BLM vs ranching family

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**Relapse**

Today, I was talking about the situation with my sister who lives down there. It turns out my brother in law knows Bundy and and his family quite well. While they concede he should have gotten off the land, they also say he has been busting his ass and putting in sizable amounts of money for decades to maintain and improve the area not only for his cattle but the wildlife as well.
She also told me that the BLM has moved in big time and has been harrasing people from her neighborhood and taking over land all over the county that people use to get to property they own, essentually cutting them off from it.
One of the prime movers in this appear to be enviornmentalists concerned about the Desert Tortoise. She says that's a joke because developers down there are killing them by the thousands.
The government was going to try to auction his cattle off here in Utah, but the county commisioner down that way told them to piss off because there were no papers on inocculations and he didn't want cattle that may be diseased into the state, infecting our herds.
Bundy should have vacated long ago, but the BLM is way out of control.

**d-usa**

They closed the path they use for their cattle?

Sounds like the cattle owners need to make use of an obscure town law that allow them to drive their cattle through Main Street until the paths are opened again. That will teach them townies!

**Relapse**

d-usa wrote:
They closed the path they use for their cattle?

Sounds like the cattle owners need to make use of an obscure town law that allow them to drive their cattle through Main Street until the paths are opened again. That will teach them townies!

Not just for cattle that I know of, but for any purpose. She says people are getting fairly pissed rather quickly at this point at the government and the BLM.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
This editorial from the local paper is summing up the feelings of the local residents as I've been told:

http://mvprogress.com/2014/04/02/editorial-left-holding-the-bill-again/

**ScootyPuffJunior**

Ouze wrote:
Anyway the more I read on the OP the more this guy seems like a class-A assclown.

Further proof that one should never trust only one source of news, doubly so if that source is Info Wars.

**dogma**

Relapse wrote:

This editorial from the local paper is summing up the feelings of the local residents as I've been told:

I'm shocked, just shocked, that a rural newspaper is heaping blame on the Federal Government.

Bundy broke Federal law and has had more than a decade to comply with it. He is the one to blame here.

**Relapse**

dogma wrote:
Relapse wrote:

This editorial from the local paper is summing up the feelings of the local residents as I've been told:

I'm shocked, just shocked, that a rural newspaper is heaping blame on the Federal Government.

Bundy broke Federal law and has had more than a decade to comply with it. He is the one to blame here.

I'm just sharing the attitude that the people in that area have about being run all over by the BLM. They still have bad memories of when the parks were closed and their economy was heavily impacted. To the people living there, it feels like round two from Washington just as things were beginning to recover.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

Relapse wrote:
Today, I was talking about the situation with my sister who lives down there. It turns out my brother in law knows Bundy and and his family quite well. While they concede he should have gotten off the land, they also say he has been busting his ass and putting in sizable amounts of money for decades to maintain and improve the area not only for his cattle but the wildlife as well.

Purely anecdotal. The comment section for the Mesquite, NV local newspaper is full of people taking issue with the damage he and his cattle have caused on public land.

She also told me that the BLM has moved in big time and has been harrasing people from her neighborhood and taking over land all over the county that people use to get to property they own, essentually cutting them off from it.

Again, purely anecdotal. There are equally anecdotal stories of Bundy and his followers harassing local businesses for not "supporting" them, including posting names and numbers of businesses that have nothing to do with the BLM and asking supporters to harass them.

One of the prime movers in this appear to be enviornmentalists concerned about the Desert Tortoise. She says that's a joke because developers down there are killing them by the thousands.

Anecdotal again. Conservation is important and as a former resident of Nevada, I'm all for protecting the tortoise. One of the biggest threats to the tortoise was the Ivanpah Solar power station, but they at least attempted to relocate as many tortoises as they could and they even scaled to project size down to limit the impact to the animal. What exactly has Bundy done to improve the land and the wildlife?

The government was going to try to auction his cattle off here in Utah, but the county commisioner down that way told them to piss off because there were no papers on inocculations and he didn't want cattle that may be diseased into the state, infecting our herds.

Exactly, because Bundy had broken to law again by not tagging his cattle.

Bundy should have vacated long ago, but the BLM is way out of control.

Bundy had threatened a "range war" against the BLM and their contractors and they operated well within with rights to protect government land, employees, and contractors.

**Relapse**

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Today, I was talking about the situation with my sister who lives down there. It turns out my brother in law knows Bundy and and his family quite well. While they concede he should have gotten off the land, they also say he has been busting his ass and putting in sizable amounts of money for decades to maintain and improve the area not only for his cattle but the wildlife as well.
Purely anecdotal. The comment section for the Mesquite, NV local newspaper is full of people taking issue with the damage he and his cattle have caused on public land.

She also told me that the BLM has moved in big time and has been harrasing people from her neighborhood and taking over land all over the county that people use to get to property they own, essentually cutting them off from it.
Again, purely anecdotal. There are equally anecdotal stories of Bundy and his followers harassing local businesses for not "supporting" them, including posting names and numbers of businesses that have nothing to do with the BLM and asking supporters to harass them.

One of the prime movers in this appear to be enviornmentalists concerned about the Desert Tortoise. She says that's a joke because developers down there are killing them by the thousands.
Anecdotal again. Conservation is important and as a former resident of Nevada, I'm all for protecting the tortoise. One of the biggest threats to the tortoise was the Ivanpah Solar power station, but they at least attempted to relocate as many tortoises as they could and they even scaled to project size down to limit the impact to the animal. What exactly has Bundy done to improve the land and the wildlife?

The government was going to try to auction his cattle off here in Utah, but the county commisioner down that way told them to piss off because there were no papers on inocculations and he didn't want cattle that may be diseased into the state, infecting our herds.
Exactly, because Bundy had broken to law again by not tagging his cattle.

Bundy should have vacated long ago, but the BLM is way out of control.
Bundy had threatened a "range war" against the BLM and their contractors and they operated well within with rights to protect government land, employees, and contractors.

So the government trying to foist possibly diseased cattle at auction, risking infecting other herds, is acceptable to you?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as the enviornmental aspect goes, give me a break. People there get fined if they kick up dust farming, building, or what have you, forcing them to waste the limited water resources dampening the ground down.
All that being said, I agree it was far past time for Bundy to have gotten his cattle out of there.
The BLM is not making friends though, with it's methods.

**dogma**

Relapse wrote:

I'm just sharing the attitude that the people in that area have about being run all over by the BLM. They still have bad memories of when the parks were closed and their economy was heavily impacted. To the people living there, it feels like round two from Washington just as things were beginning to recover.

Then they should blame the guy that brought this whole mess down on them, not Washington.

**Relapse**

dogma wrote:
Relapse wrote:

I'm just sharing the attitude that the people in that area have about being run all over by the BLM. They still have bad memories of when the parks were closed and their economy was heavily impacted. To the people living there, it feels like round two from Washington just as things were beginning to recover.

Then they should blame the guy that brought this whole mess down on them, not Washington.

They are taking issue with a lot of things Washington related, like the timing of all the land closures during another one of the peak tourist times like happened last year.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
In their mind, this could easily have been put off for another couple of months.

**d-usa**

Well, if he wouldn't have been breaking the law then nobody else would have to worry about enforcement of the law at an time that doesn't really work for them all that well...

**ScootyPuffJunior**

Relapse wrote:
So the government trying to foist possibly diseased cattle at auction, risking infecting other herds, is acceptable to you?

They aren't my cattle and I don't care what they do with them. Shoot them for all I care, just don't blame the government for attempting to sell cattle in order to recoup some of the cost to the taxpayers who already share the burden some stubborn douchbag left on them. On top of not breaking the law by not having them tagged, they were illegally grazing on government land that their owner refused to move even though he had been ordered numerous times to do so. If by the long shot they went on to infect other herds, that blame lies solely on the man who refused to follow the law... but everyone knows it's easier to blame the federal government instead.

As far as the enviornmental aspect goes, give me a break. People there get fined if they kick up dust farming, building, or what have you, forcing them to waste the limited water resources dampening the ground down.

Okay, and? The air pollution laws are a little more complicated than that but the law is the law, whether you like it or not. My family got fined for misuse of water when we lived in Clark County and you know what we did? Instead of issuing threats and making a rallying cry to go to war with Deputy Drip, we paid the fine and got on with our lives.

All that being said, I agree it was far past time for Bundy to have gotten his cattle out of there.

You're right, why should the BLM wait even more time to remove the cattle? To make you feel warm and fuzzy?

The BLM is not making friends though, with it's methods.

They are the Bureau of Land Management, not the Bureau of Land Management and Friend Making. They have seemed to practiced a lot of patience with Bundy over the years and are finally tired of dealing with him. I feel that their methods are perfectly within reason given the threats he has made against government employees and contractors.

**dogma**

Relapse wrote:

In their mind, this could easily have been put off for another couple of months.

From the editorial you posted:

Admittedly, this arrangement can’t last forever. And it won’t. Bundy is getting older and so are his cows. The economy of the thing as a long-term business proposition can’t possibly pencil out that well. Chances are the problem would solve itself within a decade or so.

At least one (I assume) local would argue that this could have been "...put off another couple of months." for a decade or more. And, Bundy being 67, the "or more" part has real importance; as does the continued impact of his cows on the environment which, according to you and the editorials you have posted, locals look to as a primary source of economic activity.

Not that this really matters, as the sentiment you're expressing vicariously (and the editorial clearly outlines) isn't really about the economy of the region, but a general dislike of the Federal Government.

**sebster**

Ouze wrote:
No, I'm not sure.

Sorry, tangent.

Never apologise for any reference to Idiocracy

Anyway, so you think adverse possession should remain a thing? Man, I dunno. I can see the argument for a tightly-defined eminent domain, but but I have a hard time seeing the value in an obscure way of legally stealing.

Thing is, I own a house that some lady bought off a developer who was transforming market gardens in to residential property. I have no clue if the land used by those market gardens was originally properly purchased - it's all suburbia now but when those gardens started up in the post war period the land was empty. For all I know the original market gardener could have encroached past his original allotment and on to other land, and so without adverse possession then legally I might have no claim to the house I bought in good faith.

At some point there needs to be same way of wiping the slate clean, and saying 'everyone has been acting like that is yours for long enough that it is yours - we're not going to let people go scrolling through property documents from generations ago to find a technicality that costs you your home'.

Now, obviously that doesn't mean the nonsense that goes on with squatters claiming adverse possession is okay. The law maybe needs to be tightened, and the processes that identify false claims need to be more rapid, with penalties for claims made in bad faith, but as a concept I think adverse possession has a place.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
The problem, like the problem with eminent domain, is when someone tries to exploit it to take property they just feel like owning. It should be a rare solution to messy disputes, not a way to claim new property just because you haven't been punished sufficiently for trespassing on it. And you'll notice that, like cases of eminent domain abuse, the Boulder adverse possession case involved someone with a lot of influence in the local government taking the property. That seems like the problem has more to do with corruption and making sure "important" people get what they need than the law itself.

Yeah, this is a very good point - in cases where the law produced a poor result corruption was the bigger issue. Though it is worth recognising that adverse possession and eminent domain are both more susceptible to corrupt rulings that other laws.

That doesn't mean they need to be abandoned as legal principles, but as Ouze says they need to be really limited and tightly defined.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:
They closed the path they use for their cattle?

Sounds like the cattle owners need to make use of an obscure town law that allow them to drive their cattle through Main Street until the paths are opened again. That will teach them townies!

I feel like this story needs to end with a breakdancing contest.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:
So the government trying to foist possibly diseased cattle at auction, risking infecting other herds, is acceptable to you?

I love that kind of language - 'foist'.

Anyhow, a part of government tried to recover costs of dealing with an idiot by selling property of his that they seized. Another part of government said they couldn't sell that asset because it didn't meet the standards needed for sale. Not really much of a story there.

The BLM is not making friends though, with it's methods.

Note the BLM has spent 15 years trying to resolve this peacefully. If anything they've been far too lenient.

And now, because Bundy is an idiot who believes that there is some kind of need to keep stubbornly resisting even after the courts have thrown all your claims out... the government ends up getting heavy handed. As I said earlier, one of the interesting paradoxes of the US is that anti-government rhetoric produces bloody minded resistance, that necessitates government crackdown, which ends up delivering exactly the heavy handed militant government the anti-government forces were worried about in the first place.

**Ouze**

Well, gaks getting real now.

source

Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher in clash with federal rangers
By BEN BOTKIN and HENRY BREAN LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL April 9, 2014 - 6:28pm

BUNKERVILLE — From near and wide, armed men are trickling toward Cliven Bundy’s ranch, where the rancher’s fight with the federal government has become a rallying cry for militia groups across the United States.

On Wednesday, that dispute teetered at the edge of deadly conflict, when Cliven Bundy’s family members and supporters scuffled with rangers from the Bureau of Land Management sent to protect the federal roundup of Bundy’s cattle on public land.

One of Bundy’s seven sons was shot with a stun gun, and Bundy’s sister was knocked to the ground; but no one was seriously hurt, and no arrests were made.

By late Wednesday, three militia members — two from Montana and one from Utah — had arrived at the ranch 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas. Other militia groups have inundated the Bundy household with calls and pledges to muster at the site. Their stated goal: to protect the Bundys from tyranny.

They say they are prepared for armed confrontation, but they insist they will not be the instigators if bloodshed happens.

Ryan Payne and Jim Lardy, members of the West Mountain Rangers, made the 12-hour drive from western Montana on Tuesday night. Payne is also a coordinator with Operation Mutual Aid, a national association that describes itself as a coalition of state militias.

“They all tell me they are in the process of mobilizing as we speak,” Payne said.

He didn’t put a specific estimate on how many militia members may come, but he said the groups expected are from places like New Hampshire, Texas and Florida and could number in the hundreds.

“We need to be the barrier between the oppressed and the tyrants,” he said. “Expect to see a band of soldiers.”

Payne, 30, and Lardy, 49, both wore holstered handguns as they spoke, but they downplayed the display of firepower. They wear their weapons daily.

They say the goals are for no one to be harmed, the Bundy family to be protected, and the Bundy property restored.

For now, the militia members will camp on the Bundy ranch. They say the issue isn’t about cattle or grazing rights; it’s about constitutional rights.

“We’re not anti-government,” said Lardy, who cuts firewood for a living. “We’re anti-corrupt government.”

Stephen Dean, 45, an artist from Utah, said he made the trip in hopes of heading off another Ruby Ridge or Waco, referring to deadly confrontations involving federal agents in Idaho in 1992 and in Texas in 1993.

A member of the People’s United Mobile Armed Services, Dean said he also carries weapons more powerful than his firearms: a camera and the Internet. Those tools will document the plight of the Bundy ranch and bring the issue to light, he said. “I’m here to see it does happen differently.”

Serious bloodshed was narrowly avoided earlier in the day, when a BLM ranger shot Ammon Bundy, a son of Cliven Bundy, with a stun gun during a heated confrontation a few miles from the ranch house.

A YouTube video shows protesters and law enforcement officers yelling and threatening each other as trucks involved in the roundup attempt to drive through. The officers have stun guns drawn, and one is trying to push the crowd back with a barking dog on a leash.

Cheryl Teerlink, said Ammon Bundy was hit by a stun gun in his arm, chest and neck, but he shook off the first attempt to incapacitate him. “I pulled the tasers out of him,” Teerlink said.

Shortly before that, Cliven Bundy’s sister, Margaret Houston, was thrown to the ground by a BLM officer, Teerlink said.

The incident unfolded near the intersection of Gold Butte Road and state Route 170, where protesters gathered after they saw BLM vehicles coming down from the range.

The Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service released a statement confirming that one protester had been stunned. The agencies said the incident started when “a BLM truck driven by a non-law enforcement civilian employee assisting with gather operations was struck by a protester on an ATV, and the truck’s exit from the area was blocked by a group of individuals who gathered around the vehicle.”

According to the statement, peaceful protests have “crossed into illegal activity” in recent days, with people “blocking vehicles associated with the gather, impeding cattle movement, and making direct and overt threats to government employees.”

“These isolated actions that have jeopardized the safety of individuals have been responded to with appropriate law enforcement actions,” it said.

Federal law enforcement officers, also heavily armed, are providing tight security to contract cowboys from Utah who were hired by the government for almost $1 million to round up as many as 900 cattle that Bundy has left to roam on federal land despite not paying grazing fees for the past 20 years.

Two federal court orders issued within the past year called for the rancher’s livestock to be impounded from a vast swath of mountains and desert. That roundup began Saturday on almost 600,000 acres closed to the public during the operation.

As of Wednesday, 352 animals had been rounded up.

Gov. Brian Sandoval on Tuesday slammed the BLM for creating an “atmosphere of intimidation” and called on the agency to dismantle two “First Amendment areas” it set up for demonstrators well away from any roundup activity.

The former federal judge said he told the agency “that such conduct is offensive to me and countless others.”

“No cow justifies the atmosphere of intimidation which currently exists nor the limitation of constitutional rights that are sacred to all Nevadans,” the Republican governor said.

On Wednesday morning, before news broke of the scuffle between protesters and the BLM, Sen. Dean Heller, R-Nev., sent a statement expressing “great disappointment with the way that this situation is being handled.”

Heller said he spoke to newly confirmed BLM director Neil Kornze and “told him very clearly that law-abiding Nevadans must not be penalized by an over-reaching BLM.”

“After hearing from local officials and residents, and receiving feedback from the Nevada Cattlemen’s Association in a meeting this morning, I remain extremely concerned about the size of this closure and disruptions with access to roads, water and electrical infrastructure,” Heller said. “I will continue to closely monitor this situation, and urge the BLM to make the necessary changes in order to preserve Nevadans’ constitutional rights.”

Kornze is a Nevada native who spent eight years as a senior policy adviser for Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid before joining the BLM.

Reached for comment before Wednesday’s altercation between rangers and demonstrators, spokeswoman Kristen Orthman said: “Senator Reid hopes the trespassing cattle are rounded up safely so the issue can be resolved.”

**d-usa**

But there was no reason for the Feds to come in armed and ready...

**Breotan**

Not feeling overly sympathetic for this guy. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

**Ahtman**

I'm sure those militia men coming to their aid are well informed on the issues involved and are well balanced individuals with a reasonable outlook.

**Ouze**

d-usa wrote:
But there was no reason for the Feds to come in armed and ready...

This guy made a lot of noise about that but didn't mention that it only got that way after he made a lot of loose, vague threats. It really doesn't seem like it had to be this way.

So far as what I saw on the video, imo the son who was tased should have been arrested, but I accept that police can exercise some discretion.

Much props to Relapse for giving us the early track into what will surely be an interesting news story over the next few weeks.

**Soladrin**

Ouze wrote:
d-usa wrote:
But there was no reason for the Feds to come in armed and ready...

This guy made a lot of noise about that but didn't mention that it only got that way after he made a lot of loose, vague threats. It really doesn't seem like it had to be this way.

So far as what I saw on the video, imo the son who was tased should have been arrested, but I accept that police can exercise some discretion.

Much props to Relapse for giving us the early track into what will surely be an interesting news story over the next few weeks.

Interesting news story or body count?

**Frazzled**

So they've called out "the militia?" I'm sure the feds are terrified of the three guys now opposing them (with two teeth between them).

Lets think how militias worked out against the US government so far:

*Farmer's rebellion: nope.
*ACW: definite nope.
Smart money's on the federales. Just remember they don't need no steenking badges.

**Kilkrazy**

If I were the BLM I would wait a couple of weeks until the militia have to go home.

**Ouze**

Kilkrazy wrote:
If I were the BLM I would wait a couple of weeks until the militia have to go home.

I don't think you understand. You're thinking that, well, this has been an ongoing issue since 1999, what's a few more weeks, right?

The problem is: these people are not respecting their authoritah.

Now a message has to be sent. You might get away with not paying land use fees, but once you start getting into contempt of cop, there will be blood.

**Frazzled**

Ouze wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
If I were the BLM I would wait a couple of weeks until the militia have to go home.

I don't think you understand. You're thinking that, well, this has been an ongoing issue since 1999, what's a few more weeks, right?

The problem is: these people are not respecting their authoritah.

Now a message has to be sent. You might get away with not paying land use fees, but once you start getting into contempt of cop, there will be blood.

Killkrazy it sounds like he's joking, but he's not. This is indeed how it will go down.

**Dreadclaw69**

I wonder if the BLM are asking the ATF for advice?

**hotsauceman1**

Frazzled wrote:
Ouze wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
If I were the BLM I would wait a couple of weeks until the militia have to go home.

I don't think you understand. You're thinking that, well, this has been an ongoing issue since 1999, what's a few more weeks, right?

The problem is: these people are not respecting their authoritah.

Now a message has to be sent. You might get away with not paying land use fees, but once you start getting into contempt of cop, there will be blood.

Killkrazy it sounds like he's joking, but he's not. This is indeed how it will go down.

I doupt even a week, they need to see the new episodes of Duck Dynasty

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Y'know what I hope the BLM does? Eat some of the cows, and sell the others to industrial farms.

**Frazzled**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I wonder if the BLM are asking the ATF for advice?

If the BLM sells a bunch of rifles to cartels and then says we need more gun laws to protect against rifles beeing sold to cartels...

**Kilkrazy**

Perhaps they want to rename the agency the Bureau of Land Aggression Management.

**Frazzled**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Perhaps they want to rename the agency the Bureau of Land Aggression Management.

BLAM!

**nkelsch**

If a 'militia' stands up, they deserve to get whatever enters into and splatters out the back of their heads. This is not a just cause worth taking up arms for... if they going to take up arms, then they deserve to be shot dead.

Sounds like the rancher is the tyrant who is threatening the local town folk to 'support him' or risk the consequences. Faster he is removed from the land and society it sounds, the better off everyone will be.

If they were black, and in the city on public park land taking up arms while illegally squatting the land and breaking other laws, they would all be dead and there would barley be a page 12 story in the local paper about it, let alone national news.