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I think your best bet is a cheap flying DP. Give it 2 greater rewards and hope for the "armorbane and fleshbane" in CC. 6 attacks at S7 +2D6 is bound to get a good chunk of penetrating hits. You are still looking at +200pt to Maybe take one out, and the sD explosion will take you out in the process.

Greater brass scorpion isn't a good call in my book, its attacks are only S10 (don't understand why they are not D, giant triple chain claws of doom are S10, but a single big chainsword is sD) and I am pretty sure it will strike after the knight.

Yes the Greater Brass Scorpion has the lovely generic stats of Daemon engines and like the Decimator it's a lovely model, but again like the Decimator, it's not worth its' points. Let's not talk more about the Greater Brass Scorpion and the Lord of Skulls as these minor titans of the close combat-loving Blood God can only just match the close combat effectiveness of the Imperial Knight, even though they're twice as expensive... I'll stop now...

Funny thing by the way - Wraithknights is a bit taller than the Imperial Knight but as they're Jump Monstrous creatures, the Imperial Knight can use the stomp attacks against it... Maybe the Imperial Knight can jump high into the air and land on the Wraithknight?

Chaospling wrote:
Yes the Greater Brass Scorpion has the lovely generic stats of Daemon engines and like the Decimator it's a lovely model, but again like the Decimator, it's not worth its' points. Let's not talk more about the Greater Brass Scorpion and the Lord of Skulls as these minor titans of the close combat-loving Blood God can only just match the close combat effectiveness of the Imperial Knight, even though they're twice as expensive... I'll stop now...

Funny thing by the way - Wraithknights is a bit taller than the Imperial Knight but as they're Jump Monstrous creatures, the Imperial Knight can use the stomp attacks against it... Maybe the Imperial Knight can jump high into the air and land on the Wraithknight?

Clearly the pilots of the Imperial Knight Orders have been watching a bit too much pacific rim, why I hear they can't help but hum the tune every time they see a large daemon or tyranid monstrous creature in front of them.

The main issue here is in the title - "mostly khorne".

Imperial knights are set to make a splash in the competitive scene. Whilst not overpowered per say, they are certainly competitive.
Khorne daemons on the other hand are not competitive in the slightest (khornedogs aside).

To me it seems that you are trying to run a fluffy list against a more competitive one.

Daemons' safest method would be with tzeenth ranged firepower tbh. Get Fatey, a LoC, or tzeentch DP flying at the sides or rear of it, and hope for some good dice rolls.
An alternative would be to use a lash prince and hope to get iron arm, however without it you won't be much of a threat to the knight.

Of course there are methods which involve putting your units on the line. Using greater daemons or Be'lakor, charging the knight will has a decent chance to take a knight out before it attacks, however the resulting str D explosion is a worry. (try to engage the knight from the side, this way if a "Hit" is rolled on the scatter die, then the Str D will not reach you (the Knight base is so big that the large blast does not cover all of it side to side.))
Alternatively You might try and use plaguebearers or plague drones. Plaguebearers would probably be better, but getting them there would be an issue.

Yes I would like to think that my list is more fluffy than competitive. A Black Templars army with an Imperial Knight... I don't know how fluffy that is, but it's definitely competitive.

A nerfed stomp attack which didn't affect monstrous creatures and vehicles would do wonders for the Imperial Knight.

It's stomp attack I'm more worried about than the explosion or Strength D close combat weapon.

Why? Stomp attack is only really good at taking out hordes. Your MCs will laugh it off 5/6ths of the time anyway.

For the models you want to use to take it down with, stomp is not something to fear.

It's those Str D attacks that are more likely to lay your MCs low.

For several reasons - it's not correct that my MCs will laugh them off, the Stomp attacks are the Imperial Knight's best weapon against them. Remember that he can hit the MCs three times and only one has to be a 6, that's 42% chance and that's pretty good.
The other reason is like I told before, the Stomp attack rule clearly weren't meant for such a small model like the Imperial Knight:

Would you say it should be able to stomp the Wraithknight?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/blog/2100/579689.page

Would you say that Imperial Knight should be able to make as powerful stomp attacks as the Reaver Battle Titan?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/590748-Size%20comparison.html
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/588114-40k%2520Imperial%2520Knight%2520Titan%2520Size.html

I know that we shouldn't take the model sizes too seriously, but I still think it's safe to say that the Imperial Knight shouldn't be able to stomp Monstrous creatures and walkers, maybe vehicles in general.

I think that the Bloodthirster is one of the best chances to take it out but I can't get over the fact that the Stomp attack works on Monstrous creatures - maybe when it comes from bigger titans but not from the Imperial Knight (don't get me started about how easy the Imperial Knight can kill a Lord of Skulls). I think it's even possible to hit the Bloodthirster all three times with the Stomp so just with the Stomp attacks alone the Imperial Knight have roughly 42% to take out a Bloodthirster.

Stomp attacks are not a big deal. They happen at I1 and only the 6 matters.

I play a FMC Daemon list, and have played two games this week involving 4 Knights (one where a friend used FMC against 4 Knights, one where I did). Both times, the Knights lost.

Daemon MC are going to be able to hit the Knights first if they aren't in cover. It is hard for Knights to be fully in cover, due to an enormous base size. Additionally, playing Knights RAW means that they only move 3d6 pick the highest through cover, so that slows them down immensely. Finally, their shooting doesn't really scare Daemons (at least in comparison to armies like Eldar/Tau).

If you charge two MCs into a Knight, you will kill it. If you take off 2-3 hull points with vector strikes beforehand, you will likely need only one. If you choose to smash, that is 4 attacks per MC on the charge--hitting on 3's at strength 10 with re-roll to penetrate armor. They will go down--especially if your opponent has only one. Even if by some miracle it does get to swing, Knights have three attacks and need a 5 to hit.

They are good, make no mistake--but they are far from OP.

The part of the problem with stomping a waithknight is that you have to have some imagination. Stomp attacks do not literally need to be stepping on something, the definition of stomp after all references trampling. The knight massively outweighs anything not a SH or GMC. It can very easily just walk through anything in it's way and whatever was there is going to end up on the ground getting stepped on. Much like a cat bulldozer is not taller than me but if it drives through me I get stomped.

You are talking about stomps like they will always roll 3 on the d3. They are just as likely to roll 1's as 6's (more likely with GW dice in fact).

JGrand is absolutely correct. The stomp shouldn't matter as you have a significant mobility edge against the knights and better screening units. You should be able to hit each knight with two MC in which case the attacks and stomps are not important.

Ah sorry, I thought it always were 3 Stomp attacks, then it's 29,8%.

So besides the Imperial Knight having a 29,8 % chance of killing a Bloodthirster with its' Stomp attacks, it has roughly 15,8 % chance of of killing it with 3 Strength D close combat attacks. Remember that I haven't counted the S6 hits from the Stomp attacks into this.

Given a 3 or 4 are rolled when determining the extra hull points lost when Explosion is rolled then a Bloodthirster (with 4 smash attacks) has roughly 30 % chance of destroying an Imperial Knight before it can hit back.

I just don't like these odds, and especially not when determining point efficiency and counting the chance of being hit by the explosion of the Knight.

But other than that, there's of course the possibilities of getting to the Knight with Flying Monstrous creatures before it hit my more vulnerable units.

Here is the thing. The knight has a 0% chance of hurting a Chaos MC with a stomp or attack if you kill it first. If you charge it in a side arch then it has a very low chance to death throe killing you and even being hit by the D explosion leaves a alive the majority of the time (average 3 wounds).

Again you have a vast mobility advantage, better screening troops, and are for all intents and purposes immune to the knight while flying. You should be able to double team the knight and your naked bloodthirster is 125 pts cheaper than the knight (and doesn't really need upgrades, if you did give him 2 greater rewards then you have a fair shot at having armour bane and can easily solo a knight).

Ah sorry, I thought it always were 3 Stomp attacks, then it's 29,8%.

So besides the Imperial Knight having a 29,8 % chance of killing a Bloodthirster with its' Stomp attacks, it has roughly 15,8 % chance of of killing it with 3 Strength D close combat attacks. Remember that I haven't counted the S6 hits from the Stomp attacks into this.

Given a 3 or 4 are rolled when determining the extra hull points lost when Explosion is rolled then a Bloodthirster (with 4 smash attacks) has roughly 30 % chance of destroying an Imperial Knight before it can hit back.

I just don't like these odds, and especially not when determining point efficiency and counting the chance of being hit by the explosion of the Knight.

But other than that, there's of course the possibilities of getting to the Knight with Flying Monstrous creatures before it hit my more vulnerable units.

You have a bunch of issues with your math. These odds are not correct at all.

The Knight rolls a D3 for its stomp attacks. It rolls a D6 to determine strength. 17% of the time, it removes you from play. 17% of the time, the stomp attacks do nothing. 66% of the time, the stomps will do 1-3 strength 6 AP 4 attacks--which does not even average one wound. This happens at I1.

A charging Thirster that chooses to smash will have 5 attacks (6 base, 7 for 2 ccw halved to 4+1 for the charge). The Thirster should hit 3 times. With re-rolls via smash, three penetrating hits are likely to go through. Of the three, one should be an explosion result and do an additional D3 hull points.

Long story short, a charging Thirster should come close to killing a Knight on average. If you can plink off 2-4 Hull Points, you can feel very confident about your chances. While the explosion CAN hurt the Thirster, there are also a number of hurdles that have to be jumped for that to happen. Finally, you can lose your Thirster if it means taking down something of greater or equal strategic value in the game. Don't be so loss averse.

I'm using binomial probability distribution. Not counting in the Stomp attacks S6 attacks, there's a 42% chance of killing the Bloodthirster when 3 attacks are rolled, 30,5% when 2 attacks are rolled and 16,67% when 1 attack is rolled - that averages to 29,8%.

When calculating the Bloodthisters' chance I only gave it 4 Smash attacks as if it didn't have 2 close combat weapons.

I agree of course that a more expensive unit should, everything else equal, have a better chance but it have so much more that I'm not hesitating to call it VERY point efficient, if not OP.

But enough about that. Chaos Daemons also got some help through the Mayhem pack, I'm looking forward to try them out against the Imperial Knight.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The main issue here is in the title - "mostly khorne".



Daemons' safest method would be with tzeenth ranged firepower tbh. Get Fatey, a LoC, or tzeentch DP flying at the sides or rear of it, and hope for some good dice rolls.
An alternative would be to use a lash prince and hope to get iron arm, however without it you won't be much of a threat to the knight.

Of course there are methods which involve putting your units on the line. Using greater daemons or Be'lakor, charging the knight will [b]has a decent chance [/b]to take a knight out before it attacks, however the resulting str D explosion is a worry. (try to engage the knight from the side, this way if a "Hit" is rolled on the scatter die, then the Str D will not reach you (the Knight base is so big that the large blast does not cover all of it side to side.))
Alternatively You might try and use plaguebearers or plague drones. Plaguebearers would probably be better, but getting them there would be an issue.

This is my issue with all these is the odds are not great. you melta a LR in range on average you pen. All of these you get lucky you are great, but you need some luck.

JGrand is right in what is probably the best way, but getting those 2 HPs off in the first place can be kinda hard. There is a lot of factors, but when it is all put together a lot of them don't have even get to 50-50 odds.

You are playing a dice game, everything involves luck. The ways I suggested are the safest methods as I said.
Sure, charging an MC into it would be more effective. It's also a better way to get yourself killed if the dice don't go your way. Even if they do there is the chance of a str D pie plate for your reward.
I'm not saying don't do it, but if you are stating the "best way", then you have to take risk assessment into consideration.

JGrand is right in what is probably the best way

I disagree with a bloodthirster. A LoC is a much better pick in almost every situation. They both hit on 3's, they are both str 10, however the LoC can re-roll misses due to psychic powers. Also the LoC has a ton more of utility through ranged firepower and divination skills.
The Bloodthirsters' only advantage is that the knight will hit it on 5's and not 6's.
In a tac list there is no place or a bloodthirster.

About taking out knights with khorne, how about allying obliterators, deepstrike them close by, but not where the shield is, and melta burn his cirquits. Follow up with a monstrous assault if needed.

Yes, my Khorne Daemons will be allying with a small force of Iron Warriors including 2 Obliterators. So far my plan is to have them on the board from turn 1 and instead Deep Strike a Mayhem pack with Multi-meltas, which hopefully will be taking advantage of the Dimensional Key.