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PipeAlley wrote: Well, you're also throwing the opp. off his game at least a little bit. Even the best players don't like a wrench in their works.
Also, turn 2 assault may allow you to synergize your charge with some other units: bikes, things that dropped podded, etc.
Good players don't care. They expect it as soon as they see the vanguard in the list. They just turn the disruption into an advantage, as you have gimped your list somewhere else to pay for said Vanguard. They just don't bring enough utility/staying power for their cost. Just like practically everything in C:BA.
The "synergy" you speak of is staggered by a turn, which can prove quite fatal. The drop pod units will arrive, be unable to assault and then get shot up before the vanguards arrive.
I disagree, I have used vanguard in many 'friendly' games and also in a tournament and no one could handle them. They drop in and destroy whatever you had planned. They then soak up a massive amount of fire allowing the rest of your army to move up into combat.
If the vanguard are in your list, whatever role you have equipped them for, they will complete it.
This is an interesting claim, because in reality they are trivial to handle due to their horrible wound/pt ratio. My plan A is to kill all your models. That guarantees the win. You bringing Vanguard helps my plan A greatly. They soak up no more fire than a standard tac marine and cost three times as much. More than three times the way you have them equipped.
It sounds like your opponents needlessly panic when presented with models that are really quite poor for the cost. Where I play, vanguard provoke mirth more than anything else.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/07 14:14:31
Lucarikx wrote: I agree with Martel. Vanguard are cute, but I'd rather take 2 more Razorback ASM squads or a Stormraven for the points.
Lucarikx
The concept is very solid, but the cost is just too high. Like so many other units in 40K. GW's inability to fairly price units strikes again. That's all I'm asking for. Fast razorbacks can at least exploit some cover shenanigans, even though HP gimp them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/07 14:24:40
PipeAlley wrote: Well, you're also throwing the opp. off his game at least a little bit. Even the best players don't like a wrench in their works.
Also, turn 2 assault may allow you to synergize your charge with some other units: bikes, things that dropped podded, etc.
Good players don't care. They expect it as soon as they see the vanguard in the list. They just turn the disruption into an advantage, as you have gimped your list somewhere else to pay for said Vanguard. They just don't bring enough utility/staying power for their cost. Just like practically everything in C:BA.
The "synergy" you speak of is staggered by a turn, which can prove quite fatal. The drop pod units will arrive, be unable to assault and then get shot up before the vanguards arrive.
I disagree, I have used vanguard in many 'friendly' games and also in a tournament and no one could handle them. They drop in and destroy whatever you had planned. They then soak up a massive amount of fire allowing the rest of your army to move up into combat.
If the vanguard are in your list, whatever role you have equipped them for, they will complete it.
This is an interesting claim, because in reality they are trivial to handle due to their horrible wound/pt ratio. My plan A is to kill all your models. That guarantees the win. You bringing Vanguard helps my plan A greatly. They soak up no more fire than a standard tac marine and cost three times as much. More than three times the way you have them equipped.
Well I have experience using them your argument is based on theory.
in some other games I have used vanguard to take out a devestator squad which had 4 lacannons, the dev squad was on a hill in the corner because their weapons are 48 inch range so after I wiped them out there was nothing to shoot at me in my opponents next turn. My vanguard have jump packs so I can move 12' so it wasn't hard to get them back into the battle to assault other things.
I played against eldar in a tournament and he had 2 fire prisms on the flank together. I deep striked in and multi assaulted both tanks wiping them out.
I took out an imperial knight with my vanguard with power fists and melta bombs.
The fact is that every game the opponent sets up differently. Some games they have a dev squad that that is hiding in a ruin or on a hill and you can wipe them out. Some games they may have a couple of tanks sitting next to each other and you multi assault and wipe them out.
If your opponent has something nasty that you cnt deal with then the vanguard really help out. If there is a riptide that shoots your armies to bits of a tau crisis suits team that shoots your army to bits then deep strike in the vanguard and take them out.
LOL. My experience is NOT based on theory. I have played against them many times, especially when they were the rage in 5th. The single biggest problem with them, other than the outrageous cost, is that your opponent gets to see them in your list before set up. This means they can deploy to and effectively metagame your vanguards to where they are not effective. I can guarantee you that even three squads of these guys will kill nothing in my list that I care about.
Your opponents are cooperating with you in these games, giving you a false sense of efficacy. People who are familiar with vanguards can trivially neutralize them and then exploit the fact that you have gimped your list to bring them.
Don't mistake my inability to win games as a sign of not understanding the game. I KNOW exactly how to beat the Eldar. It's just that my codex doesn't allow me to bring an army that can mathematically accomplish this.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/07 14:32:27
For what it's worth, the Blood Angels player at our FLGS has surprisingly good luck with Vanguards. He builds his army around deep strike assault and reserve roll manipulation (Do inquisitors manipulate deep strike rolls, or is that Grey Knights?). In any case, he is able to fairly reliably bring in two squads of 10 Vanguards on the same turn, and he simultaneously flat-out's all his fast tanks for a 24" move. It plays very different from other armies, and is successful against our local meta.
Martel732 wrote: LOL. My experience is NOT based on theory. I have played against them many times, especially when they were the rage in 5th. The single biggest problem with them, other than the outrageous cost, is that your opponent gets to see them in your list before set up. This means they can deploy to and effectively metagame your vanguards to where they are not effective. I can guarantee you that even three squads of these guys will kill nothing in my list that I care about.
Your opponents are cooperating with you in these games, giving you a false sense of efficacy. People who are familiar with vanguards can trivially neutralize them and then exploit the fact that you have gimped your list to bring them.
Your opponent cannot do anything to stop the vanguard killing whattever they want to. Also if you seeing me have vanguard in my list means that you don't deploy your dev squad on the hill that gives you LOS to the whole battle and instead you deploy behind your tactical marines in the middle of your army granting all of my troops a 5+ cover because you have to shoot through your own troops and your LOS is blocked by buildings etc then that is fine by me lol keep doing that.
Also remember it is not your whole army against my vanguards like you are painting the picture to be. I also deep strike drop pods (2 in turn 1 and 1 in turn 2) and i lso have my own dev squads and tanks etc.
If me having vanguard in my list forces you to deploy your whole army in 1 big bunch in the corner of the table then that's fine by me, I will spend 2 turns moving up my death company/assault marines on the flank you have no troops where there is LOS blocking buildings and so all my assault units will get into combat without even being shot at.
Just remember that I get 2 turns of shooting at you and 2 turns of moving the rest of my army including assaulting you with other troops before my vanguard arrive.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DanielBeaver wrote: For what it's worth, the Blood Angels player at our FLGS has surprisingly good luck with Vanguards. He builds his army around deep strike assault and reserve roll manipulation (Do inquisitors manipulate deep strike rolls, or is that Grey Knights?). In any case, he is able to fairly reliably bring in two squads of 10 Vanguards on the same turn, and he simultaneously flat-out's all his fast tanks for a 24" move. It plays very different from other armies, and is successful against our local meta.
Blood ngels in jump packs can re-roll failed reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6 and if you have an inquisitor with servo skulls then the blood angles with jump packs do not scatter, it is very nasty.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/07 14:39:58
I don't use dev squads. Because scatter lasers blow them off the table.
Actually, your opponent has several options. They can take advantage of the inability of Vanguard to deep strike into terrain. They can bubble wrap. They can set up kill zones to kill your overcosted vanguards while keeping LOS on your other army elements.
Yeah, you have other units, but fewer than normal, because you overpaid for vanguard. AND you are piecemealing your own forces. The Vanguards aren't there to be potential targets on turn 1, so the rest of your list is taking all the hits.
"Just remember that I get 2 turns of shooting at you and 2 turns of moving the rest of my army including assaulting you with other troops before my vanguard arrive. "
You are playing BA. No one cares about your shooting. Or your assault, really. You won't make it there.
"Blood ngels in jump packs can re-roll failed reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6 and if you have an inquisitor with servo skulls then the blood angles with jump packs do not scatter, it is very nasty."
No, not really. Been there,done that. Firepower still trumps it. Badly.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/07 14:41:58
Martel732 wrote: I don't use dev squads. Because scatter lasers blow them off the table.
Actually, your opponent has several options. They can take advantage of the inability of Vanguard to deep strike into terrain. They can bubble wrap. They can set up kill zones to kill your overcosted vanguards while keeping LOS on your other army elements.
Yeah, you have other units, but fewer than normal, because you overpaid for vanguard. AND you are piecemealing your own forces. The Vanguards aren't there to be potential targets on turn 1, so the rest of your list is taking all the hits.
"Just remember that I get 2 turns of shooting at you and 2 turns of moving the rest of my army including assaulting you with other troops before my vanguard arrive. "
You are playing BA. No one cares about your shooting. Or your assault, really. You won't make it there.
"Blood ngels in jump packs can re-roll failed reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6 and if you have an inquisitor with servo skulls then the blood angles with jump packs do not scatter, it is very nasty."
No, not really. Been there,done that. Firepower still trumps it. Badly.
Debating with you is pointless, you believe whatever nonsense you want to believe and I will continue to know that Vanguard are worth it.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use dev squads. Because scatter lasers blow them off the table.
Actually, your opponent has several options. They can take advantage of the inability of Vanguard to deep strike into terrain. They can bubble wrap. They can set up kill zones to kill your overcosted vanguards while keeping LOS on your other army elements.
Yeah, you have other units, but fewer than normal, because you overpaid for vanguard. AND you are piecemealing your own forces. The Vanguards aren't there to be potential targets on turn 1, so the rest of your list is taking all the hits.
"Just remember that I get 2 turns of shooting at you and 2 turns of moving the rest of my army including assaulting you with other troops before my vanguard arrive. "
You are playing BA. No one cares about your shooting. Or your assault, really. You won't make it there.
"Blood ngels in jump packs can re-roll failed reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6 and if you have an inquisitor with servo skulls then the blood angles with jump packs do not scatter, it is very nasty."
No, not really. Been there,done that. Firepower still trumps it. Badly.
Just for fun Martel, can you imagine a winning vanguard strategy? I can teach any opp. (and I do especially new players) exactly how to beat my Orks. Funny thing is a lot of people don't listen to me because they either think I'm tricking them or think they know it all.
Please accept the OP's challenge of making a viable Vanguard list.
There isn't one, because the BA are overcosted across the board. The BA can't muster a consistently winning force even using the most efficient units in the codex. Or at least what passes for efficiency in that codex. No, I can't imagine a winning Vanguard strategy. You simply can't spend ~500 on 15 meqs and expect things to go your way. It didn't work in 5th and certainly won't work in 6th.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use dev squads. Because scatter lasers blow them off the table.
Actually, your opponent has several options. They can take advantage of the inability of Vanguard to deep strike into terrain. They can bubble wrap. They can set up kill zones to kill your overcosted vanguards while keeping LOS on your other army elements.
Yeah, you have other units, but fewer than normal, because you overpaid for vanguard. AND you are piecemealing your own forces. The Vanguards aren't there to be potential targets on turn 1, so the rest of your list is taking all the hits.
"Just remember that I get 2 turns of shooting at you and 2 turns of moving the rest of my army including assaulting you with other troops before my vanguard arrive. "
You are playing BA. No one cares about your shooting. Or your assault, really. You won't make it there.
"Blood ngels in jump packs can re-roll failed reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6 and if you have an inquisitor with servo skulls then the blood angles with jump packs do not scatter, it is very nasty."
No, not really. Been there,done that. Firepower still trumps it. Badly.
Debating with you is pointless, you believe whatever nonsense you want to believe and I will continue to know that Vanguard are worth it.
It's not a belief. It is a fact, borne out by mathematics and game results. You can also continue to pay for horribly overcosted models. I like it how known facts about BA are now "nonsense".
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/04/07 15:26:33
Martel732 wrote: There isn't one, because the BA are overcosted across the board. The BA can't muster a consistently winning force even using the most efficient units in the codex. Or at least what passes for efficiency in that codex. No, I can't imagine a winning Vanguard strategy. You simply can't spend ~500 on 15 meqs and expect things to go your way. It didn't work in 5th and certainly won't work in 6th.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use dev squads. Because scatter lasers blow them off the table.
Actually, your opponent has several options. They can take advantage of the inability of Vanguard to deep strike into terrain. They can bubble wrap. They can set up kill zones to kill your overcosted vanguards while keeping LOS on your other army elements.
Yeah, you have other units, but fewer than normal, because you overpaid for vanguard. AND you are piecemealing your own forces. The Vanguards aren't there to be potential targets on turn 1, so the rest of your list is taking all the hits.
"Just remember that I get 2 turns of shooting at you and 2 turns of moving the rest of my army including assaulting you with other troops before my vanguard arrive. "
You are playing BA. No one cares about your shooting. Or your assault, really. You won't make it there.
"Blood ngels in jump packs can re-roll failed reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6 and if you have an inquisitor with servo skulls then the blood angles with jump packs do not scatter, it is very nasty."
No, not really. Been there,done that. Firepower still trumps it. Badly.
Debating with you is pointless, you believe whatever nonsense you want to believe and I will continue to know that Vanguard are worth it.
It's not a belief. It is a fact, borne out by mathematics and game results. You can also continue to pay for horribly overcosted models. I like it how known facts about BA are now "nonsense".
Known facts? The fact is they are great, I use them. Your only strategy is to bubble wrap your whole army in one corner of the board and has highlighted that is not a great strategy. Might work if you are tau or IG but not for nearly ever other army. lso you said blood angels are crap at shooting, we still have dev squads and tanks and as you should know 6th edition allows for allies so I could easily ally in some eldar for shooting or imperial guard. Or I could be an eldar player and ally in Blood angles so I can get Vanguard. it is very simple.
Also your tactic for dealing with vanguard will make you lose games. Bubble wrapping your whole army in one corner means you wont be able to get the relic if playing that mission or get objectives or get line breaker etc etc.
Me taking vanguard will make you put everything together in 1 corner meaning you will lose the game.
Scouts are there just to bulk up the scoring. Skulls placed so that the opponent has to move too close to the flat out moving raiders to get rid of them. LRs have a 5+ cover due to shield. Scouts go to ground until turn 2 when opponent will have more pressing issues.
It has absolutely no AA. I could not fit a raven in there and keep it decent enough.
There is my best shot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: VVs are stupidly overcosted for what they do however!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/07 15:43:57
I don't have to put everything in a corner turn 1. I never once said that. YOU said that.
I can bubblewrap if necessary by using both units and terrain. As long as my units can support each other, I don't need to group up in the corner. This assumes that I even have anything I care that much about. A big part of this game is spreading the wealth out amongst many units or using indestructible death stars. Both approaches make your vanguards useless. Being a Space Wolf player makes your vanguards useless.
Yes, your Vanguards will do damage. But as I pointed out above, this cost 500 pts out of your list. 500 pts that will be easily eliminated in one of shooting.
Bringing in allies muddies the water a lot. Yes, mixing in a good codex will make BA better, but won't change the fact that vanguards are extremely overcosted and have horrendous durability.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/07 15:46:56
Funny, champagne_socialist, that you think sitting in a corner will make you lose. A lot of the armies in the game LIVE on sitting in the corner.
Devs are literally the worst unit in the BA 'dex right now next to Baals, Sanguinary Guard, and finally Vanguard Vets. Vanguard Vets are not as amazing as you think.
I want you to explain to me how you're gonna deal with this 1850 Tau army (based on the list that got 2nd at FoB Inv) while using Vanguard. Its extremely mobile and focuses on constantly pressing with Riptides, while taking objectives with large blobs of Kroot.
Lucarikx wrote: Funny, champagne_socialist, that you think sitting in a corner will make you lose. A lot of the armies in the game LIVE on sitting in the corner.
Devs are literally the worst unit in the BA 'dex right now next to Baals, Sanguinary Guard, and finally Vanguard Vets. Vanguard Vets are not as amazing as you think.
I want you to explain to me how you're gonna deal with this 1850 Tau army (based on the list that got 2nd at FoB Inv) while using Vanguard. Its extremely mobile and focuses on constantly pressing with Riptides, while taking objectives with large blobs of Kroot.
Baals are not the worst unit in the codex by a pretty large margin. They are fast, which means they can lay down 12 shots while moving 6". In the FA slot. They only suffer in 6th because of hull points. Yes, WS make them look lame. But to quote Cheryl, DUH!
For worst units, you also forgot any non-level 1 libby, non-Mephiston HQ, and DC.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/07 15:57:42
Well, Baals can be useful. Especially in an AV13 wall list. Like most things in the 'dex, they're a bit overpriced, but do have a nice place in the army, as nothing really competes with them in the FA slot other than Attack Bikes.
And yeah, all of our SCHQs other than Meph are terrible. Heck, we only have 2 good HQs, Meph and a Lvl 1 Libby with no upgrades.
Lucarikx
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/07 15:57:50
Martel732 wrote: I don't have to put everything in a corner turn 1. I never once said that. YOU said that.
I can bubblewrap if necessary by using both units and terrain. As long as my units can support each other, I don't need to group up in the corner. This assumes that I even have anything I care that much about. A big part of this game is spreading the wealth out amongst many units or using indestructible death stars. Both approaches make your vanguards useless. Being a Space Wolf player makes your vanguards useless.
Yes, your Vanguards will do damage. But as I pointed out above, this cost 500 pts out of your list. 500 pts that will be easily eliminated in one of shooting.
Bringing in allies muddies the water a lot. Yes, mixing in a good codex will make BA better, but won't change the fact that vanguards are extremely overcosted and have horrendous durability.
Where are you getting 500 points from? I usually only take 1 vanguard squad and if I am using it as a tank hunter it is 185 points which includes 3 melta bombs,1 krak grenandes and a power fist. 185 points to take out 1 or 2 tanks is worth it. If I was up against Tau and wanted to use them to take out a riptide then I would maybe change the load out but 3 melt bombs a krak grenande and a power fist should be enough, I might add on a few naked anguard to take wounds and even then they automatically come with krak grenandes.
You keep saying vanguard are useless but they destroy tanks with ease or dedicated range squads such as devestator squads or crisis suits etc. And you keep acting as if your whole army will be alive on turn 2 when they arrive and that noting else from my army will be in assault range by turn 2.
Allies doesn't muddy the waters at all. It is part of 6th edition and we are debating if vanguard are good. Doesn't matter if the vanguard are in a 100% blood angles army or an army wioth Tau or an eldar army who have got some blood angels allies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lucarikx wrote: Well, Baals can be useful. Especially in an AV13 wall list. Like most things in the 'dex, they're a bit overpriced, but do have a nice place in the army, as nothing really competes with them in the FA slot other than Attack Bikes.
And yeah, all of our SCHQs other than Meph are terrible. Heck, we only have 2 good HQs, Meph and a Lvl 1 Libby with no upgrades.
Lucarikx
I would love meph but his power weapon is ap3. for 250 points he really needs an ap2 weapon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/07 16:03:55
I still need an answer to that Tau list. If a Tau player doesn't intercept that Vanguard squad with an Iontide, he deserves to lose the game. Act like the entire army is gonna be alive T2? Do you know how difficult is its to put down 3 Riptides in 1 turn?
" If I was up against Tau and wanted to use them to take out a riptide then I would maybe change the load out but 3 melt bombs a krak grenande and a power fist should be enough, I might add on a few naked anguard to take wounds and even then they automatically come with krak grenandes. "
What about a TAC situation? That's another huge problem with BA. What does your list look like against an unknown opponent?
I'm getting 500 pts from three squads. So at least with only one squad, you are limiting your losses to 185 pts for 5 guys. And no one is going to let you assault their Riptides with your Vanguard.
" And you keep acting as if your whole army will be alive on turn 2 when they arrive and that noting else from my army will be in assault range by turn 2. "
And you keep acting like your list didn't get the piss shot out of it on turn 1 because you are BA. And BA throw weight is miserable. What do you expect to accomplish in one turn of BA shooting?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lucarikx wrote: I still need an answer to that Tau list. If a Tau player doesn't intercept that Vanguard squad with an Iontide, he deserves to lose the game. Act like the entire army is gonna be alive T2? Do you know how difficult is its to put down 3 Riptides in 1 turn?
Lucarikx
BA are lucky to kill a single Riptide over the course of a GAME.
"I would love meph but his power weapon is ap3. for 250 points he really needs an ap2 weapon."
Actually, that's not his biggest problem at all. He's not to take on other ICs, he's a bully. He's one of the best bullies ever, too. His problem is that a bunch of jerk off plasma vets can kill him pretty easily. Again, a shooting problem.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/04/07 16:09:02
Lucarikx wrote: Funny, champagne_socialist, that you think sitting in a corner will make you lose. A lot of the armies in the game LIVE on sitting in the corner.
Devs are literally the worst unit in the BA 'dex right now next to Baals, Sanguinary Guard, and finally Vanguard Vets. Vanguard Vets are not as amazing as you think.
I want you to explain to me how you're gonna deal with this 1850 Tau army (based on the list that got 2nd at FoB Inv) while using Vanguard. Its extremely mobile and focuses on constantly pressing with Riptides, while taking objectives with large blobs of Kroot.
Heavy:
Broadsides (3 man, Missiles, x3 Target Locks, x6 Marker Drones)
Sky Ray (SMS, Blacksun)
Sky Ray (SMS, Blacksun)
Lucarikx
Woah woah woah... hold the phone! BAALS? I love baals! The rest - yep im with ya!
Well a drop pod army would do well. tactical troops in drop pods with bolters and a flamer to take out the kroot and sternguard drop pods with metlas to take out the riptides. vanguard arriving in turn 2 would charge whatever hasn't been killed by all my drop pods arriving in turn 1and all the drop pods arriving in turn 2.
Sternguard w/ 10 Combi-meltas (assuming half of em aren't killed dead my intercepting Ion accelerators) hit 6 times, do 5 wounds, save 2~. Look, you did 3 wounds to a Riptide! Time for the entire first wave to die.
Do not assume a Tau player will let you keep stuff like Sternguard or Vanguard around.
I still need a fleshed out list that can have a chance of beating that list.
Lucarikx
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/07 16:15:13
Martel732 wrote: " If I was up against Tau and wanted to use them to take out a riptide then I would maybe change the load out but 3 melt bombs a krak grenande and a power fist should be enough, I might add on a few naked anguard to take wounds and even then they automatically come with krak grenandes. "
What about a TAC situation? That's another huge problem with BA. What does your list look like against an unknown opponent?
I'm getting 500 pts from three squads. So at least with only one squad, you are limiting your losses to 185 pts for 5 guys. And no one is going to let you assault their Riptides with your Vanguard.
" And you keep acting as if your whole army will be alive on turn 2 when they arrive and that noting else from my army will be in assault range by turn 2. "
And you keep acting like your list didn't get the piss shot out of it on turn 1 because you are BA. And BA throw weight is miserable. What do you expect to accomplish in one turn of BA shooting?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lucarikx wrote: I still need an answer to that Tau list. If a Tau player doesn't intercept that Vanguard squad with an Iontide, he deserves to lose the game. Act like the entire army is gonna be alive T2? Do you know how difficult is its to put down 3 Riptides in 1 turn?
Lucarikx
BA are lucky to kill a single Riptide over the course of a GAME.
"I would love meph but his power weapon is ap3. for 250 points he really needs an ap2 weapon."
Actually, that's not his biggest problem at all. He's not to take on other ICs, he's a bully. He's one of the best bullies ever, too. His problem is that a bunch of jerk off plasma vets can kill him pretty easily. Again, a shooting problem.
if I use vanguard I use a drop pod heavy army and a deep strike heavy army.
It is very easy to use vanguard effectively, you are just in denial that they are not effective. A close combat unit that can assault the turn it deep strikes is amazing.
"It is very easy to use vanguard effectively, you are just in denial that they are not effective. A close combat unit that can assault the turn it deep strikes is amazing"
Not when its 5 T4 Marines........ You need to understand that the meta is about durability more than CC damage output at this point. IG are gonna make that even more concrete.
Sternguard w/ 10 Combi-meltas (assuming half of em aren't killed dead my intercepting Ion accelerators) hit 6 times, do 5 wounds, save 2~. Look, you did 3 wounds to a Riptide! Time for the entire first wave to die.
Do not assume a Tau player will let you keep stuff like Sternguard or Vanguard around.
I still need a fleshed out list that can have a chance of beating that list.
Lucarikx
I wouldnt put 10 in the same unit.
also if the kroot start off the table then my bolters in drop pods dont deep strike in 1st turn, I use the melta guys to deep strike in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lucarikx wrote: "It is very easy to use vanguard effectively, you are just in denial that they are not effective. A close combat unit that can assault the turn it deep strikes is amazing"
Not when its 5 T4 Marines........ You need to understand that the meta is about durability more than CC damage output at this point. IG are gonna make that even more concrete.
Lucarikx
i use them, they work. They can assault from deep strike so their tougness makes no difference. I assault a tank there is no overwatch and i destroy it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/07 16:19:07
Lucarikx wrote: I still need an answer to that Tau list. If a Tau player doesn't intercept that Vanguard squad with an Iontide, he deserves to lose the game. Act like the entire army is gonna be alive T2? Do you know how difficult is its to put down 3 Riptides in 1 turn?
Lucarikx
When I take my riptides and I see VV deepstriking I will ripple fire my SMS. Also, I usually take a Firebase Formation. Which means my broadsides and 1 Riptide will have preferred enemy. That means 40 ignore cover shots at BS 3.5 coming at the VV. I particularly do not like to fire the ION template without markerlight support.
Sternguard w/ 10 Combi-meltas (assuming half of em aren't killed dead my intercepting Ion accelerators) hit 6 times, do 5 wounds, save 2~. Look, you did 3 wounds to a Riptide! Time for the entire first wave to die.
Do not assume a Tau player will let you keep stuff like Sternguard or Vanguard around.
I still need a fleshed out list that can have a chance of beating that list.
Lucarikx
I wouldnt put 10 in the same unit.
also if the kroot start off the table then my bolters in drop pods dont deep strike in 1st turn, I use the melta guys to deep strike in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lucarikx wrote: "It is very easy to use vanguard effectively, you are just in denial that they are not effective. A close combat unit that can assault the turn it deep strikes is amazing"
Not when its 5 T4 Marines........ You need to understand that the meta is about durability more than CC damage output at this point. IG are gonna make that even more concrete.
Lucarikx
i use them, they work. They can assault from deep strike so their tougness makes no difference. I assault a tank there is no overwatch and i destroy it.
Show me a list that beats the one I gave you then.
I've played on both sides of the table dude. BA Vanguards are terribad in a competitive environment.
Lucarikx wrote: I still need an answer to that Tau list. If a Tau player doesn't intercept that Vanguard squad with an Iontide, he deserves to lose the game. Act like the entire army is gonna be alive T2? Do you know how difficult is its to put down 3 Riptides in 1 turn?
Lucarikx
When I take my riptides and I see VV deepstriking I will ripple fire my SMS. Also, I usually take a Firebase Formation. Which means my broadsides and 1 Riptide will have preferred enemy. That means 40 ignore cover shots at BS 3.5 coming at the VV. I particularly do not like to fire the ION template without markerlight support.
Point proven, either way. No Tau player will let you get away with DSing units.
Lucarikx
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/07 16:23:20
Sternguard w/ 10 Combi-meltas (assuming half of em aren't killed dead my intercepting Ion accelerators) hit 6 times, do 5 wounds, save 2~. Look, you did 3 wounds to a Riptide! Time for the entire first wave to die.
Do not assume a Tau player will let you keep stuff like Sternguard or Vanguard around.
I still need a fleshed out list that can have a chance of beating that list.
Lucarikx
I wouldnt put 10 in the same unit.
also if the kroot start off the table then my bolters in drop pods dont deep strike in 1st turn, I use the melta guys to deep strike in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lucarikx wrote: "It is very easy to use vanguard effectively, you are just in denial that they are not effective. A close combat unit that can assault the turn it deep strikes is amazing"
Not when its 5 T4 Marines........ You need to understand that the meta is about durability more than CC damage output at this point. IG are gonna make that even more concrete.
Lucarikx
i use them, they work. They can assault from deep strike so their tougness makes no difference. I assault a tank there is no overwatch and i destroy it.
Show me a list that beats the one I gave you then.
I've played on both sides of the table dude. BA Vanguards are terribad in a competitive environment.
Lucarikx wrote: I still need an answer to that Tau list. If a Tau player doesn't intercept that Vanguard squad with an Iontide, he deserves to lose the game. Act like the entire army is gonna be alive T2? Do you know how difficult is its to put down 3 Riptides in 1 turn?
Lucarikx
When I take my riptides and I see VV deepstriking I will ripple fire my SMS. Also, I usually take a Firebase Formation. Which means my broadsides and 1 Riptide will have preferred enemy. That means 40 ignore cover shots at BS 3.5 coming at the VV. I particularly do not like to fire the ION template without markerlight support.
Point proven, either way. No Tau player will let you get away with DSing units.
Lucarikx
So being able to take out tanks with ease is useless? being able to take out rnged weapons units is useless hahaha
Like I said in my tournament a squad of 8 vanguard destroyed an Imperial knight, they could easily destroy a wraithknight etc etc
