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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Which implies that they are NOT two models BEFORE they are no longer mounted, otherwise they would not BECOME two models when their mount dies.

you make no sense... when a monster and a rider join up, they become two models on one base and are randomized for the point of targeting... how is that any different other than one being a monster and the other being infantry?

you can use the same formula here folks... its not hard...

when a rider joins a monstrous cav mount, they take on the toughness and wounds characteristic of that model. Here you have two riders joining one model... again, other than what attachment you have to ONE MODEL... what difference is there? stop trying to rules hack... When they are mounted on the dragon, you roll to see if you hit the dragon or the riders... if you hit the riders then you randomize between the two of them... easy peasy...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
They are two seperate models because the Army book illustrates what to do with them when they are no longer mounted.

Find me a rule that explains how to target two MC riders. The BRB specifically states that you use one profile for MC. This raises the whole thing of, what happens when these two models become MC.

And, whilst the two models on one base thing would solve most of the issues, it raises another. Who gets hit? Do they all get hit? That kinda negates their whole thing of 'we die if you don't kill us both'. Or does one of them get hit? If so, how do you determine which one?

You dont need a rule because its already there, you are just over thinking it...

you randomize it unless its a template or the model doing the shooting has sniper... even then, according to the rules that govern a cannon firing you still cannot kill both girls at one time as they are represented on one base, you can only hit one model per rank. That still can be solved by randomization... roll a dice... 50% chance of killing either of them... fire another cannon... oops, killed the other one... thats not as scary as everyone os making it out to be...

the sky is not falling... the rules are there, just stop being so one-dimensional

Really confused. So..it's clear that the model gets the eagle's # of wounds...and if all wounds are lost..everyone is dead? O_o

Just talking RAW here...as they are just MC, they become one model.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Which implies that they are NOT two models BEFORE they are no longer mounted, otherwise they would not BECOME two models when their mount dies.

you make no sense... when a monster and a rider join up, they become two models on one base and are randomized for the point of targeting... how is that any different other than one being a monster and the other being infantry?

you can use the same formula here folks... its not hard...

when a rider joins a monstrous cav mount, they take on the toughness and wounds characteristic of that model. Here you have two riders joining one model... again, other than what attachment you have to ONE MODEL... what difference is there? stop trying to rules hack... When they are mounted on the dragon, you roll to see if you hit the dragon or the riders... if you hit the riders then you randomize between the two of them... easy peasy...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
They are two seperate models because the Army book illustrates what to do with them when they are no longer mounted.

Find me a rule that explains how to target two MC riders. The BRB specifically states that you use one profile for MC. This raises the whole thing of, what happens when these two models become MC.

And, whilst the two models on one base thing would solve most of the issues, it raises another. Who gets hit? Do they all get hit? That kinda negates their whole thing of 'we die if you don't kill us both'. Or does one of them get hit? If so, how do you determine which one?

You dont need a rule because its already there, you are just over thinking it...

you randomize it unless its a template or the model doing the shooting has sniper... even then, according to the rules that govern a cannon firing you still cannot kill both girls at one time as they are represented on one base, you can only hit one model per rank. That still can be solved by randomization... roll a dice... 50% chance of killing either of them... fire another cannon... oops, killed the other one... thats not as scary as everyone os making it out to be...

the sky is not falling... the rules are there, just stop being so one-dimensional

+1

Where do you get your permission to randomize hits from? They aren't ridden monsters if riding an eagle, just MC...

Actual rules please, not HYWPI.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
They are two seperate models because the Army book illustrates what to do with them when they are no longer mounted.

Find me a rule that explains how to target two MC riders. The BRB specifically states that you use one profile for MC. This raises the whole thing of, what happens when these two models become MC.

And, whilst the two models on one base thing would solve most of the issues, it raises another. Who gets hit? Do they all get hit? That kinda negates their whole thing of 'we die if you don't kill us both'. Or does one of them get hit? If so, how do you determine which one?

You dont need a rule because its already there, you are just over thinking it...

you randomize it unless its a template or the model doing the shooting has sniper... even then, according to the rules that govern a cannon firing you still cannot kill both girls at one time as they are represented on one base, you can only hit one model per rank. That still can be solved by randomization... roll a dice... 50% chance of killing either of them... fire another cannon... oops, killed the other one... thats not as scary as everyone os making it out to be...

the sky is not falling... the rules are there, just stop being so one-dimensional

No. The rule isn't.

It's like this.

Mount them on MB, they become MC.

MC states that you use a single profile.

We have rules for them as a separate model after they're mounted.

Not whilst they're mounted.

This means, as per the rulebook, when mounted, they are treated as a single model.

So. When hitting MC with a cannon, they all get hit. As they are a single model.

Stop making rules up to prove a point.

^

I fully agree with this - double-checked and can't see anything that disagrees with it in the rules.

End of the line: never, ever put those guys on an eagle.

The MC rules don't say that at all actually

What they do say, is that the rider has a set of stats and the mount has a set of stats. You do not use the toughness or wounds of the mount but that of the rider. This joins them to make a single model. Now, in this instance you have two characters mounting one beast, each character with their own stats. The only thing you are given permission to negate is their wounds as they gain one more for beat on beast cav, not normal cav. Everything else remains the same. Which means you are trying to make them (the sisters) into one model. You do not have permission for this. When naestra gets on the eagle, they become one model. When Abraham gets on the eagle, they become one model. Now you are still in compliance with rules, but you are confused because how can two separate models be represented by one model... It's super easy, just like the monster mounts do, except that you have two characters instead of a character and a monster. So what happens when you have two characters together? In the rule book it actually states that the owning player gets tow choose who takes the wound, as long as wounds are distributed evenly when they are recieved. So what rules am I making up?

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
The MC rules don't say that at all actually

What they do say, is that the rider has a set of stats and the mount has a set of stats. You do not use the toughness or wounds of the mount but that of the rider. This joins them to make a single model. Now, in this instance you have two characters mounting one beast, each character with their own stats. The only thing you are given permission to negate is their wounds as they gain one more for beat on beast cav, not normal cav. Everything else remains the same. Which means you are trying to make them (the sisters) into one model. You do not have permission for this. When naestra gets on the eagle, they become one model. When Abraham gets on the eagle, they become one model. Now you are still in compliance with rules, but you are confused because how can two separate models be represented by one model... It's super easy, just like the monster mounts do, except that you have two characters instead of a character and a monster. So what happens when you have two characters together? In the rule book it actually states that the owning player gets tow choose who takes the wound, as long as wounds are distributed evenly when they are recieved. So what rules am I making up?

But we don't randomise against MC. We randomise against Chariots and ridden monsters. This means as far as cannons are concerned, they are ONE model. Therefore, they all get hit.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
The MC rules don't say that at all actually

What they do say, is that the rider has a set of stats and the mount has a set of stats. You do not use the toughness or wounds of the mount but that of the rider. This joins them to make a single model. Now, in this instance you have two characters mounting one beast, each character with their own stats. The only thing you are given permission to negate is their wounds as they gain one more for beat on beast cav, not normal cav. Everything else remains the same. Which means you are trying to make them (the sisters) into one model. You do not have permission for this. When naestra gets on the eagle, they become one model. When Abraham gets on the eagle, they become one model. Now you are still in compliance with rules, but you are confused because how can two separate models be represented by one model... It's super easy, just like the monster mounts do, except that you have two characters instead of a character and a monster. So what happens when you have two characters together? In the rule book it actually states that the owning player gets tow choose who takes the wound, as long as wounds are distributed evenly when they are recieved. So what rules am I making up?

Quote the rules or leave the discussion. YMDC is used for RAW, not HYWPI. If riding an eagle, they become a single MC.

p. 105 tells you the rules about Monstrous Cavalry mounts and it tells you that "the whole model is treated as having the troop type monstrous cavalry and follows all the rules for both characters and monstrous cavalry models". It EXPLICITELY tells you that "It's worth noting that the rules for Ridden Monsters DO NOT apply to monstrous cavalry mounts - they are two distinct troop types". This exactly makes your entire post void as the BRB tells you exactly that you may NOT randomize any hits taken.

The rules for MC then tell you that the only difference to normal cavalry is that you gain Stomp, Monstrous Ranks and always use the highest amount of wounds of all profiles (p.83).

End of the story: put them on an eagle, they become a single MC, lose 3 wounds, everyone dies. Don't put them on an eagle, that'd be a huge waste of points.

Your turn, quote the rules.

As most people here are right, what we hope is a FAQ which makes an exception for this due to fluff and the special rules of the special characters. Till then playing them on an eagle is a waste. As is playing them on a dragon.

 Sigvatr wrote:

p. 105 tells you the rules about Monstrous Cavalry mounts and it tells you that "the whole model is treated as having the troop type monstrous cavalry and follows all the rules for both characters and monstrous cavalry models". It EXPLICITELY tells you that "It's worth noting that the rules for Ridden Monsters DO NOT apply to monstrous cavalry mounts - they are two distinct troop types". This exactly makes your entire post void as the BRB tells you exactly that you may NOT randomize any hits taken.

Your turn, quote the rules.

Don't randomize as per monster and rider, randomize a per firing at a unit with a character and less than 5 rank and file (just like when you fire at my Vampire Lord and the BSB once the rest of the unit is dead).
Monstrous Cav rules as stated in the BRB are referring to a single rider.
The twins are a hero choice which is 2 characters.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

p. 105 tells you the rules about Monstrous Cavalry mounts and it tells you that "the whole model is treated as having the troop type monstrous cavalry and follows all the rules for both characters and monstrous cavalry models". It EXPLICITELY tells you that "It's worth noting that the rules for Ridden Monsters DO NOT apply to monstrous cavalry mounts - they are two distinct troop types". This exactly makes your entire post void as the BRB tells you exactly that you may NOT randomize any hits taken.

Your turn, quote the rules.

Don't randomize as per monster and rider, randomize a per firing at a unit with a character and less than 5 rank and file (just like when you fire at my Vampire Lord and the BSB once the rest of the unit is dead).
Monstrous Cav rules as stated in the BRB are referring to a single rider.
The twins are a hero choice which is 2 characters.

-Matt

Quote the rule for two characters on the same mount please. I'll wait.

Also you randomise between models and there's only 1 model so you randomise 1-3 hits Arahan & Neastra then 4-6 hits Neastra & Arahan...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Also you randomise between models and there's only 1 model so you randomise 1-3 hits Arahan & Neastra then 4-6 hits Neastra & Arahan...

Exactly. And they both hit the eagle.

The only way I could think of it working are them being a T4 4 wound model on an eagle with no ward save. That means that conjoined destiny has a minute chance of working, and the fact that they're two models is represented.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
The MC rules don't say that at all actually

What they do say, is that the rider has a set of stats and the mount has a set of stats. You do not use the toughness or wounds of the mount but that of the rider. This joins them to make a single model. Now, in this instance you have two characters mounting one beast, each character with their own stats. The only thing you are given permission to negate is their wounds as they gain one more for beat on beast cav, not normal cav. Everything else remains the same. Which means you are trying to make them (the sisters) into one model. You do not have permission for this. When naestra gets on the eagle, they become one model. When Abraham gets on the eagle, they become one model. Now you are still in compliance with rules, but you are confused because how can two separate models be represented by one model... It's super easy, just like the monster mounts do, except that you have two characters instead of a character and a monster. So what happens when you have two characters together? In the rule book it actually states that the owning player gets tow choose who takes the wound, as long as wounds are distributed evenly when they are recieved. So what rules am I making up?

Quote the rules or leave the discussion. YMDC is used for RAW, not HYWPI. If riding an eagle, they become a single MC.

p. 105 tells you the rules about Monstrous Cavalry mounts and it tells you that "the whole model is treated as having the troop type monstrous cavalry and follows all the rules for both characters and monstrous cavalry models". It EXPLICITELY tells you that "It's worth noting that the rules for Ridden Monsters DO NOT apply to monstrous cavalry mounts - they are two distinct troop types". This exactly makes your entire post void as the BRB tells you exactly that you may NOT randomize any hits taken.

The rules for MC then tell you that the only difference to normal cavalry is that you gain Stomp, Monstrous Ranks and always use the highest amount of wounds of all profiles (p.83).

End of the story: put them on an eagle, they become a single MC, lose 3 wounds, everyone dies. Don't put them on an eagle, that'd be a huge waste of points.

Your turn, quote the rules.

First off, make me leave... get a MOD in here or whatever because you know I am quoting the rules you just want me to give you a page number, but the fact of the matter is, I dont have them memorized. Go ahead, go get one, I'll wait right here while you pull this schoolyard nonsense.

But I'll go ahead and take a whack it, naturally.

YMDC means exactly HWYPI, ya git! Thats the whole point of this forum, to argue until a resolution can be made. Your point of it being RAW vs. RAI is exactly that. You just dont want to accept the fact that you are playing a FANTASY GAME!!!!! where imagination is needed sometimes. You want to play rules as written? I bet you arent going to give someone crap if they dont have a citadel plastic forest, otherwise they cant use the forests for wood elves because guess what? Thats what rules as written say... are we done with the whole RAW? good... moving on!

Page 105 does not invalidate anything I said because you arent reading what I've read, you are extrapolating some SWAG and assuming thats what I mean. I am simply using ridden monsters as a relational point in order to understand the concept of having multiple models represented on one base. For a ridden monster model, you have two different stats representing one model... PLEASE DISREGARD AND USE YOUR IMAGINATION FOR A SECOND WHILE I EXPLAIN!!!! This is the relation... Just like you have a monster and a character represented on one model, you can also have two characters represented on one model... it is suuuuuuper easy and doesnt really take any amount of confusion.

Now you are going to say "show me where in the rules where it says to do that..." and I would tell you "that there is no explicit paragraph that describes having two characters on one mount", but there are rules on having two characters in one unit. That is described starting on page 96. It says that characters effectively become part of the unit and are indistinguishable apart from having seperate stats, as you cannot single characters out unless you have a rule that allows you to do so. But because of the cav rules we have to pressume that these characters are simply making a unit with each other represented by one model. *GASP* just like I illustrated earlier about ridden monsters. The difference being here is that the hits are not randomized at anything, because thats what it says on page 98 when shooting at characters when there are less than 5 models in a rank to protect them. The owning player gets to choose who takes wounds as long as the wounds are distributed evenly, meaning you cant put three wounds on one and then starting putting wounds on the other, you have to put one and one, two and two, three and three, so the model can take 5 wounds before it actually dies due to their special rule that brings them back.

those are the rules that I am quoting to explain my point... now you can broaden you mind and accept the fact that people are still going to play these characters even without a proper faq, or you can go ahead and continue to be narrow minded and squack like a parroting drone about "RAW!!! RAWWWW!!!"

polly want a cracker?

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
The MC rules don't say that at all actually

What they do say, is that the rider has a set of stats and the mount has a set of stats. You do not use the toughness or wounds of the mount but that of the rider. This joins them to make a single model. Now, in this instance you have two characters mounting one beast, each character with their own stats. The only thing you are given permission to negate is their wounds as they gain one more for beat on beast cav, not normal cav. Everything else remains the same. Which means you are trying to make them (the sisters) into one model. You do not have permission for this. When naestra gets on the eagle, they become one model. When Abraham gets on the eagle, they become one model. Now you are still in compliance with rules, but you are confused because how can two separate models be represented by one model... It's super easy, just like the monster mounts do, except that you have two characters instead of a character and a monster. So what happens when you have two characters together? In the rule book it actually states that the owning player gets tow choose who takes the wound, as long as wounds are distributed evenly when they are recieved. So what rules am I making up?

Quote the rules or leave the discussion. YMDC is used for RAW, not HYWPI. If riding an eagle, they become a single MC.

p. 105 tells you the rules about Monstrous Cavalry mounts and it tells you that "the whole model is treated as having the troop type monstrous cavalry and follows all the rules for both characters and monstrous cavalry models". It EXPLICITELY tells you that "It's worth noting that the rules for Ridden Monsters DO NOT apply to monstrous cavalry mounts - they are two distinct troop types". This exactly makes your entire post void as the BRB tells you exactly that you may NOT randomize any hits taken.

The rules for MC then tell you that the only difference to normal cavalry is that you gain Stomp, Monstrous Ranks and always use the highest amount of wounds of all profiles (p.83).

End of the story: put them on an eagle, they become a single MC, lose 3 wounds, everyone dies. Don't put them on an eagle, that'd be a huge waste of points.

Your turn, quote the rules.

First off, make me leave... get a MOD in here or whatever because you know I am quoting the rules you just want me to give you a page number, but the fact of the matter is, I dont have them memorized. Go ahead, go get one, I'll wait right here while you pull this schoolyard nonsense.

But I'll go ahead and take a whack it, naturally.

YMDC means exactly HWYPI, ya git! Thats the whole point of this forum, to argue until a resolution can be made. Your point of it being RAW vs. RAI is exactly that. You just dont want to accept the fact that you are playing a FANTASY GAME!!!!! where imagination is needed sometimes. You want to play rules as written? I bet you arent going to give someone crap if they dont have a citadel plastic forest, otherwise they cant use the forests for wood elves because guess what? Thats what rules as written say... are we done with the whole RAW? good... moving on!

Page 105 does not invalidate anything I said because you arent reading what I've read, you are extrapolating some SWAG and assuming thats what I mean. I am simply using ridden monsters as a relational point in order to understand the concept of having multiple models represented on one base. For a ridden monster model, you have two different stats representing one model... PLEASE DISREGARD AND USE YOUR IMAGINATION FOR A SECOND WHILE I EXPLAIN!!!! This is the relation... Just like you have a monster and a character represented on one model, you can also have two characters represented on one model... it is suuuuuuper easy and doesnt really take any amount of confusion.

Now you are going to say "show me where in the rules where it says to do that..." and I would tell you "that there is no explicit paragraph that describes having two characters on one mount", but there are rules on having two characters in one unit. That is described starting on page 96. It says that characters effectively become part of the unit and are indistinguishable apart from having seperate stats, as you cannot single characters out unless you have a rule that allows you to do so. But because of the cav rules we have to pressume that these characters are simply making a unit with each other represented by one model. *GASP* just like I illustrated earlier about ridden monsters. The difference being here is that the hits are not randomized at anything, because thats what it says on page 98 when shooting at characters when there are less than 5 models in a rank to protect them. The owning player gets to choose who takes wounds as long as the wounds are distributed evenly, meaning you cant put three wounds on one and then starting putting wounds on the other, you have to put one and one, two and two, three and three, so the model can take 5 wounds before it actually dies due to their special rule that brings them back.

those are the rules that I am quoting to explain my point... now you can broaden you mind and accept the fact that people are still going to play these characters even without a proper faq, or you can go ahead and continue to be narrow minded and squack like a parroting drone about "RAW!!! RAWWWW!!!"

polly want a cracker?

So. Your entire post is summed up as follows:

Imagination trumps rules.

That's not what this forum is about.

There are no rules for two characters on the same mount. Therefore we follow the rules for characters as MC. They are treated as a single model. As I said, the simplest thing is to make it a 4W T4 model. The bottom line is this. A cannon hits ALL of them.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

p. 105 tells you the rules about Monstrous Cavalry mounts and it tells you that "the whole model is treated as having the troop type monstrous cavalry and follows all the rules for both characters and monstrous cavalry models". It EXPLICITELY tells you that "It's worth noting that the rules for Ridden Monsters DO NOT apply to monstrous cavalry mounts - they are two distinct troop types". This exactly makes your entire post void as the BRB tells you exactly that you may NOT randomize any hits taken.

Your turn, quote the rules.

Don't randomize as per monster and rider, randomize a per firing at a unit with a character and less than 5 rank and file (just like when you fire at my Vampire Lord and the BSB once the rest of the unit is dead).
Monstrous Cav rules as stated in the BRB are referring to a single rider.
The twins are a hero choice which is 2 characters.

-Matt

Quote the rule for two characters on the same mount please. I'll wait.

That's one is easy. It's page 59 of the wood wood elf book. Naestra and Arahan are Troop type Special Character.
Similar rules are in the O&G book for Grom, Nibblit and his chariot.
1 mount, 2 characters.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
The MC rules don't say that at all actually

What they do say, is that the rider has a set of stats and the mount has a set of stats. You do not use the toughness or wounds of the mount but that of the rider. This joins them to make a single model. Now, in this instance you have two characters mounting one beast, each character with their own stats. The only thing you are given permission to negate is their wounds as they gain one more for beat on beast cav, not normal cav. Everything else remains the same. Which means you are trying to make them (the sisters) into one model. You do not have permission for this. When naestra gets on the eagle, they become one model. When Abraham gets on the eagle, they become one model. Now you are still in compliance with rules, but you are confused because how can two separate models be represented by one model... It's super easy, just like the monster mounts do, except that you have two characters instead of a character and a monster. So what happens when you have two characters together? In the rule book it actually states that the owning player gets tow choose who takes the wound, as long as wounds are distributed evenly when they are recieved. So what rules am I making up?

Quote the rules or leave the discussion. YMDC is used for RAW, not HYWPI. If riding an eagle, they become a single MC.

p. 105 tells you the rules about Monstrous Cavalry mounts and it tells you that "the whole model is treated as having the troop type monstrous cavalry and follows all the rules for both characters and monstrous cavalry models". It EXPLICITELY tells you that "It's worth noting that the rules for Ridden Monsters DO NOT apply to monstrous cavalry mounts - they are two distinct troop types". This exactly makes your entire post void as the BRB tells you exactly that you may NOT randomize any hits taken.

The rules for MC then tell you that the only difference to normal cavalry is that you gain Stomp, Monstrous Ranks and always use the highest amount of wounds of all profiles (p.83).

End of the story: put them on an eagle, they become a single MC, lose 3 wounds, everyone dies. Don't put them on an eagle, that'd be a huge waste of points.

Your turn, quote the rules.

First off, make me leave... get a MOD in here or whatever because you know I am quoting the rules you just want me to give you a page number, but the fact of the matter is, I dont have them memorized. Go ahead, go get one, I'll wait right here while you pull this schoolyard nonsense.

But I'll go ahead and take a whack it, naturally.

YMDC means exactly HWYPI, ya git! Thats the whole point of this forum, to argue until a resolution can be made. Your point of it being RAW vs. RAI is exactly that. You just dont want to accept the fact that you are playing a FANTASY GAME!!!!! where imagination is needed sometimes. You want to play rules as written? I bet you arent going to give someone crap if they dont have a citadel plastic forest, otherwise they cant use the forests for wood elves because guess what? Thats what rules as written say... are we done with the whole RAW? good... moving on!

Page 105 does not invalidate anything I said because you arent reading what I've read, you are extrapolating some SWAG and assuming thats what I mean. I am simply using ridden monsters as a relational point in order to understand the concept of having multiple models represented on one base. For a ridden monster model, you have two different stats representing one model... PLEASE DISREGARD AND USE YOUR IMAGINATION FOR A SECOND WHILE I EXPLAIN!!!! This is the relation... Just like you have a monster and a character represented on one model, you can also have two characters represented on one model... it is suuuuuuper easy and doesnt really take any amount of confusion.

Now you are going to say "show me where in the rules where it says to do that..." and I would tell you "that there is no explicit paragraph that describes having two characters on one mount", but there are rules on having two characters in one unit. That is described starting on page 96. It says that characters effectively become part of the unit and are indistinguishable apart from having seperate stats, as you cannot single characters out unless you have a rule that allows you to do so. But because of the cav rules we have to pressume that these characters are simply making a unit with each other represented by one model. *GASP* just like I illustrated earlier about ridden monsters. The difference being here is that the hits are not randomized at anything, because thats what it says on page 98 when shooting at characters when there are less than 5 models in a rank to protect them. The owning player gets to choose who takes wounds as long as the wounds are distributed evenly, meaning you cant put three wounds on one and then starting putting wounds on the other, you have to put one and one, two and two, three and three, so the model can take 5 wounds before it actually dies due to their special rule that brings them back.

those are the rules that I am quoting to explain my point... now you can broaden you mind and accept the fact that people are still going to play these characters even without a proper faq, or you can go ahead and continue to be narrow minded and squack like a parroting drone about "RAW!!! RAWWWW!!!"

polly want a cracker?

So. Your entire post is summed up as follows:

Imagination trumps rules.

That's not what this forum is about.

There are no rules for two characters on the same mount. Therefore we follow the rules for characters as MC. They are treated as a single model. As I said, the simplest thing is to make it a 4W T4 model. The bottom line is this. A cannon hits ALL of them.

You dont even know the rules yourself and you're telling me how it is? What do the rules for MC say about toughness and wounds? because I can tell you that you that you are wrong about everything you've said, mainly about the sisters becoming toughness 4. Where are you getting 4 wounds from? you arent combining the sisters, they are still two seperate profiles, two seperate targets represented on one model.

There is a FaQ that means Monstrous Cav take toughness as well as wounds from highest value. They are definitely T4 on the Eagle it is just whether they have 3 wounds or 6.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:


those are the rules that I am quoting to explain my point... now you can broaden you mind and accept the fact that people are still going to play these characters even without a proper faq, or you can go ahead and continue to be narrow minded and squack like a parroting drone about "RAW!!! RAWWWW!!!"

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Games Workshop are easily spoofed and are notorious for being inconsistent and so should not be relied on.

4. Rules as Written are not How You Would Play It. Please clearly state which one you are talking about during a rules debate, and do not argue a RAW point against a HYWPI point (or vice-versa).
- Many arguments can be avoided if this is made clear. Don't assume you know the point your opponent is arguing about.

5. Stick to discussing the rules, not the poster. Phrases like "Rules Lawyer", "Cheater" and "TFG" have no place in rules discussions. Don't depart from rules discussions by attaching value judgments to different interpretations.

7. Do not bring The Most Important Rule (TMIR) into these rules discussions. While it is something you should most certainly abide by while playing (if you're not having fun, why ARE you playing?), it does not apply to rules debates.

You purposefully break the rules of YMDC and spread downright false information refusing (!) to look up the rules.

And yes, I do hope a mod takes care of this.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
The MC rules don't say that at all actually

What they do say, is that the rider has a set of stats and the mount has a set of stats. You do not use the toughness or wounds of the mount but that of the rider. This joins them to make a single model. Now, in this instance you have two characters mounting one beast, each character with their own stats. The only thing you are given permission to negate is their wounds as they gain one more for beat on beast cav, not normal cav. Everything else remains the same. Which means you are trying to make them (the sisters) into one model. You do not have permission for this. When naestra gets on the eagle, they become one model. When Abraham gets on the eagle, they become one model. Now you are still in compliance with rules, but you are confused because how can two separate models be represented by one model... It's super easy, just like the monster mounts do, except that you have two characters instead of a character and a monster. So what happens when you have two characters together? In the rule book it actually states that the owning player gets tow choose who takes the wound, as long as wounds are distributed evenly when they are recieved. So what rules am I making up?

Quote the rules or leave the discussion. YMDC is used for RAW, not HYWPI. If riding an eagle, they become a single MC.

p. 105 tells you the rules about Monstrous Cavalry mounts and it tells you that "the whole model is treated as having the troop type monstrous cavalry and follows all the rules for both characters and monstrous cavalry models". It EXPLICITELY tells you that "It's worth noting that the rules for Ridden Monsters DO NOT apply to monstrous cavalry mounts - they are two distinct troop types". This exactly makes your entire post void as the BRB tells you exactly that you may NOT randomize any hits taken.

The rules for MC then tell you that the only difference to normal cavalry is that you gain Stomp, Monstrous Ranks and always use the highest amount of wounds of all profiles (p.83).

End of the story: put them on an eagle, they become a single MC, lose 3 wounds, everyone dies. Don't put them on an eagle, that'd be a huge waste of points.

Your turn, quote the rules.

First off, make me leave... get a MOD in here or whatever because you know I am quoting the rules you just want me to give you a page number, but the fact of the matter is, I dont have them memorized. Go ahead, go get one, I'll wait right here while you pull this schoolyard nonsense.

But I'll go ahead and take a whack it, naturally.

YMDC means exactly HWYPI, ya git! Thats the whole point of this forum, to argue until a resolution can be made. Your point of it being RAW vs. RAI is exactly that. You just dont want to accept the fact that you are playing a FANTASY GAME!!!!! where imagination is needed sometimes. You want to play rules as written? I bet you arent going to give someone crap if they dont have a citadel plastic forest, otherwise they cant use the forests for wood elves because guess what? Thats what rules as written say... are we done with the whole RAW? good... moving on!

Page 105 does not invalidate anything I said because you arent reading what I've read, you are extrapolating some SWAG and assuming thats what I mean. I am simply using ridden monsters as a relational point in order to understand the concept of having multiple models represented on one base. For a ridden monster model, you have two different stats representing one model... PLEASE DISREGARD AND USE YOUR IMAGINATION FOR A SECOND WHILE I EXPLAIN!!!! This is the relation... Just like you have a monster and a character represented on one model, you can also have two characters represented on one model... it is suuuuuuper easy and doesnt really take any amount of confusion.

Now you are going to say "show me where in the rules where it says to do that..." and I would tell you "that there is no explicit paragraph that describes having two characters on one mount", but there are rules on having two characters in one unit. That is described starting on page 96. It says that characters effectively become part of the unit and are indistinguishable apart from having seperate stats, as you cannot single characters out unless you have a rule that allows you to do so. But because of the cav rules we have to pressume that these characters are simply making a unit with each other represented by one model. *GASP* just like I illustrated earlier about ridden monsters. The difference being here is that the hits are not randomized at anything, because thats what it says on page 98 when shooting at characters when there are less than 5 models in a rank to protect them. The owning player gets to choose who takes wounds as long as the wounds are distributed evenly, meaning you cant put three wounds on one and then starting putting wounds on the other, you have to put one and one, two and two, three and three, so the model can take 5 wounds before it actually dies due to their special rule that brings them back.

those are the rules that I am quoting to explain my point... now you can broaden you mind and accept the fact that people are still going to play these characters even without a proper faq, or you can go ahead and continue to be narrow minded and squack like a parroting drone about "RAW!!! RAWWWW!!!"

polly want a cracker?

So. Your entire post is summed up as follows:

Imagination trumps rules.

That's not what this forum is about.

There are no rules for two characters on the same mount. Therefore we follow the rules for characters as MC. They are treated as a single model. As I said, the simplest thing is to make it a 4W T4 model. The bottom line is this. A cannon hits ALL of them.

You dont even know the rules yourself and you're telling me how it is? What do the rules for MC say about toughness and wounds? because I can tell you that you that you are wrong about everything you've said, mainly about the sisters becoming toughness 4. Where are you getting 4 wounds from? you arent combining the sisters, they are still two seperate profiles, two seperate targets represented on one model.

The rules for MC say that you use the highest profile. One. Not profiles. Profile.

Therefore. One unit. And as per the rules for MC, single target. As per the rules on P. 83, you use the cavalry rules. And the cavalry rules state that they're treated as a single model.

Allow me to emphasise, READ YOUR RULEBOOK.

Highest profile for wounds, not toughness...

perhaps you should read your rulebook.

And yes it does say to use both profiles... you dont just attack with the character or the mount you get to attack with both which is why they are there... perhaps you should read your rulebook...

Sure you treat them as one model, with multiple profiles, just like you would with a character riding a monster is one model but multiple profiles... read your rulebook...

I think we're done here

Highest profile for wounds, not toughness... 

perhaps you should read your rulebook. 

Seriously? Please read what's been written it will stop you repeating stuff that has already been proven incorrect

Guys just agree that you disagree. Someone is right, and someone is wrong. Just let it go and wait for a FAQ. There is no point in arguing.
The rules here should have been different due to the speciality of the characters. Changing their mount does make sense to change the rules of the character due to RAW. It does not make sense that on the dragon they have their rules and on the eagle they don't. It needed an explanation on how it will work.
Once again everything show us that They never play test what they release.

The term "agree to disagree" is used when each side has an opinion on an issue but can't come to a common result.

In this case, however, WarlordRob117 is purposefully spreading misinformation and downright wrong. This is YMDC where the aim is to get the right solution to a problem. Sometimes, there is no "right" and you agree to disagree.

In this case, however, there is only one correct answer:

If mounted on an eagle, they become one single model. No random wound allocation, no seperation of mount and rider - nothing.

I've already given page numbers that prove Warlord wrong. He is just arguing against the BRB.

I love people who just say their right about something they didnt create, meanwhile people are trying to give examples of educated ways of actually deciphering this mess...

At this rate, fantasy will be no better than 40K with you guys and your one-dimensional thinking.

I havent made anything up, I have quoted pages a rules to support my theory, but you just want to chalk it up to making up stuff as you go along (toughness 4 model with 4 wounds bahahaha)... Im not arguing against the BRB, I'm using the BRB to determine what this unit is in a way that is congruent with all the rules given.

You have only proven that you guys are so stuck on the literal definition that according to your RAW interpretation, you cant even play the character because there are no rules to support it... this is not true...

Sigh.

1. Read the forum rules.

2. Before posting in YMDC, read the Tennets of YMDC.

3. Check if you always used actual rule quotations to back your points up.

4. Check if you followed the tennets.

5. Click "Submit".

 WarlordRob117 wrote:


You have only proven that you guys are so stuck on the literal definition that according to your RAW interpretation[...]

Read this. If you don't understand basic concepts, don't post.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

A Few Definitions

For those who haven't seen these terms before.

Rules As Written - This refers to playing by the strict letter of the rules, which can lead to odd or counterintuitive situations.

How You Would Play It - This refers to taking small liberties with the rules to smooth out the odd or counterintuitive situations listed above.

...and now, again, for those who still look for the correct answer to the OP:

If riding an eagle, they become a single MC.

p. 105 tells you the rules about Monstrous Cavalry mounts and it tells you that "the whole model is treated as having the troop type monstrous cavalry and follows all the rules for both characters and monstrous cavalry models". It EXPLICITELY tells you that "It's worth noting that the rules for Ridden Monsters DO NOT apply to monstrous cavalry mounts - they are two distinct troop types". This exactly makes your entire post void as the BRB tells you exactly that you may NOT randomize any hits taken.

The rules for MC then tell you that the only difference to normal cavalry is that you gain Stomp, Monstrous Ranks and always use the highest amount of wounds of all profiles (p.83).

End of the story: put them on an eagle, they become a single MC, lose 3 wounds, everyone dies. Don't put them on an eagle, that'd be a huge waste of points.

It wouldn't be the first time GW created a rule that just simply does nothing in certain situations.

The worst part is that it does not even do nothing, it makes the characters a lot worse as it's pretty easy to take the eagle out and your enemy basically gets 2 dead characters for the price of one giant eagle...