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 Wyrmalla wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Why, what would be wrong with it?

Just to clarify Black Hawk Down's regarded as pretty racist in Somali. It characterises all Somalis as blood thirsty gunmen (and really the whole thing's just a ninja propaganda film for the US military). It was so bad that when the film aired in the region the locals cheered whenever the Americans died just because it was so offensive.

Huh, that's an interesting viewpoint I hadn't heard before. The film's very overt in the "this was a giant waste" theme (showing the Battle of Mogadishu as a pyrrhic victory) - it was altered heavily from the actual events because a highly trained military versus mobs of militia does not an exciting film make.

Don't know if they're going to do vehicles but here are a couple of options:








We need more choice for modern vehicles!! I want a US-style ambulance. NOW

 judgedoug wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Why, what would be wrong with it?

Just to clarify Black Hawk Down's regarded as pretty racist in Somali. It characterises all Somalis as blood thirsty gunmen (and really the whole thing's just a ninja propaganda film for the US military). It was so bad that when the film aired in the region the locals cheered whenever the Americans died just because it was so offensive.

Huh, that's an interesting viewpoint I hadn't heard before. The film's very overt in the "this was a giant waste" theme (showing the Battle of Mogadishu as a pyrrhic victory) - it was altered heavily from the actual events because a highly trained military versus mobs of militia does not an exciting film make.

Not sure how it is 'racist'. Not like Aidid had a lot of white guys fighting for him that somehow the film didn't represent. Once word went out they had rangers on the ground, the Hibr Gidr mobilized the whole are very quickly and efficiently, basically running to the sound of the gunfire and setting up road blocks along the routes they knew the rangers would have exfil through or get reinforcements from. The downed MH-60s attracted a lot of folks, not many with good intentions. Khat hops folks up kind of like meth, and a lot of the clan soldiers were using khat.

Bowden who authored the book (which started as a series in a Philly newspaper) interviewed survivors and leaders from the Somalis as well as the US. The movie does take a few liberties from reality but is actually remarkably accurate as war movies go.

@bubber

I find that if you want modern vehicles you have to buy kid's toys most of the time. Some companies make diecasts too. As a whole though people seem to rather want to play games set during WWII. Perhaps people want to detach themselves from reality with their wargaming, so they play games in fantasy worlds or the past. As a result modern miniatures, especially vehicles are niche, and unfortunately commonly more expensive than WWII ones. We have a billion versions of Shermans available in every scale, but how many Namers or Sho't (ok you could just use a Centurion for that) are there out there? Hmph, I wanna make a modern IDF force. =(

@CptJake

K.

Not all Somalis are black, I don't even know if they're the majority. There's plenty of people of Arab descent living there. Every Somali in the movie is played by a black actor (but of course they're living in the great country of Africa, and everyone's black there, so that's completely accurate to a film goer).

The Somalis are gunned down in waves by the heroic Americans. There's next to no humanising for them. I mean its as the people of Somalia are just one big band of gun wielding mooks (somehow in a populated area every other guy has an AK and a hatred for America). So whilst the Somalis are dying in their hundreds (or thousands actually), each American who dies is supposed to evoke sympathy from the viewer. Hmn, need to find a film from the perspective of one of the guys who's house was blown up by all that air support.

The Americans were a lot more ruthless in real life than they're depicted in the film. The advisors that Delta Force were told to capture weren't driving about in a large convoy, but a single vehicle. The Americans didn't fire a single warning shot, but rather riddled the whole thing with bullets (at least fifty), injuring those inside (who youknow they were supposed to be seizing...).

Oh, and the movie removed any reference to the Malaysian Peacekeepers, and seemed to imply that the Americans did everything. The Pakistanis too are shown as not wanting to help the Americans, but that's also complete bull. The UN wasn't happy with the Americans over the whole situation in any case. The Americans went into the situation without permission then screwed it up. After the Malaysians saved their asses the Americans demanded that they hand over their vehicles because there wasn't enough room in them to carry all their men in them (presumably with the intention of leaving the original crew in the fire zone instead).

The whole movie's just another patriotic recruitment piece. Oh it may not be an entirely positive portrayal of war, but I suppose that allows it work under the radar as an advertisement for the military. I wonder how much cash the studio was given by the Pentagon,..?

Actually, a whole lot less support than one might think. If it wasn't for the German army they wouldn't even have Blackhawks in the movie. But maybe you should keep this thread for news regarding the minis and keep that sort of discussion reserved for OT?

 Wyrmalla wrote:
@bubber

I find that if you want modern vehicles you have to buy kid's toys most of the time. Some companies make diecasts too. As a whole though people seem to rather want to play games set during WWII. Perhaps people want to detach themselves from reality with their wargaming, so they play games in fantasy worlds or the past. As a result modern miniatures, especially vehicles are niche, and unfortunately commonly more expensive than WWII ones. We have a billion versions of Shermans available in every scale, but how many Namers or Sho't (ok you could just use a Centurion for that) are there out there? Hmph, I wanna make a modern IDF force. =(

@CptJake

K.

Not all Somalis are black, I don't even know if they're the majority. There's plenty of people of Arab descent living there. Every Somali in the movie is played by a black actor (but of course they're living in the great country of Africa, and everyone's black there, so that's completely accurate to a film goer).

The Somalis are gunned down in waves by the heroic Americans. There's next to no humanising for them. I mean its as the people of Somalia are just one big band of gun wielding mooks (somehow in a populated area every other guy has an AK and a hatred for America). So whilst the Somalis are dying in their hundreds (or thousands actually), each American who dies is supposed to evoke sympathy from the viewer. Hmn, need to find a film from the perspective of one of the guys who's house was blown up by all that air support.

The Americans were a lot more ruthless in real life than they're depicted in the film. The advisors that Delta Force were told to capture weren't driving about in a large convoy, but a single vehicle. The Americans didn't fire a single warning shot, but rather riddled the whole thing with bullets (at least fifty), injuring those inside (who youknow they were supposed to be seizing...).

Oh, and the movie removed any reference to the Malaysian Peacekeepers, and seemed to imply that the Americans did everything. The Pakistanis too are shown as not wanting to help the Americans, but that's also complete bull. The UN wasn't happy with the Americans over the whole situation in any case. The Americans went into the situation without permission then screwed it up. After the Malaysians saved their asses the Americans demanded that they hand over their vehicles because there wasn't enough room in them to carry all their men in them (presumably with the intention of leaving the original crew in the fire zone instead).

The whole movie's just another patriotic recruitment piece. Oh it may not be an entirely positive portrayal of war, but I suppose that allows it work under the radar as an advertisement for the military. I wonder how much cash the studio was given by the Pentagon,..?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. In reality, when 100s to thousands of folks, many armed, many unarmed covering folks who are armed, come at a small group of armed folks, in the channelizing terrain of a city, it actually does look like bands of ' gun wielding mooks'. The clan opened up stores of arms and was actively arming folks and sending them into the battle. And again, a bunch of khat hopped up folks using mobs as cover to get closer to the rangers is gonna look pretty similar to what the movie showed. The Hibr Gidr clan is a black clan, whether you like that fact or not. Here is Aidid:



Here are some of his troopers:



Some of the local kids on what is left of an MH60:


Marines going through a part of town near where events of the Day of the Rangers takes place:



A NSFW pic of the locals with a dead ranger:



Frankly, he movie doesn't attempt to show all of Somalia in its wondrous diversity, but instead focuses on a short period of time in a specific location...



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 BrookM wrote:
Actually, a whole lot less support than one might think. If it wasn't for the German army they wouldn't even have Blackhawks in the movie. But maybe you should keep this thread for news regarding the minis and keep that sort of discussion reserved for OT?

Actually, they had little birds and MH60s from the US Army, had rangers and Delta advisors and so on... Guys from the 160th did some of the flying and rangers did some of the 'stunts' like the fast roping.

When Ridley Scott went to Morocco to film Blackhawk Down, the U.S. Army was so gung-ho to immortalize this bit of military derring-do history onto celluloid forever, that they not only supplied all the weapons and vehicles for the film, but they actually provided a real life Ranger regiment to train and advise the filmmakers for their film about an embattled Ranger regiment in Mogadishu, Somalia.

http://warmovies.about.com/od/Political/fl/Which-Films-Does-the-Pentagon-Financially-Support.htm

 BrookM wrote:
Actually, a whole lot less support than one might think. If it wasn't for the German army they wouldn't even have Blackhawks in the movie. But maybe you should keep this thread for news regarding the minis and keep that sort of discussion reserved for OT?

No this is my thread! *throws items about like a child.

Heh, I haven't in seen that film in years, I just dislike war films that treat the enemy as meat bags. What, I'm the only one who sits there and plays a military game and thinks, "huh, I wonder if these faceless mooks would have gone home after this to their families if it weren't for me with my enormous bazooka and witty commentary"? *Cue Austin Powers scene.

If you want a blatant pro-war movie, watch the Green Berets with John Wayne. It was made with full cooperation of the US Army as a war trying to glorify the Vietnam war.

It didn't work as well as people had hoped. Though this did have to do with John Wayne wanting to do this and feeling guilty for not being allowed to fight in WWII with his buddies.

I'm more a Sean Connery fan than a John Wayne one, unfortunately the latter's only ever been in one war film to my knowledge (set during the para landings in the great nation of Holland ).

He was an extra with lines during the Longest Day, wise-cracking and stuffing cotton in his ears when Bill started playing.

Even without any spoken lines that guy who still fail at pulling off any kind of accent.

...Perhaps when a thread about African bush wars and PMCs starts discussing Sean Connery it may have gone a tad too off topic. Reign it in. =P

Back to the topic.

Do they have rules for this to look at yet?

My group is interested, but it all depends on the rules.

I'm interested in seeing what they come out with for rules too.

No the rules aren't out at the moment. I think that every backer will receive a free .pdf document of them when the Kickstarter begins. Whether Spectre goes the Across the Dead Earth route and release a cut down version of the rules before the end of the Kickstarter to the public though hasn't been announced to my knowledge.

...But there's always Skirmish Sangin till then.


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Another painted Militiamen's been shown. Atypical shooting pose as per usual.

Black Hawk Down the movie was toned way down from the book by the way.

I don't see it as racist at all. It's what happened.

We don't decry WW2 movies as racist against Germans.

Africa, where there's an unlimited supply of RPG-7s...

never been a fan of anything modern or near future, but i like the way everything looks. Can't wait for the kick starter.

I'm in FTW!

Some contractors and a SAS-team will be awesome!

Damn, I keep forgetting update this.

Only three days till the Kickstarter launches.

Mini previews
African Warlord


Witch Doctor - interesting model


Plus the standard promitional material.

For their sake, I hope they release the rules.

The figures are nice, but like any real-world conflict, there's always figures to find, or people to make them.

Rules are what set you apart.

And another set of the African Paramilitary. Huh, didn't think that AKSUs were common guns, then again all those tank crews modernising's presumably stuck a load on the market.

A pair of Delta Force Operators (there's another two on their Facebook page similar to the second). The Kickstarter launches tomorrow for those interested. =)

Uh, and to quote a user on another forum Delta Force, "Shooting to **** the poor people of the world!". Ok in this context...

Spectre Miniature's now has a page on Kickstarter for their project. Their initial goal is £6000 (with £3331 of that reached already), with stretch goals already planned. As this whole Kickstarter's based around funding the production of the miniatures, rather designing them, there's already a large range of models post on their page. As far as stretch goals are, they're like the initial run. The models are already there, its just finding the money to cast them. Even if those goals aren't reached I'm assuming that the models will be made available eventually, the Kickstarter would just hasten that. ...Unfortunately the militia in dresses/wigs and some PMCs are set at the largest (£12000) stretch level, so it may be a while before those will be out for retail (though hopefully not, as they're some of the more characterful models).

Oh, and they've mentioned that they hope to have a beta version of their rules available soon as part of the campaign for those interested. There's also plans for vehicles, terrain and to bring other nation's forces into the Africa theatre before expanding outwards.

Here're the models available if the Kickstarter makes its initial goal. The lowest backing level(£10) nets you any one of the sets of four models and a digital copy of the rules.



Aside from that here's a scale comparison made available by a lovely fellow on another forum. Fenris, Spectre, Copplesone Castings, EM4, Warm Acre, Hasslefree

I'm interested in backing this, but I'm just afraid that the figures won't really match up very well with everything else I've got. The entry price does seem very fair though. I may wind up backing it later on.

I'm not going to throw any rocks at anyone who backs, but I think this one is a little too close to the lines of good taste for me to feel comfortable, myself. To be clear: that's a matter of personal preference, and I'm not judging anyone who buys in. (At least, not based on that.)

Interesting stuff from Spectre Miniatures. Never heard of them before, but I'll definitely have to keep my eye on them. Hopefully their next project will be something I can feel a little more comfortable backing.

It's really the PMCs and the CIA types I'm interested in. I can never have too many black-ops mercenary types. I wish I'd been able to attend Salute so I could've gotten that operator.

I don't see a good taste difference in this compared to many (or any) historical rulesets really. Then again, I'm a 1:6 military modeller as well, and that community is full of veterans and those serving who don't take any offence at depictions of modern warfare.

On the other hand, at 2 quid a figure even in the better bundles, they're on the expensive side for historicals of this type. Especially for being a KS.

Just an update for those that didn't know, the kick starter is up to 11k so they hit 5 of their stretch goals and are closing in on the last of the initial stretch goals before more are revealed.

The rules as well as other surprises are in store for next week come and check it out!

As far as the minis being some what expensive, in my mind at least it makes sense. If you don't require a lot of minis to play with it is about the same cost as most "skirmish" games and it will come with a free rulebook so it equals out.

With the £12,000 just being met, and twenty days still to go, Spectre Miniatures are now planning further stretch goals. These will include them designing more models and as a bonus, they'll be adding extra new free models to certain pledge levels.

Besides that, they've also been playtesting the rules. Currently the .pdfs are going through some formatting, but I'd take that as an indication that they should be finished soon.

I'd note that personally I'm waiting out till the end of this month to actually pledge. I'd rather wait and see what models are on offer before deciding my pledge level. I don't know if that's what others are doing, but due to how they've structured their campaign, it just seems like the way to go if I want the most choice of models.

cerealkiller195 wrote:
Just an update for those that didn't know, the kick starter is up to 11k so they hit 5 of their stretch goals and are closing in on the last of the initial stretch goals before more are revealed.
The rules as well as other surprises are in store for next week come and check it out!
As far as the minis being some what expensive, in my mind at least it makes sense. If you don't require a lot of minis to play with it is about the same cost as most "skirmish" games and it will come with a free rulebook so it equals out.

Not really. You're bringing 40k/Warmachine price reasoning into a historical campaign, and that's really not how it's usually done.


The OP might be improved with a link to the actual KS. It just goes to their webpage.