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And by that I mean game breakingly good. Primaris Psykers are the most broken unit now ever. Dirt cheap, got the best psychic discipline (divinitation), can be MASTERY LEVEL 2 and on top of all that, DO NOT occupy force org slots!

Every IG army will be toting 3 of these guys now - to the point where for the next 5 years Astra Militarum will be synonymous with Primaris Psykers, in the same way CSM is with the hellturkey now. Because thats upto 6 div powers buffing your army. Eldar WISH they could carry around as much disposable psychic powers as IG lol. They have to drop 200 points (admittedly, 25 points less) to get 6 psychic powers per turn and that also occupies both their HQ slots, although their psykers are admittedly tougher (same amount of wounds as the 3 primaris psykers, but ghosthelm and 4++ saves as opposed to the IG's 5++). But then they're out of HQs and cannot select anything else, while IG can still bring on 6 Russes where of course everyone and their mother will be bringing pask and his triple heavy bolter + heavy stubber LR punisher, and this is just the HQ section. Finally, while Eldar do not really need psyhic powers to buff their army (unless you are a master strategist and have some crazy genius combo planned) IG benefit from crazy force multipliers when the right divination powers are used. Leman Russ squadrons, 3 Heavy Weapon teams, CCS with MOO, PCS, 50 man conscript blobs, the increase in effectiveness is staggering.

Crazy.

I think you'll find that in practice, six powers is not quite as useful as you think it will be.

6 powers on a soft and squishy army.
Really not a great impact.

Not really.

I mean, they're not BAD, but they're not ridiculously overpowered either. This mostly comes from the fact that they're stuck with book powers (unlike eldar, who have some pretty interesting codex powers), they can only be mastery level 2, and, despite being ICs, they're still rather fragile.

More importantly, though, look at what they're buffing. Giving combi-weapon sternguard prescience is pretty good. Giving lasguns prescience means that you have slightly better lasguns... still just lasguns.

So yeah, they'll pass out buffs, and they're not bad because of it, but they're in line with other buff givers in the codex like priests and CCSs, not some brave new world of supercheese.

Plus, you could already ally in cheap psykers from the inquisition book, and people were already not doing that.

 Ailaros wrote:
Not really.

I mean, they're not BAD, but they're not ridiculously overpowered either. This mostly comes from the fact that they're stuck with book powers (unlike eldar, who have some pretty interesting codex powers), they can only be mastery level 2, and, despite being ICs, they're still rather fragile.

More importantly, though, look at what they're buffing. Giving combi-weapon sternguard prescience is pretty good. Giving lasguns prescience means that you have slightly better lasguns... still just lasguns.

So yeah, they'll pass out buffs, and they're not bad because of it, but they're in line with other buff givers in the codex like priests and CCSs, not some brave new world of supercheese.

Plus, you could already ally in cheap psykers from the inquisition book, and people were already not doing that.

On the flipside, why not pay 50pts for a Prescience in a shooting army? Know why not before? It was allied in, so mech lists couldn't tote around the prescience in the Chimera that wanted it. Gunline armies almost always (if not always) ran 1-2 Inquisitors + servo skulls. Now? Now you can prescience the dudes inside the Chimera. Now for the low cost of 50pts a blob of guard becomes Ld9 and is TL more often than not. FRFSRF + TL guns? To paraphrase a demotivational: "One Lasgun is diddly. But a hundred Lasguns? That's a whole lot of diddly." 30 Guard at rapid fire putting out 90 shots all but wipes a tac squad off the board, and that's a 200pt all-told investment. Coincidentally, that's about the cost of your average tool'd up tac squad + transport. They'll do even more terrible things to gaunts/orks/guardians/equivalent.

Of course, you could also TL three PCS. Because who doesn't love 4 TL Special Weapons? I do, and I wish I could more easily prescience my SM Command Squads. Or a Russ Squadron. Or a Scion squad. Or any number of heavy weapons teams.

Guard really has no lack of guns to benefit from TLing. You can very easily do a number crunch of how many more potential hits/wounds your 50pt investment gives you over simply buying another squad. If it's not worth it, don't do it. But I assume it's usually pretty worth it.

They are good. Prescience for 50 points? Count me in, when I dont have to shame myself by pacting with Inquisition.

But thinking they can offer six powers to army? Eh, quantity isnt quality. Lets keep it sane and useful for the army. New psykers are good, but still squishy and not mastermages

I've said it before and I will say it again It's borken

Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Pskyer Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points


Total : 266 Points for Level 1 btw , 341 for Level 2

I hope you like trying to kill that because that's 6 Rolls on the Divination Chart 5 Auto Prescience, 3 More Powers in Addition to that.

Pask w/ Leman Russ Punisher , Heavy Bolters, Camo Netting, Spotlight, Relic Armour 224

Leman Russ Punisher w/ H. Bolter, Camo Netting, Spotlight, Relic Armour 184

Leman Russ Exterminator w/ H. Bolter Camo, Netting, Spotlight , Relic Armour 184

Total : 598 points

HQ :
Tank Commander w/ Leman Russ Exterminator Same as Above ,but 204

Exterminator 174

Exterminator 174

Total 552

Total = 1406

Yaay I have even gotten to my Elites, Troops or H. Support.

That's why it's broken.

Another way to look at that, you've not even gotten to troops, and you're at 1406.

Good luck at 1500.

What's with the love for Exterminators? Am I missing something? It's a couple autocannons. Woohoo? And they're already TL.

Not really, seeming you have nothing to use those powers on, and so will be wasting a lot of powers a turn.

Plus it is really easy to kill those div psykers unless you get a sizable troop unit, which costs a good amount of points that you aren't spending on stuff to get buffed

Hollismason wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again It's borken

Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Pskyer Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points


Total : 256 Points ,

I hope you like trying to kill that because that's 6 Rolls on the Divination Chart 5 Auto Prescience, 3 More Powers in Addition to that.

Pask w/ Leman Russ Punisher , Heavy Bolters, Camo Netting, Spotlight, Relic Armour 224

Leman Russ Punisher w/ H. Bolter, Camo Netting, Spotlight, Relic Armour 184

Leman Russ Exterminator w/ H. Bolter Camo, Netting, Spotlight , Relic Armour 184

Total : 598 points

HQ :
Tank Commander w/ Leman Russ Exterminator Same as Above ,but 204

Exterminator 174

Exterminator 174

Total 552

Total = 1406

Yaay I have even gotten to my Elites, Troops or H. Support.

That's why it's broken.

So how exactly do you plan on scoring?

 Ailaros wrote:
This mostly comes from the fact that they're stuck with book powers

I'd hardly call getting divination, the best powers in the game, being "stuck with" something.

they can only be mastery level 2

Yeah, those poor primaris psykers, they don't get to be higher ML than every non-farseer/special character psyker in the game.

More importantly, though, look at what they're buffing.

Yeah, let's look at that: they're buffing tanks, special weapon command squads, etc. Why would you evaluate them based on buffing lasguns instead of real units?

Plus, you could already ally in cheap psykers from the inquisition book, and people were already not doing that.

Err, lol? Divination inquisitors are an auto-include, the only people that aren't using them are people who are afraid of being labeled WAAC, and people who play in tournaments that don't allow it.

Hollismason wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again It's borken

Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Pskyer Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points


Total : 256 Points ,

Err... 75 +75 +75 + 58 + 58 (25 + 30 + 3 = 58) = 341
You're a little off.

Prescience when combines with orders is fething deadly. Now that we can ignore cover, shoot and run, precision shot, split fire and get tank hunter at will primaris psykers can indeed be freaking nasty.

Biophysical wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Pskyer Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points

Total : 256 Points ,

Err... 75 +75 +75 + 58 + 58 (25 + 30 + 3 = 58) = 341
You're a little off.

Yeah, that's a lot of points just to make some twin-linking.

And it's 5 squishy models.

Plus, you're still not guaranteed to get any particular power (other than prescience), and you're not guaranteed to get the power off when you need it. I foresee perils tests in the near future.

And psyocculums...

---

And think about it like this. You spend 50 points to get 10 lasgun hits. If you spent another 75 points to get another 5 lasguns hits, sometimes, then you'd still be faced with the fact that you could have spent 50 points for 10 more lasgun hits.

It's the classic guard doctrine - it's better to just take more stuff than to try and make the stuff you brought better.

Biophysical wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again It's borken

Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Pskyer Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points


Total : 256 Points ,

Err... 75 +75 +75 + 58 + 58 (25 + 30 + 3 = 58) = 341
You're a little off.

I know!! So embarrassed it's what I get for doing it in my head really fast!


Seriously , their really broken. Now that's just messing around. What happens when you start showing up with 3 Wyverns 2 Manticores and 3 Primaris Psykers. That's really nasty.

Basically, with some good rolling AM can alpha strike you first turn with templates.

 Ailaros wrote:
and you're not guaranteed to get the power off when you need it.

Yeah, those LD 9/10 psykers are just so unreliable...

I foresee perils tests in the near future.

Err, lol?

And think about it like this. You spend 50 points to get 10 lasgun hits. If you spent another 75 points to get another 5 lasguns hits, sometimes, then you'd still be faced with the fact that you could have spent 50 points for 10 more lasgun hits.

Or you could actually consider more powerful units instead of assuming that those psykers are wasting their time on basic infantry squads. How about considering inquisitors with special grenades in 50-man blobs, Coteaz in a plasma squad making a 12" radius where deep striking is banned, or divination psykers boosting LR Executioner squads?

I think in tank armies they will be invaluable. Getting 3 russes twinlinking, or giving 3 basis twin linking. Really upgrades their damage output. Also allows you to take advantage of barrage from out of LOS more safely.

Also, 1403? Depending on your points that still leaves plenty of bodies to field for the imperial guard.

3 Manticores = 510

Pask Squadron = 598

5 Divinations = 266

That still leaves Plllllenty of points left over, like seriously you can get a 50 man blob of Conscripts with a priest behind a Aegis Defense line for 225 points.

Anything that is that powerful and does not take up an FOC is broken. How are you going to shoot those Primaris hidden in the backfield behind Manticores inside a Platoon Squad w/ a medpack ? That's basically 5 ablative wounds that are feel no pain, throw in a priest they're fearless!!

Hollismason wrote:
Also, 1403? Depending on your points that still leaves plenty of bodies to field for the imperial guard.

3 Manticores = 510

Pask Squadron = 598

5 Divinations = 266

That still leaves Plllllenty of points left over, like seriously you can get a 50 man blob of Conscripts with a priest behind a Aegis Defense line for 225 points.

355. You also need to pay for the two infantry squads and PCS.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Also, 1403? Depending on your points that still leaves plenty of bodies to field for the imperial guard.

3 Manticores = 510

Pask Squadron = 598

5 Divinations = 266

That still leaves Plllllenty of points left over, like seriously you can get a 50 man blob of Conscripts with a priest behind a Aegis Defense line for 225 points.

355. You also need to pay for the two infantry squads and PCS.

Also, you would need a second troop choice.

Wonderful more bodies! Now let me stick my psykers in a Platoon Squad w/ a Med Pack and a Priest who also does not take up a FOC. Yes. Straight up , looking at them on the level they are amazing. They become a little to powerful when you realize it's really easy to keep them safe and their a utility unit.

You will straight up see Alpha Strike w/ Templates Astra armies. It's to powerful to ignore to be able to drop 3 to 9 twin linked ST 10 AP4 templates that because of servo skulls, roll one less dice.

Hollismason wrote:
Wonderful more bodies! Now let me stick my psykers in a Platoon Squad w/ a Med Pack and a Priest who also does not take up a FOC.

So now you need five priests. One for each squad with a psyker in it and two for the conscript blobs. Plus a medpac, which is what, 10pts? 15pts?

So 355 is a blob plus priest. Add in the medpac and priest (not sure why you're hiding the primaris in a 5 man PCS rather than 20 man blob of guard). You're bordering a 400pt troops choice. One troops choice. So I hope you're playing at point levels of 2200+.

No because you can join 5 Psykers to one squad or any multiples there in. They're independent Characters. They could form their own unit if they wanted to.

Platoon Command Squad 55 Points w/ Medipack , 1 Priest 25 Points, 3 Psykers 150 Points ( I wouldn't actually do this just saying)
Yay my whole squad has feel no pain!! Oh and I have a priest! So if you do charge, I can take a check to reroll my invulnerables.

You need two troops for a legal list.

I don´t get why people seem to hate lasguns so much. I found that they are one of the most powerful things in guard. I mean they are just S3, but they have a HUGE amount of shots and prescience effectivelly doubles the hits and wounds, most MEQs and TEQs will just melt when facing a 50-man blob of guardsmen.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
You need two troops for a legal list.

Great again, more bodies!! Yes, Imperial Guard are dirt cheap. We can keep going back and forth but Imperial Guard are a horde army and are dirt cheap to purchase. So saying " Well you need troops..." is not a great argument and I feel like every time your just gonna keep coming up with bizzarre scenarios and argueing against my example and just thrown out there theory. We're not debating a armies composition we're debating whether Primaris Psykers are over powered and they totally are but here you go.


Two Infantry Platoons Auto Cannons 120 Points
Platoon Command Squad Medpack 55 Points
Priest 25

200 Points


Two Infantry Platoons Auto Cannons 120 Points
Platoon Command Squad Medpack 55 Points
Priest 25

200 Points

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
This mostly comes from the fact that they're stuck with book powers

I'd hardly call getting divination, the best powers in the game, being "stuck with" something.

Compared to old pick and mix powers, you're only getting to pick one power, prescience. There is an argument to be made that the BRB power rolling system has its downsides as a result.

they can only be mastery level 2

Yeah, those poor primaris psykers, they don't get to be higher ML than every non-farseer/special character psyker in the game.

Listing limitations does not imply there is any desire for better here.

Plus, you could already ally in cheap psykers from the inquisition book, and people were already not doing that.

Err, lol? Divination inquisitors are an auto-include, the only people that aren't using them are people who are afraid of being labeled WAAC, and people who play in tournaments that don't allow it.

This is a load of toss. At the very least, in a highly competitive list that is Mechanised or already making use of Primaris Psykers instead, Inquisitors are definitely not at the top of list of things to include, since they're a liability with their limitations or just not needed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
and you're not guaranteed to get the power off when you need it.

Yeah, those LD 9/10 psykers are just so unreliable...

not guaranteed =/= unreliable

Plus, 1 in 6 times he casts a power he fails it, so on average, almost once a game, or every 3-4 turns if they're ML2, per psyker. It could happen at a critical point, given Murphy's Law.

wth are Primaris Psykers better than warlocks? This makes me sad.

I don't think they're as good as Warlocks. I mean they get a Invulnerable but it's 5+ and their 50 points but they get to roll on 3 really good charts.

[quote=Hollismason 590111 6730464 null
Great again, more bodies!! Yes, Imperial Guard are dirt cheap. We can keep going back and forth but Imperial Guard are a horde army and are dirt cheap to purchase. So saying " Well you need troops..." is not a great argument and I feel like every time your just gonna keep coming up with bizzarre scenarios and argueing against my example and just thrown out there theory. We're not debating a armies composition we're debating whether Primaris Psykers are over powered and they totally are but here you go.


Two Infantry Platoons Auto Cannons 120 Points
Platoon Command Squad Medpack 55 Points
Priest 25

200 Points


Two Infantry Platoons Auto Cannons 120 Points
Platoon Command Squad Medpack 55 Points
Priest 25

200 Points