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Anything that increases your ballistic skill immediately increases you armies ability to kill things. Having 5 models that can basically make it so a unit is 50% more effective? ( I think that's correct. I'm not good with percentage figures).

It especially becomes more effective when on the first turn you can lay down 3 to 9 ST 10 Ordance Barrage Large Templates on the enemy is pretty effective.

Hollismason wrote:
Anything that increases your ballistic skill immediately increases you armies ability to kill things. Having 5 models that can basically make it so a unit is 50% more effective? ( I think that's correct. I'm not good with percentage figures).

It especially becomes more effective when on the first turn you can lay down 3 to 9 ST 10 Ordance Barrage Large Templates on the enemy is pretty effective.

The percentage accuracy increase depends on your base accuracy. A BS3 model will gain a 50% increase in accuracy from a re-roll, a BS4 model will gain less and a BS2 more. Blast weapon scatter makes things more complicated.

I thought it was 50% for a BS3 so YAY! I was correct.

There is a point per efficiency factor to consider. 10 lasguns hit 5 times for 50pts in an infantry squad. Paying 50pts for a potential 5 more hits is stupid when you could pay 50pts for ten more lasguns. You have to consider if what you're paying for is cheaper to just buy a second rather than paying the 50pts for a TL.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
There is a point per efficiency factor to consider. 10 lasguns hit 5 times for 50pts in an infantry squad. Paying 50pts for a potential 5 more hits is stupid when you could pay 50pts for ten more lasguns. You have to consider if what you're paying for is cheaper to just buy a second rather than paying the 50pts for a TL.

That's why I don't think anyone who is arguing it's a good option is doing so on the basis of using it on basic guardsmen squads as opposed to Leman Russ Punishers.

It also get's exponentially better with Russ squads because of the squadron rules.

Chrysis wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
There is a point per efficiency factor to consider. 10 lasguns hit 5 times for 50pts in an infantry squad. Paying 50pts for a potential 5 more hits is stupid when you could pay 50pts for ten more lasguns. You have to consider if what you're paying for is cheaper to just buy a second rather than paying the 50pts for a TL.

That's why I don't think anyone who is arguing it's a good option is doing so on the basis of using it on basic guardsmen squads as opposed to Leman Russ Punishers.

This^. There is a big difference between presciencing 10 lasguns (which is what some people in this thread assume we'll doing with psykers) and presciencing an entire Leman Russ squadron, a Heavy Weapon Team of ignoring cover Las or Auto cannons, or a Manticore. Hell, Prescience on the Deathstrike is worth it for a turn to make sure you don't get a 12 inch scatter and hit nothing.

Another thing to consider here is points ranges. Of course in a 1000 point game it isn't worth it take all 3 of them! You probably only want to take 1, maybe 2 if you have the proper units to use it on. You only want to use it on this unit of "10 lasguns" people keep referencing as a very last resort.

Hollismason wrote:Anything that increases your ballistic skill immediately increases you armies ability to kill things. Having 5 models that can basically make it so a unit is 50% more effective?

Read:

Ailaros wrote:And think about it like this. You spend 50 points to get 10 lasgun hits. If you spent another 75 points to get another 5 lasguns hits, sometimes, then you'd still be faced with the fact that you could have spent 50 points for 10 more lasgun hits.

It's the classic guard doctrine - it's better to just take more stuff than to try and make the stuff you brought better.

Spending 75 points to make something do 50% more damage only begins to become worth it on units that cost over 150 points. Even then, you're still just looking at killing power. Taking duplicate units has other benefits as well, like being more durable, having more flexibility, taking up more field position, etc.

If you need a concrete example, compare these two things:

Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas
Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas
Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas

and

Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas
Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas
Primaris - lvl 2
Primaris - lvl 2

Even if you assume that you get prescience off every turn (which you won't), they have the same amount of firepower, except the top list has three pieces of AV14, while the second only has two and two squishy psykers. The first list is still better.

And then when you remember that prescience doesn't always go off, and sometimes it just causes the psyker's brain to explode, then the distinction becomes even more obvious.

You're probably not going to see the benefit of a prescience psyker in a guard army until you start talking about units that cost more than ~250 points. Buffing a big blob or a 3x squad of russes, perhaps its worth it, but they're not just always worth it all the time, and they're definitely not grossly overpowered.

Chrysis wrote:

That's why I don't think anyone who is arguing it's a good option is doing so on the basis of using it on basic guardsmen squads as opposed to Leman Russ Punishers.

A punisher is barely worth it, paying 7pts a shot with the main cannon while a psyker buffs it for 5pts a shot. Unless you consider the AV14 platform and LoS opportunities to be worth points as well.

A Punisher that has Precision Shot and Rending, um... gonna have to disagree with you on that.

Hollismason wrote:
A Punisher that has Precision Shot and Rending, um... gonna have to disagree with you on that.

Punisher =/= Paskisher. Reading comprehension.

Pask also gets less benefit, being BS4 and having Preferred Enemy.

If he's your warlord.

Hollismason wrote:
If he's your warlord.

Why wouldn't he be? A preferred enemy super tank is the reason to take Pask.

May want to take a Command Squad w/ Kurovs Aquila. It give's friendly units with in 6 Preffered Enemy. Warlord traits are pretty good.

The primaris is clearly strong. A 50pt Twinlink on a stick is going to be super useful, especially one that can hide as well as an IC can.

That said, we've had a very similar option with inquistors available for a while, and nobody needs five different units twin linked.

I think this will make gunlines stronger in more casual settings, where people tend to ignore the online stuff. For raw power, I can think of a lot of times where you'd want the extra PP, even in addition to two inquisitors.

Add in the different orders abilities, the ability to get preferred enemy on units with in 6inches.

Imperial's got a really strong gun line. Oh and Castellan Creed who rolls twice can issue 3 orders a turn and sit semi safely in a Chimera is like like 205.

Seriously guys you have to take it easy.. try them out, we need facts not fiction. Apart from that they are ok but not OP. OP is something that for its points cost it is great alone. A heldrake is OP and that's not me playing chaos. But a primaris psyker by himslef for 75 pts isn't something. Show us facts about combo them with something other. Yes Div is the best thing out there, along with telepathy prob but, as others mentioned already, an inquisitor even with lvl1 has better and more useful upgrades. But that's just me.

Most events are going to a two detatchment max type setup so being able to get divination without Inquisition is good.

Also everyone keeps talking Precience but getting multiple chances to Misfortune is worthwhile in the current meta. Or 4++ invulnerable on your blob. Or being able to delay vendettas in an air war. Etc.

I wouldn't go so far as to call them overpowered. Strong? Definitely. Worth taking? No doubt. Over powered? No. Versus guardsmen there is no 'save the character by putting them in a team.' With a 5+ save, just melt the whole team. Especially as Tau or Eldar. Unless you're willing to dump the points for Ogryns to protect them I'll just remove them. And as a Saim Hann player, I WILL see you by turn two, and you WILL be dead shortly thereafter.

That said, they will be terror in a chimera behind a Pask Punisher for much rending fun. But that's the punisher that's OP, not the Psyker.

Still worse than jetseer. Squisher, slower, harder to hide, ld9 and not 10, no awesome eldar powers, no ml3. Yep, they're powerful but there are existing ones that are better and noone's too tragic bout that.

Primaris psykers will buff russes greatly. It's now worth taking a punisher with pask + some other tank so prescience on pask's punisher is brutal. They'll find their place in platoons also. Lots of s7 tl ignore-cover shots. Annoying, eh? *looks at eldar and tau once again*

They're good but not really broken, probably a bit underpriced. +10 pts and they're fine.

Hollismason wrote:
Wonderful more bodies! Now let me stick my psykers in a Platoon Squad w/ a Med Pack and a Priest who also does not take up a FOC. Yes. Straight up , looking at them on the level they are amazing. They become a little to powerful when you realize it's really easy to keep them safe and their a utility unit.

You will straight up see Alpha Strike w/ Templates Astra armies. It's to powerful to ignore to be able to drop 3 to 9 twin linked ST 10 AP4 templates that because of servo skulls, roll one less dice.

That's dangerous to put them in the PCS, why one Colossus blast will instant kill everything....oh wait. Seriously PCS is no place for such a "broken" unit. If it is so awesome people will target them, you have to put them in a blob squad or conscript squad for the LoS.

So couldn't Eldar get 2 psykers with guide and prescience each riding around on jetbikes? Isn't that a lot more dangerous? I've never heard anyone say they are broken because of their psykers. Yes a prescienced Pask Punisher squad is dangerous. Yes a prescienced blob with priests with ignores cover will be awesome, but they are deathstar points levels so yeah they are supposed to be powerful right?

I think I might still run my DA librarian with powerfield generator, prescience and 4++ which I don't have to hope to get. You wouldn't believe how tough a AV14 tank or tank squadron with a 4++ is to kill.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Eldar WISH they could carry around as much disposable psychic powers as IG lol. 

That's cute, but no. Silly Mon-keigh. Farseers are comparable, but much better. Having a decent save, 3 wounds, a ghosthelm, and acess to runes etc. Are primaris only a single wound? You know you have a 1/6 chance of rolling perils, right? Pretty high chance of that happening over the course of a 7 turn game.

The benefits of the Primaris is not so much the access to divination, but what it can be used with. In conjunction with the orders available, and actual units that they can buff.

Eldar lose most of the benefit of having such a good psyker with everything being twin-linked as BS4 anyways. Guard on the other hand...

There is too much pointless incorrect flame running in both directions. The psykers have 2 wounds.

I think their ability to roll other powers is also a massive boon. But of course (like it was for Nids in 5ed) it's risky. See how it pans out.

A good question would be; for the reliable primary power, what would be good targets? Big Blobs. Executioner. Plasma PCS?

Still waiting for the internet to figure out that they can take a 50 man flashlight blob. Prescience them, Gate of infinity them 24" to within rapid fire range, give the "Take Aim" order and drop 100 dice with reroll that precision shot on a 6 and put all those precision hits on the psykers in opponants death stars.

 Ailaros wrote:
And think about it like this. You spend 50 points to get 10 lasgun hits. If you spent another 75 points to get another 5 lasguns hits, sometimes, then you'd still be faced with the fact that you could have spent 50 points for 10 more lasgun hits.

It's the classic guard doctrine - it's better to just take more stuff than to try and make the stuff you brought better.

Yeah, in some armies all it does is increase force concentration at cost to the total size of the force. Can take it or leave it. It gets more interesting in armies that are built diversely since then it lets you decide during the game which part of your firepower you want to increase. With multiple types of offensive units you don't normally know in advance what you'll need the most and you can't cheaply expand everything, so being able to flexibly apply buffs might be more useful. Of course that isn't how my army is laid out so I think I just talked myself out of using psykers.

Good luck deepstriking a 50-strong squad. From my experience as an ork, when you roll - 'ere we go - with a wierdboy attacked to 30 boyz - it's better to reroll this. First you have to deepstrike a hellhuge unit which is gona likely be too dangerous and not good by no means unless you're very lucky. Yep ig can get a no-scatter gerar but it's quite expensive and rather slow to deliver. Than you're clustered up and any template is gona murder too much bodies.

 koooaei wrote:
Good luck deepstriking a 50-strong squad. From my experience as an ork, when you roll - 'ere we go - with a wierdboy attacked to 30 boyz - it's better to reroll this. First you have to deepstrike a hellhuge unit which is gona likely be too dangerous and not good by no means unless you're very lucky. Yep ig can get a no-scatter gerar but it's quite expensive and rather slow to deliver. Than you're clustered up and any template is gona murder too much bodies.

Ally in a land speeder storm with the relay. Also covers the troops tax for taking SM allies.

dadakkaest wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Good luck deepstriking a 50-strong squad. From my experience as an ork, when you roll - 'ere we go - with a wierdboy attacked to 30 boyz - it's better to reroll this. First you have to deepstrike a hellhuge unit which is gona likely be too dangerous and not good by no means unless you're very lucky. Yep ig can get a no-scatter gerar but it's quite expensive and rather slow to deliver. Than you're clustered up and any template is gona murder too much bodies.

Ally in a land speeder storm with the relay. Also covers the troops tax for taking SM allies.

So the plan relies on:
The survivability of one Av10 vehicle out front near the enemies lines,
2 successful Psychic tests,
1 successful Order test (which also requires the ordering squad to be close enough),
And for the target to be T6 or under.

And then you kiss the squad goodbye, as a tightly bunched blob of Guardsmen in the open will never last a turn.

Can't see it being usefull.

In my last few games, my primaris psykers were the most effective things on the table. 30 guardsmen, prescience, FRFSRF- that's enough to kill a riptide... who had misfortune cast on him! But yeah, I can agree that these guys are very, very powerful. However, it takes very little to kill one- if there really bugging you than just shoot at his unit. He will die.

If points are a concern, why not stay at ML1. You already get the most useful power.