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Martel732 wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.

In your opinion, which to me means diddly squat.

Between 5th and 6th, I've faced nearly every permutation of BA list possible. I've beaten them 85% of the time, because I understand the codex well. VERY well. I was even giving C:SM players the blues a bit until the gravstar come into vogue. You can ignore my opinion, but that doesn't give any validity to yours. I have mathematics and practical experience on my side. And many rapings from Tau and Eldar on my resume as well. I know how they work in the hands of good players, and BA have no answers.

we can all make arguments based on anectodal evidence eg I have played 20 gmes with blood angels and won 18 etc etc.

You say you have maths on your side but you really diont. If a 185 point unit charges a 265 point land raider and destroys it then The vanguard have got there oints back mathematically. if they charge a seer council or 2 imperial guard tanks etc etc you don't have any maths on your side.

I will ignore your opinion because it is worthless. I have used vanguard and they took out whatever I wanted them to take out

Why would someone let that happen? It sounds like you have big fish in little pond syndrome. Sounds like a lot of baby seal clubbing to me.

" I have used vanguard and they took out whatever I wanted them to take out"

Then your opponents are idiots and it's not my opinion that's worthless in that case.

"we can all make arguments based on anectodal evidence eg I have played 20 gmes with blood angels and won 18 etc etc."

It stops being anecdotal with a large data set. BA is the only army I own, and it was very popular in 5th. I have a TON of data backing me.

you have nothing backing you up hahaha a unit worth 185 points taking out a land raider worth 265 points or other highly cost tanks screws you over. A unit of vanguard worth 165 points taking out a dev squad worth the same amount of points means that they are cost effective. you have nothing hahah

No evidence but 50+ games and better problem solving skills.............

I have a feeling champagne_socialist won't listen to a thing anyone says. Here's a tip, go play in a big tournament, come back home 0-7, and tell us that Vanguard are still good and "kill everything you point it at".

If it actually works (which it won't most of the time), maybe all of us would actually believe you, because at this point you are very uniformed and suffer from big-fish-in-little-pond syndrome.

Lucarikx

 Lucarikx wrote:
No evidence but 50+ games and better problem solving skills.............

I have a feeling champagne_socialist won't listen to a thing anyone says. Here's a tip, go play in a big tournament, come back home 0-7, and tell us that Vanguard are still good and "kill everything you point it at". Maybe if you do that, all of us would actually believe you, because at this point you are very uniformed and suffer from big-fish-in-little-pond syndrome.

Lucarikx

I've whipped the same BA guy like 5 times now and he keeps blaming the dice. I don't know what to do about that. I have a feeling similar thinking is at work now. Or he is just trolling us. Consider us trolled.

Guys, don't bother. I've debated against him in previous threads before. Either he is a troll or supremely ignorant/hard-headed as every time he changes the goal posts or goes into the camp of "LALALA I'M NOT LISTENING!". It's a waste of your time and you've already proven yourselves to be in the right. Let him scurry back to his own small pond with his delusions, it's his fault for not listening to reason.

It's not like I don't WANT them to be good, they just AREN'T.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not like I don't WANT them to be good, they just AREN'T.

Sometimes the truth hurts, and sadly some people aren't willing to accept it despite all the evidence. As much as I love the fluff and rambunctious nature of grots I have to accept that by and large they're inferior to boyz even on back-field objective holding, champagne_socialist has to go through the same realization that his opinions aren't fact.

Martel732 wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
No evidence but 50+ games and better problem solving skills.............

I have a feeling champagne_socialist won't listen to a thing anyone says. Here's a tip, go play in a big tournament, come back home 0-7, and tell us that Vanguard are still good and "kill everything you point it at". Maybe if you do that, all of us would actually believe you, because at this point you are very uniformed and suffer from big-fish-in-little-pond syndrome.

Lucarikx

I've whipped the same BA guy like 5 times now and he keeps blaming the dice. I don't know what to do about that. I have a feeling similar thinking is at work now. Or he is just trolling us. Consider us trolled.

We are debating vanguard not blood angels, dont get the debate confused. I can play eldar and ally in blood angels scouts and a captain and vanguard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like I said you have nothing backing you up othat vnguard are rubbish. 185 points and they can take out an expensive tank or a seer council or a devestator squad or tau crisis suits etc etc

Don't change the debate to talk about blood angels as a whole because that is not the debate.

Allying in a Captain almost gave me a heart attack. The part where a Vanguard squad can kill a Seer Council had me on the floor. Thanks for the laugh.

Lucarolx

185pt tank busting squad.

Vindicators are cheaper.
Tri-las predators are cheaper.
Any Leman Russ par an Executioner, stock, is cheaper.
Fire Prisms are cheaper.
Kitted Wave Serpents are cheaper.
Baal Predators are cheaper.
Annihilation Barges are cheaper.
Ork Boomgunz are cheaper.
Inquisitorial Psymeras and Psybacks are cheaper.
As are GK ones.

So you need to find, essentially, a Knight, Land Raider, or Monolith to make your points back on a single assault. Assuming it's not bubble wrapped, and pray you get a good round against the Knight, and there's no interceptor.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
185pt tank busting squad.

Vindicators are cheaper.
Tri-las predators are cheaper.
Any Leman Russ par an Executioner, stock, is cheaper.
Fire Prisms are cheaper.
Kitted Wave Serpents are cheaper.
Baal Predators are cheaper.
Annihilation Barges are cheaper.
Ork Boomgunz are cheaper.
Inquisitorial Psymeras and Psybacks are cheaper.
As are GK ones.

So you need to find, essentially, a Knight, Land Raider, or Monolith to make your points back on a single assault. Assuming it's not bubble wrapped, and pray you get a good round against the Knight, and there's no interceptor.

difference being that all of the above can be shot at before you get to shoot. vanguard remain untouched.

"Like I said you have nothing backing you up othat vnguard are rubbish."

Other than them being rubbish against any good player, no nothing at all.

This is doubly moot in that I'm sure BA vanguard will lose this ability this summer or autumn. The new vanguards are much more reasonably priced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
185pt tank busting squad.

Vindicators are cheaper.
Tri-las predators are cheaper.
Any Leman Russ par an Executioner, stock, is cheaper.
Fire Prisms are cheaper.
Kitted Wave Serpents are cheaper.
Baal Predators are cheaper.
Annihilation Barges are cheaper.
Ork Boomgunz are cheaper.
Inquisitorial Psymeras and Psybacks are cheaper.
As are GK ones.

So you need to find, essentially, a Knight, Land Raider, or Monolith to make your points back on a single assault. Assuming it's not bubble wrapped, and pray you get a good round against the Knight, and there's no interceptor.

difference being that all of the above can be shot at before you get to shoot. vanguard remain untouched.

It's not worth the points, but evidently you play against pinheads, so it doesn't matter what is in your list. So how is your experience relevant?

Martel732 wrote:
"Like I said you have nothing backing you up othat vnguard are rubbish."

Other than them being rubbish against any good player, no nothing at all.

This is doubly moot in that I'm sure BA vanguard will lose this ability this summer or autumn. The new vanguards are much more reasonably priced.

but you cn't prove that they are bad, as ointed out 180 points is cost effective for them taking out a minimum of 1 tank or a devestator squad or a seer council etc etc

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Like I said you have nothing backing you up othat vnguard are rubbish."

Other than them being rubbish against any good player, no nothing at all.

This is doubly moot in that I'm sure BA vanguard will lose this ability this summer or autumn. The new vanguards are much more reasonably priced.

but you cn't prove that they are bad, as ointed out 180 points is cost effective for them taking out a minimum of 1 tank or a devestator squad or a seer council etc etc

You can't beat a seer council with them.

Good players don't use devastators.

So that leaves tanks. The only regular tank in the game that I care that much about is the Wave Serpent. Even still, you are on the losing end of that trade, point wise. I'm in no rush to kill Land Raiders. Maybe Knights. So if you're not playing Eldar or Knights, you likely have no worthy targets.

Martel732 wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Like I said you have nothing backing you up othat vnguard are rubbish."

Other than them being rubbish against any good player, no nothing at all.

This is doubly moot in that I'm sure BA vanguard will lose this ability this summer or autumn. The new vanguards are much more reasonably priced.

but you cn't prove that they are bad, as ointed out 180 points is cost effective for them taking out a minimum of 1 tank or a devestator squad or a seer council etc etc

You can't beat a seer council with them.

Good players don't use devastators.

So that leaves tanks. The only regular tank in the game that I care that much about is the Wave Serpent. Even still, you are on the losing end of that trade, point wise. I'm in no rush to kill Land Raiders. Maybe Knights. So if you're not playing Eldar or Knights, you likely have no worthy targets.

of course I could beat a seer council, swap the meltas so you have 3 power weapons and that is 20 attacks on the charge, 12 with power weapons. if you are seer council hunting add a few extra guys.

can take out crisis suits, riptides, wraithknightsimperial guard command squads, devestator squads etc etc.

you can equip them to handle anything

"of course I could beat a seer council"

At this point, you are just embarrassing yourself. If you had actual play experience against a competent Seer council, you would know this is totally inaccurate.

You can't take any of those things out if your opponent knows what they are doing. Your opponents, as I said, are obviously low quality to let you get away this this stuff.

"you can equip them to handle anything"

But without list tailoring, they are best with meltabombs and nothing else.

Martel732 wrote:
"of course I could beat a seer council"

At this point, you are just embarrassing yourself. If you had actual play experience against a competent Seer council, you would know this is totally inaccurate.

You can't take any of those things out if your opponent knows what they are doing. Your opponents, as I said, are obviously low quality to let you get away this this stuff.

"you can equip them to handle anything"

But without list tailoring, they are best with meltabombs and nothing else.

lets be honest here you are low quality hahah

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"of course I could beat a seer council"

At this point, you are just embarrassing yourself. If you had actual play experience against a competent Seer council, you would know this is totally inaccurate.

You can't take any of those things out if your opponent knows what they are doing. Your opponents, as I said, are obviously low quality to let you get away this this stuff.

"you can equip them to handle anything"

But without list tailoring, they are best with meltabombs and nothing else.

lets be honest here you are low quality hahah

Ad hominem. The refuge of lost arguments.

I've had another BA player throw one of my Baals across the room, he was so frustrated against my list. He was using a lot of the same units you have talked about. This was pre-inquisition, of course.

Martel732 wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"of course I could beat a seer council"

At this point, you are just embarrassing yourself. If you had actual play experience against a competent Seer council, you would know this is totally inaccurate.

You can't take any of those things out if your opponent knows what they are doing. Your opponents, as I said, are obviously low quality to let you get away this this stuff.

"you can equip them to handle anything"

But without list tailoring, they are best with meltabombs and nothing else.

lets be honest here you are low quality hahah

Ad hominem. The refuge of lost arguments.

I've had another BA player throw one of my Baals across the room, he was so frustrated against my list. He was using a lot of the same units you have talked about. This was pre-inquisition, of course.

Not a lost argument at all, any player who says that his units are untouchable is a bad player. Any player who cannot see that a close combat squad who can deep strike and assault the same turn is a good unit is a bad player.

Except for the fact that I have neutered said squad over and over, probably in the hands of players better than you. It's not about squads being untouchable, it's about putting the right ones out of reach.

They do not impact the game often enough or strongly enough to justify their cost.

Martel732 wrote:
Except for the fact that I have neutered said squad over and over, probably in the hands of players better than you. It's not about squads being untouchable, it's about putting the right ones out of reach.

They do not impact the game often enough or strongly enough to justify their cost.

anectodal evidence means nothing because I can just say I have won 20 games using vanguard. I dont care about your experiences (they are probably a lie) so i will not listen to you when you say you have faced this army and won or that army and won etc etc.

Right. I've been playing BA since 1994. But I'm making up all my experience with them.

You can say that, but you would be the one that is probably lying. Of all the BA players on Dakka, I am one of the most open about my poor track record because of the state of the list. Most players understand that you can't take overpriced meqs and take on wound spamming Eldar with them with any reasonable chance of success.

Yet, for some reason, you think that taking EVEN MORE overpriced meqs makes you some kind of tactical genius who can not be questioned. That, and you talked about allying in a BA captain. I think its clear who has more credibility on the issue of anything regarding BA.

Martel732 wrote:
Right. I've been playing BA since 1994. But I'm making up all my experience with them.

You can say that, but you would be the one that is probably lying. Of all the BA players on Dakka, I am one of the most open about my poor track record because of the state of the list. Most players understand that you can't take overpriced meqs and take on wound spamming Eldar with them with any reasonable chance of success.

Yet, for some reason, you think that taking EVEN MORE overpriced meqs makes you some kind of tactical genius who can not be questioned. That, and you talked about allying in a BA captain. I think its clear who has more credibility on the issue of anything regarding BA.

I don't really care about what you think if im being honest. A vanguard squad is only 55 points more than an assault squad with a power weapon and for that extra 50 points all your men have leadership 9 and they all have an extra attack and they all get to assault after deep striking. Worth the extra 50 points.

You seem to be failing to grasp that vanguard cannot be shot at before they get to destroy their target, who cares how much wave serpeant span you have, they cant touch the vanguard and if i get 1st turn then your wave serpeants get 1 turn of shooting before my vanguard come in and destroy either them or a more juicy target.

Anyway you are rather boring with your constant nonsense

So now you are claiming I don't understand the rules for Vanguards?

And you are skewing the numbers. Vanguard are 65 pts more than an assault squad if I don't waste the points on a power weapon that can be challenged out. AND they don't score.

Your power weapons mean nothing to a Seer Council. They're rolling invul saves. And wounding you on 2's. Probably re-rolling. And probably forcing you to re-roll saves. Possibly reducing your armor save to a 4+ or 5+.

Yes, all listed tanks can be shot at. But you were pointing out that a 180-185 pt tank busting squad is cheap and trades favorably. That list disagrees, as a grand majority of your targets are <180pts, so even if you succeed the Vanguard have not earned their points back, and will promptly die next turn for their trouble.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Your power weapons mean nothing to a Seer Council. They're rolling invul saves. And wounding you on 2's. Probably re-rolling. And probably forcing you to re-roll saves. Possibly reducing your armor save to a 4+ or 5+.

Yes, all listed tanks can be shot at. But you were pointing out that a 180-185 pt tank busting squad is cheap and trades favorably. That list disagrees, as a grand majority of your targets are <180pts, so even if you succeed the Vanguard have not earned their points back, and will promptly die next turn for their trouble.

will they die next turn? depends where the tanks are and what other units I have in your aarea by turn 2 which is probably going to be a lot, if i run SM it is drop pods and if i run a henchemn army it is death cult assassins etc etc.

Stop acting as if you can tell the futre by saying what will happen.

But I CHOOSE where my tanks are. So I can make sure that I have units there to mop up your Sternguard after they assault my tank.

You can't put enough bodies on the field as BA to do the kind of threat overload strategy you are trying to convince us of. Especially if you spend your points on Vanguard. I know this doesn't work because I know BA.

Martel732 wrote:
But I CHOOSE where my tanks are. So I can make sure that I have units there to mop up your Sternguard after they assault my tank.

You can't put enough bodies on the field as BA to do the kind of threat overload strategy you are trying to convince us of. Especially if you spend your points on Vanguard. I know this doesn't work because I know BA.

you choose where they are means nothing haha, i have two turns to clear a path hahah drop pods are great

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But I CHOOSE where my tanks are. So I can make sure that I have units there to mop up your Sternguard after they assault my tank.

You can't put enough bodies on the field as BA to do the kind of threat overload strategy you are trying to convince us of. Especially if you spend your points on Vanguard. I know this doesn't work because I know BA.

you choose where they are means nothing haha, i have two turns to clear a path hahah drop pods are great

You're not clearing a path with so many of your units in reserve. Drop pods are also easy to monkey around with locking out their drop locations. They also can't land on a unit or in terrain.

Martel732 wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But I CHOOSE where my tanks are. So I can make sure that I have units there to mop up your Sternguard after they assault my tank.

You can't put enough bodies on the field as BA to do the kind of threat overload strategy you are trying to convince us of. Especially if you spend your points on Vanguard. I know this doesn't work because I know BA.

you choose where they are means nothing haha, i have two turns to clear a path hahah drop pods are great

You're not clearing a path with so many of your units in reserve. Drop pods are also easy to monkey around with locking out their drop locations. They also can't land on a unit or in terrain.

set your whole army up in 1 bunch hahah that will win you the game hahah

You can see him gradually devolving more and more into incoherency as he grows in desperation to try and keep up with the pressure! Look at the gradual increase in childish hahas!