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Wounded Lemartes once managed to charge a unit of 6 of my tyranid warriors. There there no survivors :(
(they had 5th ed codex lashwhips, so he didn't make it out either)

Exalted for being awesome!

Murdius Maximus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA have fast vehicles. That's good. There I said something positive. But I'm not saying anything positive about Lemartes, because there's nothing to say.

And to be fair, Daemons are up there with Tau/Eldar.

Classy snark. Nice. Look I'm just saying you don't have to smash everything everyone says. You're some supposed BA veteran why not use that knowledge to help people who, as you would put it, "insist" on playing them? Seems to me most people who play them know how bad they are competitive wise. We don't need you to troll everything about them. So why not offer people advice within their codex like a lot of other people here do instead of putting them down.

Id just like to chip in here and say that whilst Martel often does highlight how poor BA are competitively (which tbf is merely stating facts), he has given me plenty of advice over the past few months and whilst we may not agree on everything in the dex, he has been open minded when things he had not considered were pointed out. And lastly ive witnessed plenty of debates that have got heated, yet Martels responses have always seemed calm and measured. Whilst the comment 'next' was probably not the most diplomatic, everything else he has said in this thread are his opinion (I believe combined with fact), which WAS asked for in the OP. In fact, if this thread was all about how much of a wonder boy lemartes is, it wouldn't be much of a debate at all.

Angrron can get something like 18 S10 AP2 Attacks.

Yeah, Lemartes sucks. Even when he's wounded (when he has 8 S8 attacks at I5/WS5), he dies like any other DC chump. Waste of points IMO.

Lucarikx

Martel732 wrote:
And the DC are also terrible...

Okay this has to be a joke.

I run Drop Pod DC and they rock!

How do your opponents react to drop pod DC? Because their shooting sucks and they can't assault that turn. If players stay calm and react appropriately, DC are easy to neuter. Largely because their shooting is trivial.

Martel732 wrote:
How do your opponents react to drop pod DC? Because their shooting sucks and they can't assault that turn. If players stay calm and react appropriately, DC are easy to neuter. Largely because their shooting is trivial.

BS4 is pretty solid imho. Again it comes down to tactics. Ten man DC out of a pod with bolters is 10 solid shots (20 if you aimed your pod right and the scatter was good.) Hitting on 3's isn't so bad. Add the fact that you can get two extra shots from the storm bolter on the pod and it makes a decent shooting unit. You can't just bash DC mercilessly just because you disagree with thier usefulness. They still fire as well as tactical marines, and the get a nice attack bonus on the charge. Is it omg I'm super amazing with markerlights and bullets that fly around corners because I'm Tau? No. Is it solid? Yes. Even you can't deny that Martel.

You are paying a premium for boltgun goobers that don't score. If models armed with only boltguns and don't score aren't bad, I don't know what is. BS 4 is fine, but the boltgun sucks.

It's ok, but for 50pts more than a Tac squad? Ehhhh... plus you can screw over the Death Company by assaulting them when they land. That makes them sad.

I wasn't talking about scoring. I was talking about shooting. Yes they don't score. Yes they can be assaulted and it takes away a degree of power. They're still Space Marines when assaulted, which makes them pretty solid in CC especially with WS5.
I get that they are expensive but BA has to work with what they've got right now.
On topic (again,) LeMartes can benefit the DC immensely. He is not all powerful as the op suggested but when he is with the DC and on the charge he is a force to be reckoned with, even without any wounds.

Lemartes would make an excellent HQ choice. If he didn't have a jump pack and instead gave the units scouts, he could make a LR unit of DC a very viable threat.

Can I just add that BA have the only space marine unit ( I believe) that can assault the turn it deep strikes, vanguard veterans.

If you are playing against a shooting army and you managed to get the first turn, 3 squads of vanguard deep striking on the 2nd turn and assaulting those horrible shooting squds will screw over an army and basically limit the opposing players best shooting squads to have 1 turn of shooting and if there is night fight on that first turn then that players best shooting squads will probably end up doing nothing the whole game.. (BA vanguard in jet packs get to re-roll their reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6).

champagne_socialist wrote:
Can I just add that BA have the only space marine unit ( I believe) that can assault the turn it deep strikes, vanguard veterans.

If you are playing against a shooting army and you managed to get the first turn, 3 squads of vanguard deep striking on the 2nd turn and assaulting those horrible shooting squds will screw over an army and basically limit the opposing players best shooting squads to have 1 turn of shooting and if there is night fight on that first turn then that players best shooting squads will probably end up doing nothing the whole game.. (BA vanguard in jet packs get to re-roll their reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6).

Vanguard are kind of expensive though, especially if you want them to cause significant damage. Plus they waste slots that can be spent on Baal Predators...

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
Can I just add that BA have the only space marine unit ( I believe) that can assault the turn it deep strikes, vanguard veterans.

If you are playing against a shooting army and you managed to get the first turn, 3 squads of vanguard deep striking on the 2nd turn and assaulting those horrible shooting squds will screw over an army and basically limit the opposing players best shooting squads to have 1 turn of shooting and if there is night fight on that first turn then that players best shooting squads will probably end up doing nothing the whole game.. (BA vanguard in jet packs get to re-roll their reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6).

Vanguard are kind of expensive though, especially if you want them to cause significant damage. Plus they waste slots that can be spent on Baal Predators...

I m just highlighting an option that BA have other other SM. If you are playing any shooty army then Vanguard are the better option. Deep striking 1d6 and then being able to assault the turn you deep strike is an incredibly powerful move. You can totally destroy an opponents gun line using that tactic.

A big debate is that death company will get shot at by gunlines and thus not make it across the board to get into combat, so to counter that tactic take 3 squads of vanguard who will deep strike in turn 2 and lock up shooting units in combat and wipe them out.

I run a lot od death company with jet packs and what I do if I get first turn is advance my death company behind terrain that blocks line of sight even if it means moving under 12', my opponent has his first turn, most of my stuff is hiding out of LOS so he can't shoot much with his massive gun line and then in turn 2 I deep strike 3 squads of vanguard who each assault 3 different shooting squads which allows my death company to move out of cover and advance.

Codex inquisition made this tactic work even better as I can get a cheap inquisitor for 25 points with 3 servo skulls for 3 points which means that my vanguard scatter 0d6 because they are blood angels they scatter 1d6 less and the servo skulls make them scatter 1d6 less so they don't scatter (providing they are within 12' of the servo skull) and so I can assault the target unit very easily.

This is just 1 blood angels tactic to deal with gunlines.

BA Vanguard vets are awesome.

 Jancoran wrote:
BA Vanguard vets are awesome.

yep they are my favourite BA unit

Can you use corbulos reroll to reroll either the scatter die or the d6 roll or does it count as rolling 2d6 so not allowing it? If you can it could make a vet unit incredibly accurate for the charge...

Poly Ranger wrote:
Can you use corbulos reroll to reroll either the scatter die or the d6 roll or does it count as rolling 2d6 so not allowing it? If you can it could make a vet unit incredibly accurate for the charge...

corbulo lets you have a single re-roll so yes you could reroll the scatter.

to make it more accurate you just need an inquisitor with 3 servo skulles (under 30 points total) so any vanguard deep striking within 12 inches of a servo skull will not scatter at all.

Martel732 wrote:
How do your opponents react to drop pod DC? Because their shooting sucks and they can't assault that turn. If players stay calm and react appropriately, DC are easy to neuter. Largely because their shooting is trivial.

My opponents shoot them take them to 6 or 7 models left in the unit, then the DC wreck face and kill a scoring unit near an objective. the opponents shoot them some more and take them to 3 or so models, then the 3 DC wreck face again on another unit that is close by.

the trick is to get the drop pod blocking line of sight to most of the opponents shooting. works really well and even 2 or 3 DC wreck entire units of opposition.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
It's ok, but for 50pts more than a Tac squad? Ehhhh... plus you can screw over the Death Company by assaulting them when they land. That makes them sad.

They still wreck face. 6 DC have 18 attacks when assaulted and 30 attacks when they assault. (Bolt Pistol/CCW for drop pod DC).

 DeathReaper wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How do your opponents react to drop pod DC? Because their shooting sucks and they can't assault that turn. If players stay calm and react appropriately, DC are easy to neuter. Largely because their shooting is trivial.

My opponents shoot them take them to 6 or 7 models left in the unit, then the DC wreck face and kill a scoring unit near an objective. the opponents shoot them some more and take them to 3 or so models, then the 3 DC wreck face again on another unit that is close by.

the trick is to get the drop pod blocking line of sight to most of the opponents shooting. works really well and even 2 or 3 DC wreck entire units of opposition.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
It's ok, but for 50pts more than a Tac squad? Ehhhh... plus you can screw over the Death Company by assaulting them when they land. That makes them sad.

They still wreck face. 6 DC have 18 attacks when assaulted and 30 attacks when they assault. (Bolt Pistol/CCW for drop pod DC).

Yea DC are awesome and when the new codex comes out no doubt they will be made even cheaper, I am guessing their wargear such as jump packs and transports for them will be made cheaper.

champagne_socialist wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Can you use corbulos reroll to reroll either the scatter die or the d6 roll or does it count as rolling 2d6 so not allowing it? If you can it could make a vet unit incredibly accurate for the charge...

corbulo lets you have a single re-roll so yes you could reroll the scatter.

to make it more accurate you just need an inquisitor with 3 servo skulles (under 30 points total) so any vanguard deep striking within 12 inches of a servo skull will not scatter at all.

Yeh I made a list with 12 servo skulls (4 inquisitors) and lots of VV veterans with this idea in mind a month ago...

 DeathReaper wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How do your opponents react to drop pod DC? Because their shooting sucks and they can't assault that turn. If players stay calm and react appropriately, DC are easy to neuter. Largely because their shooting is trivial.

My opponents shoot them take them to 6 or 7 models left in the unit, then the DC wreck face and kill a scoring unit near an objective. the opponents shoot them some more and take them to 3 or so models, then the 3 DC wreck face again on another unit that is close by.

the trick is to get the drop pod blocking line of sight to most of the opponents shooting. works really well and even 2 or 3 DC wreck entire units of opposition.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
It's ok, but for 50pts more than a Tac squad? Ehhhh... plus you can screw over the Death Company by assaulting them when they land. That makes them sad.

They still wreck face. 6 DC have 18 attacks when assaulted and 30 attacks when they assault. (Bolt Pistol/CCW for drop pod DC).

We'll have to agree to disagree about DC. They are a garbage time unit and end up hurting your list. They are overpriced assault in an edition where underpriced assault units are having a lot of trouble.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
BA Vanguard vets are awesome.

They're terrible, because of what they do to your model count.

"the trick is to get the drop pod blocking line of sight to most of the opponents shooting."

You know, your opponent gets a movement phase as well. And counting on a drop to land precisely is not exactly a great plan in my experience. Often, using the pod as cover will put your foot sloggers two turns out of charge range. That's a turn 3 assault. Too late.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
Can I just add that BA have the only space marine unit ( I believe) that can assault the turn it deep strikes, vanguard veterans.

If you are playing against a shooting army and you managed to get the first turn, 3 squads of vanguard deep striking on the 2nd turn and assaulting those horrible shooting squds will screw over an army and basically limit the opposing players best shooting squads to have 1 turn of shooting and if there is night fight on that first turn then that players best shooting squads will probably end up doing nothing the whole game.. (BA vanguard in jet packs get to re-roll their reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6).

Vanguard are kind of expensive though, especially if you want them to cause significant damage. Plus they waste slots that can be spent on Baal Predators...

I m just highlighting an option that BA have other other SM. If you are playing any shooty army then Vanguard are the better option. Deep striking 1d6 and then being able to assault the turn you deep strike is an incredibly powerful move. You can totally destroy an opponents gun line using that tactic.

A big debate is that death company will get shot at by gunlines and thus not make it across the board to get into combat, so to counter that tactic take 3 squads of vanguard who will deep strike in turn 2 and lock up shooting units in combat and wipe them out.

I run a lot od death company with jet packs and what I do if I get first turn is advance my death company behind terrain that blocks line of sight even if it means moving under 12', my opponent has his first turn, most of my stuff is hiding out of LOS so he can't shoot much with his massive gun line and then in turn 2 I deep strike 3 squads of vanguard who each assault 3 different shooting squads which allows my death company to move out of cover and advance.

Codex inquisition made this tactic work even better as I can get a cheap inquisitor for 25 points with 3 servo skulls for 3 points which means that my vanguard scatter 0d6 because they are blood angels they scatter 1d6 less and the servo skulls make them scatter 1d6 less so they don't scatter (providing they are within 12' of the servo skull) and so I can assault the target unit very easily.

This is just 1 blood angels tactic to deal with gunlines.

Against good gun lines, you'll run out of bodies far before they will. You're making assumptions about terrain and assumptions about deep strike. Most good gun lines have WAY MORE than 3 shooting squads. Your DC will still die. Also, if this is your list and you draw Space Wolves, you just lost the game right then and there. This is not recommended at all. Vanguards are a dumpster fire because of their cost. No amount of scheming will change this. There's also the issue of bubble wrapping and interceptor ion accelerators.

Model count is a problem in most BA armies. I'm not sure what can be done about that.

Given that Vanguard are awesome...and they are... you just better have a plan for how to use them. but they are deadly weapons.

There are just terribad matchups for Blood Angels because their best trick is also very involved and expensive to pull off.

Now in a new codex, i can imagine several upgrades coming that would make their flights deadlier. Blind Grenades for one ala Warp Talons. Psyker powers to reliably nerf enemy responded to assault, such as init nerfs and of course, slight repricing of Sanguinary Guard.

and LeMartes, the whole REASON for this thread, has GOT to be repriced. 50 points is about as much as I'd pay. Yeah at 50 points he's WAY good, but who cares? Other armies have WAY awesome stuff they can use too. LeMartes would not break anything at 50 points. He's only in the list once.

Death Company as not scoring? Meh. Maybe give the enemy 1 free Kill Point for each unit of them fielded, but make them scoring.

"Model count is a problem in most BA armies. I'm not sure what can be done about that."

Start by not using Vanguards or DC.

Martel732 wrote:
"Model count is a problem in most BA armies. I'm not sure what can be done about that."

Start by not using Vanguards or DC.

And use what instead?

Blood Angels have no high model count units afaik.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Model count is a problem in most BA armies. I'm not sure what can be done about that."

Start by not using Vanguards or DC.

And use what instead?

Blood Angels have no high model count units afaik.

Cheaper models that catch bullets just as well to make it harder on your opponent. Like ASM and scouts. I've haven't lost to another BA list that was using Vanguards or DC. Ever. They're that crippling.

Im not telling anyone they are the answer to all BA problems. But I AM saying that BA with them can be quite deadly. So much depends on matchups for BA. SO MUCH.

This is so ironic to me since they were THE army for quite some time. Suddenly, I saw 100 BA players and not an Ultramarine anywhere. But apparently Blood Angels aren't above "borrowing" UltraMarine armor plating. Lol.

BA were never THE army. They had some gimmick lists that were good in 5th. That's all. Space Wolves owned them. IG owned them. GK owned them. Necrons owned them. Orks were brutal.

As I've said, I've never lost to BA with even a single Vanguard squad. I don't see how to make such a waste of points deadly.

Martel732, I swim in a very deep pool, from Olympia to Portland. within that 120 mile stretch are a truck load of good Generals less than 2 hours apart. Throw Seattle/Renton/Bellevue into the mix and good lawd. And based on that considerable pools depth, while Grey Knights did indeed do well when they came out, no one was rolling Blood Angels regularly until 6E. The TAIL end of 6E the GK's were giving them a run for their money but then, that detracts nothing from what the Blood Angels were able to accomplish before that and there are endless tourney findings to support that.

Even with Grey Knights, as brutal as they could be at first (clearly written for 6E and a little before their time is all) the Blood Angels held their own once they learned to attack on one flank and not try to bull rush the middle.

Maybe your pool was different. Maybe. But the tourney results were all I needed to see. Unlike other codex's that rise suddenly and dont maintain, this one did, right up to 6E.

I know players who got outta 40K because they could only win with one army: Blood Angels. Their win button gone, they got out for good.

It's sad, but true. Matt Ward was hated andmaybe is hated for this 90 degree turn on the power curve. It kicked things off. Looked like they were correcting a little and then... things got crazy after the Farsight Enclave book. OOFTA!