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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/13 20:25:38
Subject: How Did The Imperium Become A Theocracy?
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Hallowed Canoness
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On the contrary, you need to define 'God' before you can approach the issue of whether or not god exists.
If God means a being of unfathomable power that can alter reality with a wave of its hand, then gods exist in 40k - the Chaos Gods, the C'tan, the Emperor.
If God means an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator being like the abrahamic deity, then no, god doesn't exist in 40k, or if it does, it's so far beyond the recognised Gods that it may as well not.
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"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/13 21:08:22
Subject: How Did The Imperium Become A Theocracy?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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I consider a non-issue in 40k. It has no bearing on the universe. Either the Emperor does or does not have psychic power enough to strive against the Ruinous Powers. If he does, is he a god? This is entirely semantic.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/13 21:08:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/13 21:57:58
Subject: How Did The Imperium Become A Theocracy?
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Furyou Miko wrote:On the contrary, you need to define 'God' before you can approach the issue of whether or not god exists.
If God means a being of unfathomable power that can alter reality with a wave of its hand, then gods exist in 40k - the Chaos Gods, the C'tan, the Emperor.
If God means an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator being like the abrahamic deity, then no, god doesn't exist in 40k, or if it does, it's so far beyond the recognised Gods that it may as well not.
-points out that the bible actually fails to describe Yahweh in a way that would make him omnipotent, and rather most deities from eastern religions that exhibit omnipotence in their associated texts-
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/13 22:08:20
Subject: How Did The Imperium Become A Theocracy?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Wyzilla, that is entirely a matter of which bible translation you read.
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"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 18:39:40
Subject: How Did The Imperium Become A Theocracy?
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Boosting Space Marine Biker
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Goge Vandire. Need I say more?
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Innocentia Nihil Probat.
Son of Dorn |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 22:54:49
Subject: How Did The Imperium Become A Theocracy?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Yes, Vandire was five thousand years after the rise of the Ecclesiarchy and nothing to do with the topic at hand.
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"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 06:15:56
Subject: How Did The Imperium Become A Theocracy?
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Boosting Space Marine Biker
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Furyou Miko wrote:
Yes, Vandire was five thousand years after the rise of the Ecclesiarchy and nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Then I'm mixing things. My bad.
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Innocentia Nihil Probat.
Son of Dorn |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 12:50:27
Subject: How Did The Imperium Become A Theocracy?
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Fixture of Dakka
Temple Prime
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I wouldn't say the Imperium is a theocracy.
The Ecclesiarchy butted heads with the Adeptus Terra, Astartes, and Mechanicus before, and quite definitively lost. The Ecclesiarchy has a massive amount of power and influence, but it is simply one part of the Imperial Machine, as represented by it only having a single seat in the council of the Lords of Terra.
Rather I'd say that the Imperium is a heavily decentralized Oligarchic semi-feudal confederacy. Due to a combination of it's sheer size and FTL travel being as such that even in more favorable depictions of warp travel it takes months or years to cross the Imperium if the currents are favorable, a truly centralized state isn't quite possible. However, because Astropathic communications seem to be either instant or as at least so fast that your orders and memos will almost always be timely, some degree of centralization is possible.
What the Ecclessiarchy provides is not political rulership, as I mentioned before, but it provides a bedrock of Imperial culture. One of the big things that separates an Imperial population from another human population is it's faith and the role it plays in society. In Chaos dominated, Tau ruled, or truly independent Human societies, faith is either channeled towards a different beliefset with radically different dogmas, or is downplayed to some degree. Now to be sure, the Imperium itself runs a pretty diverse gauntlet between secularism and fundamentalism depending on who and where you ask.
The Imperial Creed is ultimately very tolerant and flexible so long as you don't outright worship aliens/follow Alien religions or Chaos or have a doctrinal variation that would disrupt the operations of the wider Imperium (Ecclesiarchal missionaries are noted as doing their best, when Imperialifying a native faith, to curb the more destructive habits of the natives even if they aren't Chaos or Alien born), and like the Imperium itself, the Creed has many variations and doctrinal forms.
But it all has some common tenents and roots that form a large part of the basis of Imperial identity. The Emperor is the figure to be held in the highest of regards, you can have other gods so long as they aren't of the foul Xenos or Dark variety, but he must be first among them. The Imperium is the body you owe allegiance to above all else. You may be Rodinav, Valhallan, or Vostroyan, but firstly you are Human and Imperial.
The heretic threatens the Imperium's core, and must be destroyed. The mutant threatens mankind's purity, and is to be shunned at best if they are not curable or useful/true breeding. The Alien is to never be trusted and must be made to one day submit to mankind or be destroyed by mankind. The machine is to be venerated, and the Adeptus Mechanicus are the keepers of the machines. Service to the Imperium is a great honor, whether it be a desk jockey in the Administratum, policing in the Arbites, preaching in the Ecclesiarchy, or fighting in the Guard. Humanity must not stand divided, and the Imperium is the only acceptable form of unity for mankind. Respect, fear, and honor the elites of the Imperium, the Sororitas, the Astartes, the Inquisition, the Tech-Priests, and so on, they are mankind's best and set an example you should aspire to.
These seem to be the core principles of what Imperial culture entails, with all the details being very much variable.
So while I'd disagree with the premise of the Imperium being a theocracy, it's very clear that religion plays a crucial role in Imperial society and identity. Indeed, due to the Imperium's hegemonic status in the galaxy and dominion over the crushing majority of mankind, all other flavors of humanity at least partially define themselves with how they differ from the Imperium.
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Midnightdeathblade wrote:Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 14:09:59
Subject: Re:How Did The Imperium Become A Theocracy?
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Grovelin' Grot
United States
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http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Cult
Article gives detailed account of the imperial Cult Founding.
Also if we are attempting to fulfill our religious needs with Warhammer 40,000 we have missed the purpose of this game.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/17 14:15:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 19:19:57
Subject: How Did The Imperium Become A Theocracy?
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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If you going to describe the Imperium in one word: it's a bureaucracy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 19:38:52
Subject: How Did The Imperium Become A Theocracy?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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It's "theocratic" in that the authority of all of its various officials, from a High Lord of Terra down to the Administratum clerk running the local post office, descends from the authority vested in the office by the word of the God-Emperor.
The god-form, and more importantly his church, do not solely operate the state (though the line between church and state in the Imperium is a very blurry one), though arguments can be made that this is a semantic difference.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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