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Ok I am *certain* this has been done before, but i couldn't find anything by searching at all.
My question is whether preferred enemy allows rerolls on blast weapons... BUT I'm not looking for the debate here, just wondering if anyone (one of our fascist overlords perhaps) could post a link to the old thread? Failing that, a summary of the two sides of the argument?
Sorry if this counts as duplicate thread or whatever (please don't Bane me!!!)
Thanks,
-TG

A: yes, but only against your preferred enemy
B: yes, against everyone. Where even the slightest hint of a possibility of a reroll let's you reroll all game long. Even if you only get the reroll once a game.

No hint of bias there? thanks, the help is appreciated.

It grants a Reroll to hit, so allows a Reroll to scatter with blast. This is only against your preferred enemy , as otherwise you don't have a Reroll to hit available to you.

It's all coming back to me now cheers guys

And the flip side is that you cannot roll a 1 with a blast weapon therefore PE does not trigger.

Here we go again...

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Here we go again...

Maybe not, Fragile is right, there was a 3rd group in that thread.

I apologize, I forgot about group 'C'

Fragile wrote:
And the flip side is that you cannot roll a 1 with a blast weapon therefore PE does not trigger.

Which if course means that no re-roll ability (other than Twin-Linked) allows Blasts to reroll.
It'd be nice if you'd list that out when you state your (unsupported by rules) view.

Ok, lets get the relevant rules put out there real quick:

Preferred Enemy: A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy. This applies to both shooting and close combat attacks.

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls: If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

Therein lies the confusion. As you cannot roll a 1 To Hit with a blast weapon, do you never get to re-roll? Or does the fact that you have "the ability to re-roll [your] rolls To Hit" at all count as enough to qualify for blast re-rolls? The way I see it is that Preferred Enemy only gives you the ability to re-roll your roll To Hit if you rolled a 1 on the To Hit roll, which you never do, so blast weapons cant be re-rolled.

@rigeld2, any ability that allows you to re-roll a miss (as apposed to re-rolling when you get a specific number on a type of roll you don't make) would allow blasts to re-roll. For instance, the Tactical Doctrine of the Ultramarines would only allow tactical squads to re-roll blasts, not everyone.

Fragile wrote:
And the flip side is that you cannot roll a 1 with a blast weapon therefore PE does not trigger.

Good job the actual written rules do not need you to roll a one, just have the ABILITY to Reroll your hits. Which you absolutely, undeniably and incontrovertibly DO with PE.

you lack any rules support for your position, at all, and as per the tenets of this forum mark your posts as such.

 Leonus wrote:
@rigeld2, any ability that allows you to re-roll a miss (as apposed to re-rolling when you get a specific number on a type of roll you don't make) would allow blasts to re-roll. For instance, the Tactical Doctrine of the Ultramarines would only allow tactical squads to re-roll blasts, not everyone.

Not quite, because you never "miss" with a blast.
You simple generate a number of hits between 0 and X (Where X is the maximum number of models can can physically fit under the marker).

0 Hits is not the same a miss. So re-rolling a miss would not trigger either.

There are conditions with all re-roll abilities. Rolls of a 1, rolling a miss etc.. non of these requirements can be made with a blast.
Only Twin-linked has a specific extra rule of re-rolling anything other than a "hit" symbol.

So he's quite right, only Twin-linked can ever work if apply conditions.

Which if course means that no re-roll ability (other than Twin-Linked) allows Blasts to reroll.
It'd be nice if you'd list that out when you state your (unsupported by rules) view.

Good job the actual written rules do not need you to roll a one, just have the ABILITY to Reroll your hits. Which you absolutely, undeniably and incontrovertibly DO with PE.

you lack any rules support for your position, at all, and as per the tenets of this forum mark your posts as such.

Good job for reading fail. Perhaps you should check the OP

Tactical_Genius wrote:
? Failing that, a summary of the two sides of the argument?-TG

Why are you debating when he asked for a summary of the positions. Which were posted in that long thread.

We were pointing that one position has no basis in the rules, while the other does.

So you were debating a point when the OP simply asked us not to and to give a summary of the issues. You would do better off finding a link for him.

Feel free to debate now that my answer has been provided

Don't forget about side 4 in this matter:
This side put forth the possibility that the sentence in question is not a restriction & permission, to do something otherwise outside of the normal, but two restrictions that further limit the number of Rules granting re-rolls to Blast Markers. This 'is it permission or restriction' part of the sentence is the good old 'and chooses to do so' section, which some have put forth is there to grant the player the ability to keep a scattered roll if they decide to do so. However, if read as a restriction, it would be more literal then that and make it so the player can only evoke it should they have the ability to keep the 'missed' results in the first place. When I first looked into that interpenetration I expected to find a grant total of zero Rules which could meet this criteria but I was surprised. There might not be that many, to be true, but the result was more then the zero I was expecting and which Special Rules met this requirement was also quite an eye opener.

This interpretation has three very interesting points that I like to bring up whenever this is raised, just to get people thinking even though I know the set-in-stone posters are never listening:
1) The majority of Rules causing these sort of questions all contain wording that the roll must be re-rolled
b) The list of Rules which grant a choice in the matter are all Rules no one would have a problem with, such as prescience
#) Twin-Link contains permission to re-roll Blast Markers internal to that Rule, something it would only need if it could not evoke the more General Rule... such as if Twin-Links 'must' was preventing it from otherwise triggering

I think grendel083 has it.

A 2d6 scatter roll is not a To Hit roll, but a Scatter (pg. 6) so rolls of 1 don't count as a 1 to hit for Preferred Enemy. Only a Hit! counts as a hit. There just are no 1s.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I think grendel083 has it.

A 2d6 scatter roll is not a To Hit roll, but a Scatter (pg. 6) so rolls of 1 don't count as a 1 to hit for Preferred Enemy. Only a Hit! counts as a hit. There just are no 1s.

You seemed to have missed Grendel's point.

The strictest reading of the rules denies almost all forms of rerolling scatter.

Now, not that I agree with the following, but I would like to point this out for nos: The ability to reroll the to-hits in PE is conditional on whether you have rolled a 1 or not, you only have the ability to re roll the to hit if the first roll was a 1.

I still go with Camp A; you can re-scatter blasts(and thus re-attempt Gets hot that do not require a to hit), but only against your PE

 Leonus wrote:
@rigeld2, any ability that allows you to re-roll a miss (as apposed to re-rolling when you get a specific number on a type of roll you don't make) would allow blasts to re-roll. For instance, the Tactical Doctrine of the Ultramarines would only allow tactical squads to re-roll blasts, not everyone.

You do realize that Blasts never roll To-Hit, right? Meaning the Tac Doctrine does nothing for blasts using your argument.

Preferred Enemy gives the ability to reroll to hit, surely that fulfils the requirement of "the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Preferred Enemy gives the ability to reroll to hit, surely that fulfils the requirement of "the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

It does. Only those unable to read "the ability to Reroll" without replacing it with "is rerolling to hit" can think otherwise, really.

Well, the thing is, you are only given the ability to re-roll when you roll a 1 on a To-Hit roll. Do you have the ability to re-roll if you rolled anything other a 1 on a To-Hit roll? No.

You mean like how Twin-linked only lets you re-roll results of 1 and 2 for BS 4 models?

And yes you do have the ability, you just don't satisfy the condition to use it.

 Leonus wrote:
Well, the thing is, you are only given the ability to re-roll when you roll a 1 on a To-Hit roll. Do you have the ability to re-roll if you rolled anything other a 1 on a To-Hit roll? No.

You do not have the ability to re-roll if you miss with anything other than a 1, yes.

However:

Preferred enemy grants you the ability to re-roll your To-Hit rolls some of the time. <-- This sentence is true, and I do not think anyone can disagree with it.

In fact, "<insert rule here> grants you the ability to re-roll your To-Hit rolls some of the time" is true of every single case in which a To-Hit re-roll is permitted. After all, none of them (iirc) grant permission to re-roll a hit.

So clearly one does not need the ability to re-roll all To-Hit rolls to re-roll blast markers, because such a rule does not exist in the game. Blast To-Hit rolls can be re-rolled even if only some of the possible results are the ones permitting re-rolling if the weapon was not blast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
You mean like how Twin-linked only lets you re-roll results of 1 and 2 for BS 4 models?

And yes you do have the ability, you just don't satisfy the condition to use it.

Well, you do satisfy the condition to use it with Blast Markers, because if you have even the slightest ability to re-roll, then you've satisfied the conditions allowing you to re-roll your scatter.

 Leonus wrote:
Well, the thing is, you are only given the ability to re-roll when you roll a 1 on a To-Hit roll. Do you have the ability to re-roll if you rolled anything other a 1 on a To-Hit roll? No.

Prescience allows you to reroll failed to hit rolls.
Your argument means that Prescience does not allow you to reroll scatter on Blasts.

 Leonus wrote:
Well, the thing is, you are only given the ability to re-roll when you roll a 1 on a To-Hit roll. Do you have the ability to re-roll if you rolled anything other a 1 on a To-Hit roll? No.

Incorrect, having the ability to Reroll is all that is needed.

By that logic, Preferred Enemy [ORK] would also grant you rerolls against any other opponent, because it DOES grant you rerolls sometimes (when you shoot at Orks), and you can also reroll your blasts with Hatred, because that rule also allows you a reroll sometimes...

If I'd have to go absolute anal about it, I would go about it the same way the "Gets Hot"-rule does it; by rolling a seperate dice, and allowing a reroll on a 1.

GeneralCael wrote:
By that logic, Preferred Enemy [ORK] would also grant you rerolls against any other opponent, because it DOES grant you rerolls sometimes (when you shoot at Orks), and you can also reroll your blasts with Hatred, because that rule also allows you a reroll sometimes...

I have no problems with this.

GeneralCael wrote:
If I'd have to go absolute anal about it, I would go about it the same way the "Gets Hot"-rule does it; by rolling a seperate dice, and allowing a reroll on a 1.

There is no basis in RAW for this.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

GeneralCael wrote:
By that logic, Preferred Enemy [ORK] would also grant you rerolls against any other opponent, because it DOES grant you rerolls sometimes (when you shoot at Orks), and you can also reroll your blasts with Hatred, because that rule also allows you a reroll sometimes...

I have no problems with this.

And that is honestly how you play you Hatred rule? I call BS!