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gravitywell wrote:
No, the majority of people wouldn't embrace the grimdark themes of 40k.

That's not to say that a good character driven movie or series could work. Animated would probably be better and could showcase the characters and models.

I probably wouldn't use Space Marines as the main characters though... Unless for the romance side of things you want to make them gay... or possibly have a love interest that existed for a marine before they were turned into a Space Marine.

Romance? Space Marines? Silly you.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

Romance? Space Marines? Silly you.

Exactly. It would be silly. Which is why you wouldn't make a character driven series about Space Marines.

I think you folks are more insistent about romantic subplots in a 40k adaptation than anyone in Hollywood actually would be

Why would it even need a romantic subplot? I do not see the point of it.

Too dark to work out unless you can edit the plot to embrace the dark setting on film, even when you win in 40k the cost is massive. And so big your one victory is buta blip in the universe.

+ star wars was backed by a cult film of massive fame, and huge exposure globally. It could have been a flop, but the fates decided to be generous

That's hard to replicate.

In short, no. I agree with pretty much everything that's been said in this thread; 40k is too grimdark and niche (nerdy) to have mainstream appeal in the same way as Star Wars.

The best way for 40k to gain popularity is probably not through movies. I remember shortly after Space Marine came out there was something of a buzz about it and people that hadn't ever heard of 40k before expressed interest in the universe. So maybe video games are best.

A television series of either Gaunts Ghosts or Eisenhorn might help, but if it's anything like the Ultramarine "movie" maybe not. I say Gaunts Ghosts or Eisenhorn because those are the only 40k novels I've read with any character development. Although, a television series doesn't need good characters or acting in order to be popular, the Walking Dead comes to mind. 40k has ample violence/gore appeal, and that's probably enough to make people wanna watch it.

Video games you have a great mine, you can get away withthe darkness in that media far better.

Ideas like a 40k civ game, controlling regions, choosing oath, making aliences or not, you decide how.

Or fps games, the over the top sci fi luncicy like rocket firing guns that blow up entire bodies is fine there.

 Talizvar wrote:

Ender's Game shows you can have big epic events with a focus on a small group.

Ender's Game was also a mediocre and flimsy adaption that lacked the soul and wit of the iriginal, watering it down horribly. It wasn't an awful movie, but as an adaption it was really disappointing.

Predicting what will and will not be a hit is a very difficult if not nearly impossible task and asking this kind of question is ultimately rather futile due to the number of variables involved and the lack of co-

*Sees people talking in absolutes as if they knew humanity inside out*

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I mean look at a Hollywood execs mind if this was proposed to them...

And that's exactly why Star Wars succeeded. Lucas did the exact opposite of what Hollywood execs (who at the time though there was no point in a "big" science fiction movie) wanted. Of course, he had to go indie to do that. He was forced to seek alternate sources for funding (inventing merchandising in the process), to break a couple conventions and moviemaking practises that were "word of God" in the film industry of the 1970s and to take more than a few personal risks.

Problem is, Star Wars has become the paradigm since then. The Campbellian hero's journey, the awkward love interest, bombastic orchestral soundtrack, ridiculously high stakes, catharthic happy ending... I've seen these themes repeated so many times over the past 30+ years in vain attempts to emulate the Star Wars phenomenon I'm frankly tired of them. And filmmakers are, too. But at the same time, Star Wars set the bar so high it's now financially impossible to create another "big sci-fi indie", so whenever they want to make a science fiction movie that breaks apart from the genre clichès established by Star Wars, they either go hard (the legacy of 2001: A Space Odyssey - Moon, Europa Report...) or go "Her" (to mention a recent science fiction film where the consequences of a huge world-changing event are dealt with in a close, intimate manner). The closest we've been to a paradigm-defying movie was The Matrix, where the writers took the Campbellian Hero for a spin, only to play switch with the viewers' expectations in the final act, and deliver an anticlimatic (yet extremely intelligent) ending to the series. But in the end, fan backlash and critical panning only served to reinforce the execs' adamant views on what a big-budget science fiction flick must have.

Something, somehow, will eventually dethrone Star Wars, but for now it's too well entrenched. The only ways to challenge its monopoly on cinematic sci-fi storytelling (The influence of SW goes beyond the movies and even the scifi/fantasy genres, but that's another story) are TV, animation and the ocasional pet project of a Hollywood holy cow that may slip past the studio suits. Either way the odds for a cinematic version of 40k, much less one that reaches Star Wars levels of cultural impact, are frankly quite slim.

jhe90 wrote:
Video games you have a great mine, you can get away withthe darkness in that media far better.

Ideas like a 40k civ game, controlling regions, choosing oath, making aliences or not, you decide how.

Or fps games, the over the top sci fi luncicy like rocket firing guns that blow up entire bodies is fine there.

40K: Total War. Why this hasnt happened yet is beyond me.

gravitywell wrote:
No, the majority of people wouldn't embrace the grimdark themes of 40k.

That's not to say that a good character driven movie or series could work. Animated would probably be better and could showcase the characters and models.

I probably wouldn't use Space Marines as the main characters though... Unless for the romance side of things you want to make them gay... or possibly have a love interest that existed for a marine before they were turned into a Space Marine.

No need to make Space Marines gay. We have the Dark Angels already:

Dark Angel, with thine aching lust
To rid the world of penitence:
Malicious Angel, who still dost
My soul such subtile violence!

Because of thee, no thought, no thing,
Abides for me undesecrate:
Dark Angel, ever on the wing,
Who never reachest me too late!

Thank Lionel Johnson for 40k's official gay marines
Now you also know why they wear those robes

I don't see why not. Never understood why Star Wars was such a big deal to be honest. Then again I watched the Star Trek movies as a kid. The only thing that interests me from Star Wars is pod racing...I can take or leave the rest.

 monders wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

...a fairly simple but well-written and acted plot,

Have you seen Star Wars?!

I have. I've also seen The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith and for some unknown reason The Phantom Menace.

But I digress. The proper order to watch the movies is 4 5 2 3 6. It makes it much much better.

jasper76 wrote:40K: Total War. Why this hasnt happened yet is beyond me.

The Creative Assembly is making a WHFB game. The Total War engine would not be suitable for 40k.

dementedwombat wrote:I don't see why not. Never understood why Star Wars was such a big deal to be honest. Then again I watched the Star Trek movies as a kid. The only thing that interests me from Star Wars is pod racing...I can take or leave the rest.

Probably because Star Wars was the first of its kind.
40k has the potential to become as big as Star Wars. But someone would need to pick it up and do something with it that has never been seen before, like the Lord of the Rings or Star Wars did.

I severely doubt any Hollywood adapation would remain loyal enough to depict Space Marines with enclosed helmets.

Breng77 wrote:Simply put, NO. Most successful movies and shows are based around characters.

Most recent big-budget movies don't have characters, they have archetypes.

Brother SRM wrote:I think you folks are more insistent about romantic subplots in a 40k adaptation than anyone in Hollywood actually would be

Not even close. Most Hollywood blockbusters are more celebrity vehicle/special effects demo than actual movie. Hollywood execs would probably panic like crazy if the material prevented them from doing the exact same thing they did in another 200 movies.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Why would it even need a romantic subplot? I do not see the point of it.

It wouldn't at all, however... see below

gravitywell wrote:
Exactly. It would be silly. Which is why you wouldn't make a character driven series about Space Marines.

Except that you could, romantic elements aren't anywhere near a staple in character-driven stories. However, its a very commercial element, so Hollywood execs wouldn't dare leave it out. That might lead towards taking risks, and maybe even vision or ambition!

P.S/disclaimer.: This post comes from a horror fan. Beyond horror, most people probably couldn't name another genre where many (recent) independant or straight-out direct-to-video release are & have been favorably compared to (recent) big-budget wide theatrical releases and/or where said big budget wide theatrical releases are considered by several to be the genre's low point. Generally speaking people probably couldn't name another genre with many (recent) direct-to-video titles regarded as genuinely good movies (Genres without or borderline without wide theatrical releases don't count). Therefore, as a horror fan my dislike of Hollywood is probably a bit harsher than most users from a non-horror related forum.

In a perfect set of circumstances it could be, but in reality, I don't think it will be.

It would need first a blockbuster movie that introduced a group of characters that defined the setting. I'm thinking something like an Inquisitoral warband that has psykers, IG Stormtroopers, a couple Space Marines of different Chapters (maybe some Deathwatch Marines, that delve a bit into their Chapters-of-origin), and some Xeno and Chaotic antagonists, introducing the concept of Chaos (though not getting into the fine details of the various gods and all that... not yet, anyway), and also the various kinds of aliens (some Orks, some Eldar, some Tau, and some Tyranids, though the Eldar and Tau could be background characters for the first outing). You introduce some of the basic stuff... Hive cities, Agri Worlds, the gothic-baroque spaceships, etc, but you don't try to go 'round the Imperium in forty days. Just some hints at the variety of settings in the Imperium (SW4 had only 5 areas, after all... the wastes of Tattooine, Mos Eisley, the Falcon, the Death Star, Yavin IV, and then the space battle).

CGI for all the psychic stuff would need to be top-notch, set design to highlight the scifi-gothic feel would need to be spot-on, and the dialog needs to pop. The plotting needs to be tight, too. Acting has to be top-notch, but I would use big-name actors only in supporting parts, as walk-on roles, and the like, as Lucas did with Cushing and Guinness in ANH. The core group needs to be relative unknowns.

So you have the Inquisitor, who should be female and ass-kicking, with various romantic interests between two or three other characters (maybe one of which is presented as an "old flame", like a wealthy Rogue Trader, that has some conflict with one of the new ones).

The intent of the movie is to tell a self-contained story that introduces the setting and establishes the characters, and also hints at a much larger galaxy beyond what's on the screen. It makes mention of things like "the Heresy" and "the Second War of Armageddon" and the like, without going into any details (as Lucas did with mentioning the Clone Wars in A New Hope). This lets the audience fill in the blanks with their own imagination.

*Then*, after it releases, you have the marketing and merchandizing blitz. You put the 40K name on *everything*, whether that's toys, video games, Happy Meal tie-ins, Dixie cups or toilet paper. You have to follow the Lucas model and make the name ubiquitous in society. You spin off a bunch of side-story comics, books, TV shows, and all of that, telling stories from different parts of the galaxy.

I just have visions now of the advertising campaign: "delicious chocolate frosted Warhammers! A kit of Space Marines in every box"

You would buy your own, 40K-licensed Flamer. Don't lie.

The grimdark atmosphere of 40K in no way prevents the IP from blowing up.

40K isn't even that grimdark. It's only grimdark on a macro level. Most of the personal stories within 40K are hardly grimdark.

I would love a down to earth series like Band of Brothers with the Imperial Guard instead. When I say down to earth I mean no Space Marines, not mentioning the Emperor that much, focussing on the harsh everyday life of imperial guardsmen, spice it up a little with their tanks seen up close and realistic, some Ogryns and maybe Orks.
What's important is for the viewer to get "close" to all this, let us savour all impressions so we'll get a good feeling of the 40k universe from ground - the series/movie mustn't be hasty!

 Psienesis wrote:

It would need first a blockbuster movie that introduced a group of characters that defined the setting. I'm thinking something like an Inquisitoral warband that has psykers, IG Stormtroopers, a couple Space Marines of different Chapters

See, hoping for characters who themselves have defined, non-cliched personalties is probably already the limit of expections of an adapation in todays world

 Psienesis wrote:

and some Tyranids,

I'm already questioning how Tyranids could be given any minor role without derailing the lore.

 Psienesis wrote:

You introduce some of the basic stuff... Hive cities, Agri Worlds, the gothic-baroque spaceships, etc, but you don't try to go 'round the Imperium in forty days. Just some hints at the variety of settings in the Imperium (SW4 had only 5 areas, after all... the wastes of Tattooine, Mos Eisley, the Falcon, the Death Star, Yavin IV, and then the space battle).

OTOH, "Star Wars did it" is a mentality for something that won't come close to it. How many creature features emulated Jaws; how many were similar quality-wise? Is Eragon exalted as being of comparable quality to SW? Or is Eragon often reviled for similarities?

 Psienesis wrote:
.
CGI for all the psychic stuff would need to be top-notch

Better yet, no CGI. Pretty much anything else.

 Psienesis wrote:

and the dialog needs to pop. The plotting needs to be tight, too.

However, expecting quality scriptwriting or believable dialogue from modern Hollywood is asking too much.

 Psienesis wrote:

but I would use big-name actors only in supporting parts, as walk-on roles, and the like, as Lucas did with Cushing and Guinness in ANH.

Again, "Star Wars did it" isn't a sensible reason. However, I'd agree with this part only because Hollywood exces rarely hire big-name actors for much more than rehashing the same role?

 Psienesis wrote:

So you have the Inquisitor, who should be female and ass-kicking,

Generic,

 Psienesis wrote:

with various romantic interests between two or three other characters

generic

 Psienesis wrote:

(maybe one of which is presented as an "old flame", like a wealthy Rogue Trader, that has some conflict with one of the new ones).

and generic. You don't dethrone something like Star Wars with a cliche storm.

 Psienesis wrote:

It makes mention of things like "the Heresy" and "the Second War of Armageddon" and the like, without going into any details (as Lucas did with mentioning the Clone Wars in A New Hope). This lets the audience fill in the blanks with their own imagination.

And again, "Star Wars did it" is a poor reason.

Furthermore, currently, Hollywood movies spoon-feed the audience everything. An adaptation that allows the audience to think for themselves is out of the question.

If they made a film that was as big as star wars in scale it could be just as big but they would want to charge 3-6 times the price for a regular ticket to see the film minimizing viewers.

Tyranno wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

It would need first a blockbuster movie that introduced a group of characters that defined the setting. I'm thinking something like an Inquisitoral warband that has psykers, IG Stormtroopers, a couple Space Marines of different Chapters

See, hoping for characters who themselves have defined, non-cliched personalties is probably already the limit of expections of an adapation in todays world

 Psienesis wrote:

and some Tyranids,

I'm already questioning how Tyranids could be given any minor role without derailing the lore.

 Psienesis wrote:

You introduce some of the basic stuff... Hive cities, Agri Worlds, the gothic-baroque spaceships, etc, but you don't try to go 'round the Imperium in forty days. Just some hints at the variety of settings in the Imperium (SW4 had only 5 areas, after all... the wastes of Tattooine, Mos Eisley, the Falcon, the Death Star, Yavin IV, and then the space battle).

OTOH, "Star Wars did it" is a mentality for something that won't come close to it. How many creature features emulated Jaws; how many were similar quality-wise? Is Eragon exalted as being of comparable quality to SW? Or is Eragon often reviled for similarities?

 Psienesis wrote:
.
CGI for all the psychic stuff would need to be top-notch

Better yet, no CGI. Pretty much anything else.

 Psienesis wrote:

and the dialog needs to pop. The plotting needs to be tight, too.

However, expecting quality scriptwriting or believable dialogue from modern Hollywood is asking too much.

 Psienesis wrote:

but I would use big-name actors only in supporting parts, as walk-on roles, and the like, as Lucas did with Cushing and Guinness in ANH.

Again, "Star Wars did it" isn't a sensible reason. However, I'd agree with this part only because Hollywood exces rarely hire big-name actors for much more than rehashing the same role?

 Psienesis wrote:

So you have the Inquisitor, who should be female and ass-kicking,

Generic,

 Psienesis wrote:

with various romantic interests between two or three other characters

generic

 Psienesis wrote:

(maybe one of which is presented as an "old flame", like a wealthy Rogue Trader, that has some conflict with one of the new ones).

and generic. You don't dethrone something like Star Wars with a cliche storm.

 Psienesis wrote:

It makes mention of things like "the Heresy" and "the Second War of Armageddon" and the like, without going into any details (as Lucas did with mentioning the Clone Wars in A New Hope). This lets the audience fill in the blanks with their own imagination.

And again, "Star Wars did it" is a poor reason.

Furthermore, currently, Hollywood movies spoon-feed the audience everything. An adaptation that allows the audience to think for themselves is out of the question.

Did you miss the part I lead in with? "In a perfect world". That implies (more like outright states) that it doesn't involve the realities of Hollywood. And, no, not every Hollywood movie spoon-feeds the audience. There's been several films in recent years that have avoided doing this. There are also *plenty* of movies released in the last 20 years with great characters, great dialog, great plotting and great action. It's not impossible, it's just that the current crop of writers and directors working in Hollywood aren't very good at that task, and studios aren't expecting it, because movies have been declining in overall popularity in favor of television or DVD offerings.

As far as "no CGI" goes... not sure how you would show a Psyker throwing lightning bolts or a ship traveling through the Immaterium without CGI. There's no way to do that with practical effects without looking like some Ed Wood film.

As far as what you've listed as cliched and generic...

There's very few Hollywood movies with a strong female lead. There's Salt, Aeon Flux, Ultraviolet, Kill Bill, Underworld, Resident Evil, and Hunger Games, and of those, only Hunger Games has really seen massive popularity. RE is now direct-to-DVD, and Underworld was always kind of terrible. Salt was not particularly blockbusting, AF basically sucked, UV was very indie, and Kill Bill, being a Tarantino movie, attracts only a certain audience. Having a strong female lead is actually rarer in Hollywood than unicorns are.

The comparisons to SW are apt because, as the thread title says, the point here is to compare it to SW. I could point out a dozen other films with limited settings or locations, but that's not the point of the exercise.

You know why romantic triangles are cliche? Because they drive plot, they generate interest, they get people emotionally invested in the characters and relationships, and they have a proven track record in winning fans.

Also you could totally have a minor reference to Tyranids without breaking the fluff. The movie opens with an action sequence of the Inquisitor and her warband purging the last remnants of a gene-stealer cult. It would get the audience immediately interested in the movie by starting with a bang and provide the chance to get a little characterization fleshed out without the characters needing to sit around talking for the first 15 minutes (like the Tooth Fairy scene in Hellboy 2 if you've ever seen that movie. I actually really loved it. Apparently most people didn't as much though...)

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Creative Assembly is making a WHFB game.

They are?!!!
. . .
Well, there goes my free time.

 Psienesis wrote:
I*Then*, after it releases, you have the marketing and merchandizing blitz. You put the 40K name on *everything*, whether that's toys, video games, Happy Meal tie-ins, Dixie cups or toilet paper. You have to follow the Lucas model and make the name ubiquitous in society. You spin off a bunch of side-story comics, books, TV shows, and all of that, telling stories from different parts of the galaxy.

*shudder* you paint a truly terrifying image.

I think what a lot of young people dont understand is just how much Star Wars changed what movies had done. You probably don't remember (or have never seen outside of bad youtube) Flash Gordon. When the space ship swung on wires and had a sparkler coming out its butt. The closest thing visually at the time was Star Trek the TV series, but if you look closely at it, the ship was always still with the background and or camera zooming in. The aliens were people with make up and heavy costuming.

Star Wars actually had space ships with independent motion. Yeah the toy was swinging down a wire, but that little wobble gave the ship an independant motion that just made it seem more real. It wasn't a static model with just the background moving.

The muppets and costuming were revolutionary. You no longer had people in ape suits (I.E. The original planet of the apes). The prostetics were so complete that it didn't break the illusion because you never saw the human inside the mask.

Have you listened to the background music in any movie older than Star Wars? Unless it was a moment of epic importance there isn't any. The way music is worked into the actual movie as a character amplifier itself was paramount to its impact.

Young people have seen what Star Wars has influenced over and over and over in thousands of different works, as such when you see Star Wars you don't really see it as that big of a deal. However, if you were around like us in 1977, you would understand just how game changing it really was. Star Wars was an all together new experience.

I think its impossible for anything to dethrone it, after all, you can only do something first once.

Jayden, your analysis has problems.
Flash Gordon came out after Star Wars, and looked so gawd-awful because they wanted it to be as cheesy as possible. (They had friggin QUEEN write the theme.)

Also, plenty of movies had music all over the place pre-Star Wars, it just wasn't as commonplace.

if it could have been, it would have been by now.

That would require GW to do a lot of things right . . . not their area of expertise. They can't even keep their current fanbase from shrinking.