systems, so long as there is someone called the Planetary Governor who see that the tithes are paid. I'm not even sure what to call the IG, the Inquisition is, well, The Inquisition, and then there are the SM. It is messy.

Let's just say "how did a state religion take hold?" so we don't get too off track.

Well, that question has kinda already been answered.

It hasn't really. There were still powerful organizations within the Imperium that hadn't embraced the Imperial cult. Someone else said space marines were diminished after the heresy. There's some truth to that with the breaking down of the legions, but they were the only reason the Imperium stayed together. So that makes me think much was done at the whim of the astartes.

The rise of the Cult Imperial did far more to unite the people than a million Space Marines spread across the galaxy.

Religion is the opium of the people - Karl Marx. The Imperial Cult is as much what glues the Imperium together as the astronomicon and its military forces.

As for powerful organisations, organisations are comprised of people. And the Imperial Cult developed over generations. Ignorance, apathy, curiosity, and acceptance down through those generations is how it spread.

Well, that's pretty much exactly how GW told it. That's how it went down.

As for Space Marines, these cults were all over the Imperium, which is bloody vast. The Marines couldn't really have done much to stop the cults from spreading. Even then, why would they? The Imperium had just undergone a major civil war, kicking off another one so soon afterwards wouldn't've been a great idea.

The Imperial Cult just took off. It became an unstoppable force and the only way to stop it would have been another cataclysmic civil war that would have been the Imperium's undoing. Hardly worth undertaking because those in the know knew it was actually protecting humanity from the corrupting powers of Chaos anyway.

So, really there are a few questions tied into the broad umbrella of "why did the Imperium adopt the Imperial Cult as its state religion".

I mean, the answer to the literal question is that it grew too powerful to ignore in M32, with 2/3 of the human race as members. The High Lords recognized it as the state religion, then were forced to accept its leader into their ranks.

But you can get that from http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adeptus_Ministorum

The question here is why this occurred? Or rather, why did the Imperial Cult defeat A: All other religions, B: All competing Imperial Cults, C: The Imperial Truth and D: atheism proper?

A: I imagine that it was easy for imperial shamans to depict non imperial shamans as pawns of chaos. Then the ancestor worshippers/sun worshippers/whatever would be purged by the Imperium's extraordinarily malignant massacre apparatus and there you go.

B: One of them had to win, the one that started on Terra and had a hero as its first patriarch was a likely candidate to do so. It doesn't really matter though, whichever Imperial Cult swallowed up all the others you still end up with some version of the Ecclisiarchy.

C: The Imperial Truth suffered a huge blow with the revelation of the Warp, which it had not been designed to explain. Further its general tenor, of a triumphant humanity rising to prominence over a conquered galaxy, doesn't fit the grim darkness of the galaxy after the Chaos Gods played their hands.

D: Atheism has never beaten religion, no reason it would start now. As soon as the state stopped suppressing the people's faith (they had more important things to do, with the Scouring and all) it popped right back up, soviet union style.

Yes, the Ecclesiarchal version of the Imperial Cult beat into submission all other versions and all other religons. It's only suitable that the Imperial religon be the most militant one.

Though they didn't and don't just use militant means to deal with other religions. What's interesting about the Ecclesiarchy is that it's quite good at absorbing other religions into itself. The procedure when encountering another human religion is to steadily absorb it, possibly using things like infiltrated missionaries and gifts such as schools or hospitals to smooth things along. It's probably a direct result of its coming from so many different cults that it's gotten so good at absorbing other faiths into itself.

 Troike wrote:
Though they didn't and don't just use militant means to deal with other religions. What's interesting about the Ecclesiarchy is that it's quite good at absorbing other religions into itself. The procedure when encountering another human religion is to steadily absorb it, possibly using things like infiltrated missionaries and gifts such as schools or hospitals to smooth things along. It's probably a direct result of its coming from so many different cults that it's gotten so good at absorbing other faiths into itself.

"Militant" in both the literal and figurative sense.

I think the key to understanding "religion" in the context of the Unification and the Great Crusade is to realize that "religion" itself is not really the issue but rather ideology. The Emperor rooted out every competing ideology, many of which (but not all) were religious in nature. They were all extinguished and replaced by the Imperial Truth. In honesty, there is not much practical difference between what the Ecclesiarchy teaches and the Imperial Truth except the Imperial Truth fit better with the pre-Heresy idiom and the Cult fits better with the post-Heresy idiom.

Whether the Emperor is a god, or even what it means to be a god, is purely academic in 40k, aside from pre-Heresy relations between the Emperor and his Astartes legions.

 Manchu wrote:
I think the key to understanding "religion" in the context of the Unification and the Great Crusade is to realize that "religion" itself is not really the issue but rather ideology. The Emperor rooted out every competing ideology, many of which (but not all) were religious in nature. They were all extinguished and replaced by the Imperial Truth. In honesty, there is not much practical difference between what the Ecclesiarchy teaches and the Imperial Truth except the Imperial Truth fit better with the pre-Heresy idiom and the Cult fits better with the post-Heresy idiom.

Whether the Emperor is a god, or even what it means to be a god, is purely academic in 40k, aside from pre-Heresy relations between the Emperor and his Astartes legions.

Only if you consider the issue of wether or not their is a God or is not a God a minor one to be swept under the rug.