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GeneralCael wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

GeneralCael wrote:
By that logic, Preferred Enemy [ORK] would also grant you rerolls against any other opponent, because it DOES grant you rerolls sometimes (when you shoot at Orks), and you can also reroll your blasts with Hatred, because that rule also allows you a reroll sometimes...

I have no problems with this.

And that is honestly how you play you Hatred rule? I call BS!

I have not yet encountered this specific combination of rules in game, and if I do I will be sure to discuss it cordially with my opponent.

GeneralCael:
It gets a little more broken when you look at the 'once per game' Rules which could grant a Re-Roll of any dice, or those which single out Re-Rolling any failed To Hit results. The few Rules are one per turn for a very good reason, they often can often be used on anything within the Army which meets the very short conditions within said Rule. Should those conditions never matter then these abilities will allow all Blast Makers in the Army to always re-roll scatter, even after the ability is used on some other Re-Roll as that would just be another condition being ignored.

All Blast Markers...
All the Time...
From one 'once per turn' re-roll Rule.....

VOTLW Chaos Marines just got cooler?

JinxDragon wrote:
GeneralCael:
It gets a little more broken when you look at the 'once per game' Rules which could grant a Re-Roll of any dice, or those which single out Re-Rolling any failed To Hit results. The few Rules are one per turn for a very good reason, they often can often be used on anything within the Army which meets the very short conditions within said Rule. Should those conditions never matter then these abilities will allow all Blast Makers in the Army to always re-roll scatter, even after the ability is used on some other Re-Roll as that would just be another condition being ignored.

All Blast Markers...
All the Time...
From one 'once per turn' re-roll Rule.....

The limited use re-rolls are a bit tricky but the final solution is right in the rule. It comes down to the 'ability to re-roll its rolls to-hit and chooses to do so' part. This is giving you the choice to re-roll To-Hit without ever having made a roll To-Hit! the only real solution is replacement of re-roll To-hit with re-roll of scatter but to do so you must still use up the re-roll To-Hit.

GeneralCael wrote:By that logic, Preferred Enemy [ORK] would also grant you rerolls against any other opponent, because it DOES grant you rerolls sometimes (when you shoot at Orks), and you can also reroll your blasts with Hatred, because that rule also allows you a reroll sometimes...

If I'd have to go absolute anal about it, I would go about it the same way the "Gets Hot"-rule does it; by rolling a seperate dice, and allowing a reroll on a 1.

You may not choose to reroll your to-hit rolls against non-Ork units with PE: Orks or during shooting with Hatred.

"If a model has the abiliry to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

JinxDragon wrote:GeneralCael:
It gets a little more broken when you look at the 'once per game' Rules which could grant a Re-Roll of any dice, or those which single out Re-Rolling any failed To Hit results. The few Rules are one per turn for a very good reason, they often can often be used on anything within the Army which meets the very short conditions within said Rule. Should those conditions never matter then these abilities will allow all Blast Makers in the Army to always re-roll scatter, even after the ability is used on some other Re-Roll as that would just be another condition being ignored.

All Blast Markers...
All the Time...
From one 'once per turn' re-roll Rule.....

You must choose to use the reroll to reroll blasts.

PrinceRaven,
However one can not make a choice with many Re-Roll abilities, most of them in fact, as they state you Must Re-Roll Failed results.

This has led some people to read that part of the sentence as permission to ignore this Must, allowing the player to decide if they want the 'scattered' result or to roll again and try for a 'hit' result. This would leave the only requirement to look at as 'does the model have the ability to Re-Roll?' Many people are quite fond of pointing out that it doesn't matter what conditions might be within the Rule, only that it is present, to meet this condition. This creates all the strange situations that I was mentioning, and many more, and seems to be the core of all the questions related to re-rolling Blast Markers and Special Rule X.

Personally I disagree, but seeing as I am on a third side of the debate both the 'main sides' seem quite willing to ignore the questions I raise:
Such as why Twin Link would need it's own Rule to do the same thing if it would already meet the requirement within the Blast Marker rule itself?
Could it be because the Must wouldn't give the player a choice?

I can Appreciate your position, and would agree with it were it not for 1 thing: such a reading leads you to always re-roll the scatter dice, no matter whether it is a hit or arrow symbol(You can re-roll either with the choice reading, and applying a forced choice from the ability to the blast means you absolutely always re-roll, so you either roll the dice then snatch them up to reroll them again, or never reroll them the results of both rolling options being mathematically identical).

Which is why I like the 'restriction & restriction' argument:
It limits the list of Special Rule capable of triggering the Blast Marker's conditions to those which already allow the player a choice in the matter to begin with. This makes the Blast Maker Rule more unified, it isn't giving the player anything they wouldn't already have outside of Blast Markers. It does have a few problems, to be honest the whole Blast Marker re-rolling section is a problem, but with a much smaller list of Special Rules meeting the criteria it eliminates all the unusual situations we encounter.

How many musts are there out there? The only one I can think of off hand, and it has specific rules regarding Blasts(Only on an arrow and choice is allowed)

The real question is how many Re-Roll Special Rules grant a choice to keep the failed results?
The common way we see these Rules written is that the model Must Re-Roll the failed results, they have no freedom of choice in the matter. It was something I looked into when I was first presented the interpretation, because I honestly expected to find out that every Special Rule used the same terminology of 'Must Re-Roll.' Imagine my surprise when I learned this wasn't the case, though I do wish that I kept a better memory of the two or three Rules with 'May Re-Roll' in their instructions. The only one I remember off hand is prescience, and even that is vague and uncertain thanks to memory issues....

However, it also raise the following question again:
Why would Twin-Link dedicate paragraphs to Re-Rolling Blast Markers if it is already covered under Blast Marker Rule itself?

Preferred enemy seems to be a simple: do.

Master crafted is an absolute choice.

I don't feel like digging through all the codices for other re-rolls to hit in shooting.

Even if you "must" re-roll failed to hit rolls/rolls of 1/whatever, blast weapons do not roll to hit, so you cannot be forced to re-roll.

JinxDragon wrote:
Why would Twin-Link dedicate paragraphs to Re-Rolling Blast Markers if it is already covered under Blast Marker Rule itself?

Because redundancy in the rules is one of GW's favourite things.