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 Seaward wrote:

Does anyone actually believe the Battle Sisters would be capable of hunting down rogue Marine Chapters like GW says they did and do?

No. Not full strength ones.

Why? Just… why?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Why? Just… why?

Because I think a certain amount of genetically-enhanced super soldiers in power armor will beat the gak out of an equal amount of not-genetically-enhanced not-super soldiers in power armor.

Who spoke of equal amount?
And I am nto sure the gene-enhancement means much given the destructive power of the wargear involved, and the level of training from both side…

I've never seen a piece of fluff really expanded properly in terms of how the operation is carried out.

Any force could be sent to wipe out a Space Marine chapter, it's just about the numbers your willing or able to send.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Primarchs as anything other than legendary half-forgotten figure sucks. What are super-saiyans and kryptonians doing in my 40k? That just makes no sense. That is so not how flesh works!

Word. Just the other day I read in an Index Astartes article how Horus got laid low by some random infantryman's plasma gun.

And now in the novels they're resisting Titan-grade weaponry? Ehh.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:We could. In Ciaphas Cain, Hero of the Imperium, for instance. Cain just killing some chaos space marine lord.

But it's Cain, which touches on a whole other can of worms. I don't want flirting Sororitas in my 40k, and generally those books contradict a whole lot of Codex fluff.

Yes, I'm picky.

... you did make me curious, though. How'd that happen?

Seaward wrote:I have to ask; have you read any Black Library novels?

Yes, though I generally stick to short story anthologies, which tend to come across as notably more balanced. A Marine story I liked was, for example, Gav Thorpe's Know Thine Enemy from the Dark Imperium book. Maybe it's because in those stories, the authors can focus on an event rather than individual heroes who, of course, always need to survive.

Most of my bias stems from reading reviews and comments from other readers, such as Furyo Miko's synopsis of "Blood of Asaheim", which frankly sounded pretty atrocious.

I don't disagree that it might be simply the protagonist bonus and plot armour. But then the problem is that Marines are the protagonists 95% of the time, isn't it? That's what I meant with the limelight.

And even in the novels that do feature someone else beating up Marines, is it not true that they are commonly perceived as being "wrong" and how they kick off a gakstorm in various forums for specifically this portrayal? I remember people criticising the Taniths killing CSMs "just with their lasweapons" (as if this would not happen all the time in TT), and I remember the rage here on dakka at this WD novel excerpt where a Marine position was overrun by a bunch of cultists (around the time of the DA starter release).

Seaward wrote:I do, for one. There simply aren't enough Astartes to commit to every battle in the Imperium. You put the Astartes where you truly need to win, and win quickly, or where things are most dire, and the Guard can fight anywhere from those situations to comparatively irrelevant meat grinders. It has been ever thus.

Missing the point I made, in that I referred to one and the same battle.

"Space Marines are entrusted with all sorts of perilous missions, such as lightning raids behind enemy lines, infiltration attacks to capture vital positions, and tunnel fights in enemy held cities. They also undertake long voyages of planetary exploration and conquest on behalf of the Imperium, earmarking planets which are too well defended so that they can be attacked later with the support of the Imperial Guard."
- Inquisitor: Adeptus Astartes

"Often, a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In conflicts such as these, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe."
- 2E C:IG

It's not just dispersion and "not being around to be able to participate" - GW specifically drove the point home that Space Marines are the scalpel, not the hammer. This gave both the Astartes and the Imperial Guard a kind of synergy that just isn't as strong these days. These days, all too often it feels as if Marines are the hammer, too, and the Guard comes across as some sort of militia that has to try and fill in if the Real Heroes aren't around to save the day.

Not always, obviously, but you can get this impression when looking at most of the Marine stuff.

Seaward wrote:Because I think a certain amount of genetically-enhanced super soldiers in power armor will beat the gak out of an equal amount of not-genetically-enhanced not-super soldiers in power armor.

Meltaguns don't care for the Marines' genetic enhancement at all, and even with the standard bolter the difference is merely a single point on the To-Wound die.

The rest is up to the element of surprise, which would (or rather, should, if things go according to plan) result in the relative numerical advantage that Hybrid Son suggested, as well as "hopefully" (depending on who you're rooting for) prevent the Marines from closing in to melee distance, where they have a much bigger advantage over their opponent.

No doubt the above can be negated with the old argument that "rules =/= fluff", which is where I point to the previous comment regarding GW's fluff being crafted around the rules rather than independent of them, making it a matter of preference (again).
In other words: I believe you think so because you too are used more to the novel version of Marine resilience, and so prefer this to their relative vulnerability in the original material, which also directly affects how you perceive the combat prowess of the Adepta Sororitas. Which in turn kind of strengthens my argument regarding the expanded role of non-GW material in shaping people's expectations.

Medium of Death wrote:I've never seen a piece of fluff really expanded properly in terms of how the operation is carried out.

Yeah, it has only been ever mentioned in about three sources (as far as I'm aware), and the only one that actually explained how it is conducted was the little-known Citadel Journal.

In short, it's a surprise strike aimed at the Chapter's leadership and geneseed repositories to "disable the organisation from the top down", with specially trained Battle Sisters deep-striking directly into the Fortress-Monastery using drop pods and jump packs. Some of the drop pods are transporting gun emplacements (usually multimeltas) instead of troops.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
They shouldn't be smacking Bloodthirsters around, that'd be OTT, but if they cut down a dozen Guardsmen with each bolter salvo while the flashlight return fire barely tickles the PA, then that is just one way the power balance is designed (And it's not like the Guard don't have the numbers to compensate)

And what about, say, Carnifex? Do Carnifex cut down a dozen marines with every swing, while the return attacks just bounce of their carapace? Or maybe the other way around?

 Ashiraya wrote:
The very same heroism that is what makes the IG faction stand out from generic military faction #172389365327856587254, and the same heroism that becomes entirely uninteresting once it becomes expected.

I am not sure how having every IG regiment feel like Vostroyans where the only known tactics are “Send in the next wave” is what would make the faction very bland and limited.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Lucky, then, that chapters do not stand around and get shot by Titan legions, eh?

Do not pretend to miss my point. You like a huge difference in power between marines and everything less powerful than marines, but for stuff that is obviously stronger than a marine (carnifex, genestealer, meganob, harlequin, …), do you still enjoy such a skewed power level? Never saw you mention it, except maybe to pretend the marine was actually stronger.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I agree that shrugging off Titan attacks is in Primarch territory- above Astartes level.

Primarchs as anything other than legendary half-forgotten figure sucks. What are super-saiyans and kryptonians doing in my 40k? That just makes no sense. That is so not how flesh works!

Primarchs being so overpowered is beyond our current science and logic to comprehend. That is not a problem to me.

Carnifex VS Marine? Carnifex is undoubtedly much stronger and tougher. The Marine is faster and can evade it to a degree, but if he needs to kill it it will be difficult without heavier (Or special, e.g plasma) weaponry. And even if he does the Carnifex is still tough to kill.

Genestealers are lightning-fast and hit hard but are very fragile compared to Marines. A difficult fight for both.

Meganobs are held back by being protected by mere steel even if it is lots of it, and the fact that they have a nice 'shoot me here' spot that is the head.

Plus, they are really, really slow. Once in melee the advantage lies with the Meganob, however.

I estimate a Nob and a Marine to be on par. The Nob is larger which has its advantages (Can cut down more Guardsmen with each sweep. ) but the Marine is more resistant to fire thanks to better armour.

Harlequins are... A perfect example of why Eldar are OP as well. It does not matter if they only have, in context, marginally better resilience than a Guardsman. It does not matter because you won't see them at all / they are so fast so you can't raise your gun before you are vivisected / similar.

I imagine Aspect Warriors and Space Marines to be roughly on par.

That Guardsmen generally just win by literally drowning the foe in expendable soldiers does not mean that exceptions do not exist, but such an unimaginably grimdark faction makes perfect growing ground for the true heroes.


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Lynata wrote:

Seaward wrote:Because I think a certain amount of genetically-enhanced super soldiers in power armor will beat the gak out of an equal amount of not-genetically-enhanced not-super soldiers in power armor.

Meltaguns don't care for the Marines' genetic enhancement at all, and even with the standard bolter the difference is merely a single point on the To-Wound die.

You really should not use game mechanics in a background-related discussion. Otherwise, feel free to explain how the difference between hitting a Guardsman and hitting Castellan Crowe for a Daemon Prince is entirely equivalent, and their chance of hitting back is 'one point on the Tp-Hit die.' Or a Space Marine Bike outrunning a Crimson Hunter, or...

The 40k game is designed arcade-style. You are supposed to be able to put up two reasonably equally sized armies of any army and then start blowing stuff up. Game mechanics should not be taken further than that. It breaks incredibly fast if you do.

 Lynata wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:I've never seen a piece of fluff really expanded properly in terms of how the operation is carried out.

Yeah, it has only been ever mentioned in about three sources (as far as I'm aware), and the only one that actually explained how it is conducted was the little-known Citadel Journal.

In short, it's a surprise strike aimed at the Chapter's leadership and geneseed repositories to "disable the organisation from the top down", with specially trained Battle Sisters deep-striking directly into the Fortress-Monastery using drop pods and jump packs. Some of the drop pods are transporting gun emplacements (usually multimeltas) instead of troops.

I think that sounds like a fairly plausible solution as most chapters worlds will be defended heavily but have minimal Astartes present.

Obviously that particular tactic depends on which Chapter they are fighting. It obviously wouldn't work on Ultramar for example.

It's all swings and roundabouts and very situation dependent.

I think it makes sense for some Primarchs to be able to shrug off insane levels of firepower through their Psychic abilities.

 Lynata wrote:
Just the other day I read in an Index Astartes article how Horus got laid low by some random infantryman's plasma gun.

They got their superpowers quite early. Basically when GW introduced the fact many of them crashed on the planet without any kind of protection but the kinetic shock did not do them any damage.

 Lynata wrote:
... you did make me curious, though. How'd that happen?

It did not happen yet, but I would definitely expect it to happen at one time. My point was that it could happen in Black Library novel that have non-Space Marine protagonist, especially if they are going on full badass mode.

 Lynata wrote:
But then the problem is that Marines are the protagonists 95% of the time, isn't it? That's what I meant with the limelight.

Which is why I say the bias comes from the studio before anything else. Change the studio mindset, get them to think of the marine as just one faction among many, and everything will follow.

 Lynata wrote:
GW specifically drove the point home that Space Marines are the scalpel, not the hammer. This gave both the Astartes and the Imperial Guard a kind of synergy that just isn't as strong these days. These days, all too often it feels as if Marines are the hammer, too, and the Guard comes across as some sort of militia that has to try and fill in if the Real Heroes aren't around to save the day.

A one thousand individual strong scalpel on 40k's scale is silly. A one thousand individual strong hammer on 40k's scale is downright herpy derpy .


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 Ashiraya wrote:
Carnifex VS Marine? Carnifex is undoubtedly much stronger and tougher. The Marine is faster and can evade it to a degree, but if he needs to kill it it will be difficult without heavier (Or special, e.g plasma) weaponry. And even if he does the Carnifex is still tough to kill.

See, that is the perfect example. For you, a Carnifex will be difficult to kill for a marine. Would you say that a marine will be difficult to kill for a guardsman? No, you would say that the marine would roflstomp a dozen of guardmen in mere seconds without even thinking about it on a bad day for breakfast.
Were is your self-professed love for “over the top” and “incredible power scaling” now ?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Genestealers are lightning-fast and hit hard but are very fragile compared to Marines. A difficult fight for both.

Meganobs are held back by being protected by mere steel even if it is lots of it, and the fact that they have a nice 'shoot me here' spot that is the head.

Plus, they are really, really slow. Once in melee the advantage lies with the Meganob, however.

I estimate a Nob and a Marine to be on par. The Nob is larger which has its advantages (Can cut down more Guardsmen with each sweep. ) but the Marine is more resistant to fire thanks to better armour.

Harlequins are... A perfect example of why Eldar are OP as well. It does not matter if they only have, in context, marginally better resilience than a Guardsman. It does not matter because you won't see them at all / they are so fast so you can't raise your gun before you are vivisected / similar.

I imagine Aspect Warriors and Space Marines to be roughly on par.

So, where do I need to go to find stuff capable of cutting down a dozen marines in mere seconds while the retaliation from the marines barely tickles it? Avatar of Khaine? Greater Daemon? Primarchs (which are just basically Marine Alpha, so they do not even really count here)? Titans?
All the challenge I provided, you did not even consider those big enough to consider it as anything else than a one on one fight! Quite telling.

Now you are twisting my words. It seems you just want me to say 'X kills SM really fast.' What'd that prove?

There are things that can do that. Like Avatars (Maybe not GWs tiny Avatar, but there are bigger ones), Titans, Primarchs... And Greater Daemons, yuup.

The reason SM pwn IG more than Carnies pwn SM is that Marines are the fastest of the three. False equivalence. Bring something like a Stormblade and they fold pretty fast.

Or Wraithguard!

Or tanks.

Ashiraya wrote:You really should not use game mechanics in a background-related discussion. Otherwise, feel free to explain how the difference between hitting a Guardsman and hitting Castellan Crowe for a Daemon Prince is entirely equivalent, and their chance of hitting back is 'one point on the Tp-Hit die.'

Uh, "Daemon Princes rule"?

I'm not denying that the TT is an abstraction - that much is obvious. Abstraction also means that it is derived from specification, though, rather than being completely random, so we can totally make comparisons about what is roughly equal, what is better/worse, and what is worlds apart.

If GW wanted Marines to be more powerful in the TT, like some people often claim would be "fluffy", they just had to compensate resilience with a higher points cost like they also did with so many other units.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:They got their superpowers quite early. Basically when GW introduced the fact many of them crashed on the planet without any kind of protection but the kinetic shock did not do them any damage.

Nah, that's just one of the urban rumours propagated within the fandom (similar to the "it's all canon") where someone read the Index Astartes and either failed to read between the lines and discern truth from legend, or missed a couple rather important details in some of the articles. And everyone else just swallowed it without checking the source. To address your example:

"This all changed when one day the guards on the walls of Callax, the largest remaining factory-fortress, saw a meteor descend from the clouds, trailing fire across the sky before impacting barely a mile from the fortress walls. Though little manpower could be spared, the ruling Executive of Callax sent a handful of scouts to investigate the impact site, hoping for some evidence of human survivors on other worlds. What they found became legend. In the centre of the crater, surrounded by the white-hot remains of a stasis capsule, was a child, barely more than a baby."
- WD #255 : Index Astartes, the Emperor's Children

It is of note that this was one of the very, very few articles that actually delivered a more scientific explanation of the Primarch's delivery - in most others you just have some hearsay about "falling stars" or how they are mysteriously found at location X. Nevertheless, the IA articles are quite clear in most of their contents being legend and myth of dubious accuracy, which fits if you consider not only the time that has elapsed between M31 and M41 but also the tech-level of most worlds where the Primarchs were found. I don't think it's a coincidence that the people who were able to identify Fulgrim's "comet" as an apparently shielded stasis capsule were living on a world that actually knew technology, as opposed to, say, the primitive clans of Medusa or the medieval theocracy on Colchis. The IA article on the Emperor's Children even goes so far as to deliberately point holes the size of an Emperor-class Battlecruiser into the Space Wolves' sagas just to drive the point home that this stuff is meant to conflict.

So it seems that what happened was that a whole lot of readers missed GW's "it's a legend" disclaimer (you know, like the one in the 6E core rulebook's page on the Primarchs), instead taking everything at face value. Because stuff like Ferrus Manus carrying a mountain(!) across an ocean(!!) apparently isn't obvious enough to be taken as a hint.

Hell, Alpharius was almost gunned down by Horus and a bunch of bolter-armed deckmen on a cruiser bridge (which btw fits nicely to the eventual fate of Rogal Dorn).

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:It did not happen yet, [...]

A-ha!

(addendum: yes, maybe it will happen some day, but still - see the comment on how the fandom as a whole reacts to such things)

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Which is why I say the bias comes from the studio before anything else. Change the studio mindset, get them to think of the marine as just one faction among many, and everything will follow.

With bias you mean less in terms of power, but more representation? And that this affects public perception?

Hmm. Yes, maybe, but I have a feeling it may be too late to change now. The majority seems to have adopted this new idea of Marines, and I have a feeling any product that aims to push another faction to the same level will earn hostility - or rather, will be ridiculed as being "unfluffy" and receive a stigma like Mr. Goto's novels.

Example? Just ask people what they think about the Daemonifuge comics.

 Lynata wrote:
A-ha!

He did however best quite easily a khornate marine in close combat, all the while actually trash-talking him. Which is pretty badass.

 Lynata wrote:
With bias you mean less in terms of power, but more representation? And that this affects public perception?

Yes. They are the “main protagonist”, and everything revolves around them. See, for instance, I am also a member of Warhammer Forum, a French-speaking forum on both WFB and 40k. So, when they decided to create an official army for the forum, what did they decide to do? A specific chapter, of course! Even though everyone knows that to accurately represent a forum, you would need orks. And preferably WFB ones, because they have animosity test and spend their time fighting each other if they fail it .
Basically, it is, and has been for decades, marine by default.
So, of course all the derivative material will focus on marines too, and therefore they get plot armor, and so on.

 Lynata wrote:
Example? Just ask people what they think about the Daemonifuge comics.

I remember not liking it much actually, and I am far, far away from some space marines fanboy . It was a long time ago, though.


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 Ashiraya wrote:
There are things that can do that. Like Avatars (Maybe not GWs tiny Avatar, but there are bigger ones)[…]Or Wraithguard!

“Tiny avatar” have trouble dealing with marines, while Wraithguard will make them fold pretty fast?
I am confused .

 Lynata wrote:

I'm not denying that the TT is an abstraction - that much is obvious. Abstraction also means that it is derived from specification, though, rather than being completely random, so we can totally make comparisons about what is roughly equal, what is better/worse, and what is worlds apart.

Feel free to explain why a Company Commander has 3 wounds while a Brotherhood Champion has one. That is not an abstraction, that is 'feth logic and background, we have no idea of how to balance things but this looks ok.'

Of course it is not random, but it still does not have to be anything you can judge background from.

Pray tell, how can a Space Marine Captain, without any armour, survive two point-blank Autocannon shells, any one of which would instantly kill previously mentioned Company Commander and reduce him to scattered barely recognisable (If that) bodyparts on the floor?

You can argue abstraction as much as you wish, but as soon as the abstraction stops being logical and calculatable, it no longer holds any weight in these arguments.

 Melissia wrote:
Or tanks.

Depends on what tanks.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

“Tiny avatar” have trouble dealing with marines, while Wraithguard will make them fold pretty fast?
I am confused .

Not saying it will have great difficulty killing one, it just lacks the size and reach to cut down many at a time. Its ranged weapon does not seem to have that impressive a rate-of-fire.

A nice hit from a Wraithcannon will probably destroy anything short of a superheavy, so there's that.

What's with people suddenly trying to convince me 'Look how easy they die kekekekekeke' suddenly as well as trying to make me say so?

I certainly don't see people saying 'Yeah that kills stormtroopers really easy, and that too, and that as well, and boy what that gun would oneshot a nob'

Antibandwagon fallacy or what?

 Lynata wrote:
Yes, though I generally stick to short story anthologies, which tend to come across as notably more balanced. A Marine story I liked was, for example, Gav Thorpe's Know Thine Enemy from the Dark Imperium book. Maybe it's because in those stories, the authors can focus on an event rather than individual heroes who, of course, always need to survive.

Well, I recommend branching out. If you want to see Astartes die, go with Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

I don't disagree that it might be simply the protagonist bonus and plot armour. But then the problem is that Marines are the protagonists 95% of the time, isn't it? That's what I meant with the limelight.

Depends. Space Marines remain my favorite faction, so I'm okay with them getting the limelight (which they share with IG). Sisters fans certainly have grounds to be disappointed with Black Library, though.

And even in the novels that do feature someone else beating up Marines, is it not true that they are commonly perceived as being "wrong" and how they kick off a gakstorm in various forums for specifically this portrayal? I remember people criticising the Taniths killing CSMs "just with their lasweapons" (as if this would not happen all the time in TT), and I remember the rage here on dakka at this WD novel excerpt where a Marine position was overrun by a bunch of cultists (around the time of the DA starter release).

Depends. The scene involving the Tanith First & Only was, indeed, egregious, as it wasn't just CSMs, it was CSM Terminators, and it was basically the ewoks killing storm troopers on Endor in terms of its ridiculousness. No idea on the second one.

A platoon of Guard/cultists/whatever will get their butts kicked by a squad of Space Marines. I'm fine with that balance. Superhumanity has benefits.

It's not just dispersion and "not being around to be able to participate" - GW specifically drove the point home that Space Marines are the scalpel, not the hammer. This gave both the Astartes and the Imperial Guard a kind of synergy that just isn't as strong these days. These days, all too often it feels as if Marines are the hammer, too, and the Guard comes across as some sort of militia that has to try and fill in if the Real Heroes aren't around to save the day.

Not always, obviously, but you can get this impression when looking at most of the Marine stuff.

Again, I think you just need to read some better stuff. Go try out Cadian Blood. You'll thank me for it. It's a sausage party, but if you push through that, it's a gem of a novel.

That said, I do think the Astartes are capable of being the hammer when they wish to be. A chapter bringing its entire force to bear is exceedingly rare, but it would definitely qualify as a hammer. Most often, though, they don't deploy in those numbers.

In other words: I believe you think so because you too are used more to the novel version of Marine resilience, and so prefer this to their relative vulnerability in the original material, which also directly affects how you perceive the combat prowess of the Adepta Sororitas. Which in turn kind of strengthens my argument regarding the expanded role of non-GW material in shaping people's expectations.

Maybe. I dunno. I know Marines from 5ED on, so whatever that would be.

Am I not giving the Sisters of Battle enough credit? Quite possibly.

Ashiraya wrote:Feel free to explain why a Company Commander has 3 wounds while a Brotherhood Champion has one.

Willpower and experience or relic wargear, allowing such characters to push their bodies to even greater heights of prowess and temporarily ignore injuries that would see lesser warriors go to ground, or simply being better protected due to their unique equipment. Or a mixture of all. We are talking about remarkable individuals here, after all.

It's just yet another reflection of how many factors all come together in the simple question of "does it die". Toughness is one, Wounds are another, and then there are countless special rules such as FNP. Wounds kind of work like a bonus to Toughness, if you will. An abstracted bonus. What matters is that they still don't shrug off this damage - a character with 2+ Wounds is just as hurt as one with a single Wound if hit by the same weapon, they simply don't lie down. We have seen instances of this in the real world.

The tabletop also has the advantage that it's the one and only place where we actually have crystal-clear numbers from a product aimed at representing every faction in a fair environment, thus allowing a direct comparison, rather than having to rely on intentionally conflicting accounts of fluff that especially in the case of novels tend to have heroes with plot armour. So, I know what I'd consider a source more likely to reflect each party in a fair way. And in my opinion it also ties in better with GW's own fluff and its other games, so I benefit from a greater consistency.

Ashiraya wrote:Pray tell, how can a Space Marine Captain, without any armour, survive two point-blank Autocannon shells, any one of which would instantly kill previously mentioned Company Commander and reduce him to scattered barely recognisable (If that) bodyparts on the floor?

I don't think there actually is a naked Space Marine Captain represented in the Tabletop. But are you referring to Eternal Warrior or something?
Either way, see above. Though I don't disagree that this approach may be flawed when applied to Characters. Which is why I don't do it. I'm comparing "Space Marines" and "Guardsmen" etc, as well as their weapons.

On a sidenote, Company Commander? Do you mean a Company Champion, or did I miss something? I thought Marine companies were commanded by a Captain. oO


Seaward: That was a very respectfully written way of saying you still disagree; at least for the way you worded it I have to tip my imaginary hat.

And yes, I suppose it's possible that I'm not giving BL enough credit. A result of previous experiences with some of its books - once bitten, twice shy, or whatever. Maybe some day I'll give it another try, although it'd have to be about something that actually interests me.

I've currently started reading Battletech again, and all I can think of when doing a comparison is "why can't 40k be more like this" when it comes to the inclusion of different factions as well as minorities and genders, but mostly about tragic fates, character flaws, and Bad Things Happening. It just seems ... hmm, more mature? Which is a funny thing to say, considering how grimdark 40k is at its core, even though a lot of stuff (such as Astartes suicide squads) is no longer mentioned these days.

You did just remind me that I had intended to pick up that Gaius Point short story from ADB, though ...

 Lynata wrote:
But are you referring to Eternal Warrior or something?

Just T4 not being ID by T6/7 while T3 is, I guess. Basically, you are speaking about the numerical values in the profile, she is talking about all the rule artifact that makes no particular sense.

 Lynata wrote:

Either way, see above. Though I don't disagree that this approach may be flawed when applied to Characters. Which is why I don't do it. I'm comparing "Space Marines" and "Guardsmen" etc, as well as their weapons.

Exactly. A Company Commander is the dude at the front here.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Imperial-Guard-Cadian-Command-Squad

I do not see why his 'relic wargear' would justify him shrugging off two attacks that would kill a Grey Knight Brotherhood Champion (Say, Power Axe strikes). Or how his 'willpower' prevents him from being blown to pieces by a massive caliber explosive shell.

Lynata wrote:The tabletop also has the advantage that it's the one and only place where we actually have crystal-clear numbers from a product aimed at representing every faction in a fair environment, thus allowing a direct comparison, rather than having to rely on intentionally conflicting accounts of fluff that especially in the case of novels tend to have heroes with plot armour. So, I know what I'd consider a source more likely to reflect each party in a fair way. And in my opinion it also ties in better with GW's own fluff and its other games, so I benefit from a greater consistency.

But... Tabletop is just so stupid once you try to make sense of it. Why do Guardsmen veterans gain +1 BS over their non-veteran counterparts while Sternguard don't? Why does Straken gain the protection equivalance of Power Armour, the toughness of a Space Marine, and the strength of a Dreadknight just by having a bionic arm? If you're going to say 'better quality', I can't see how that would be justified. I don't think anyone in the Imperium short of the Custodes get higher quality wargear than the Grey Knights. Nobody else with bionics gets buffed like crazy from it like Straken is. He is, for all intents and purposes, statlined because GW thought IG needed a melee powerhouse (To some degree) and logic has no place in their reasoning.

Oh, it took me several second to understand it was you, Ashi, and I only did because I recognized the sig!
You should update that part :
“The avatar is Ashiraya, my WoW OC.”, since it is not true anymore .

The commander has more plot armor.
If I recall correctly, Straken has half his body as bionics, not just an arm. You would notice that, coincidentally, the iron hands, which are famous for using lots of bionics, have the same thoughness as Straken, the same armor save, and even a free 6+ FNP on top of it. So, it make sense. The only difference is that Staken got some kind of power fist bionic, because he rocks, like that.

Ashiraya wrote:A Company Commander is the dude at the front here.
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Imperial-Guard-Cadian-Command-Squad

I do not see why his 'relic wargear' would justify him shrugging off two attacks that would kill a Grey Knight Brotherhood Champion (Say, Power Axe strikes). Or how his 'willpower' prevents him from being blown to pieces by a massive caliber explosive shell.

Ohh, Imperial Guard! Sorry, was assuming Space Marines there for a moment.

You're assuming that all those attacks actually hit a vital area. Abstraction of the tabletop includes soldiers being neutralised by simple proximity - for example, just because someone is dropped by a battle cannon shell doesn't mean he got headshot by it. He could've simply stood to close to the explosion. This works nicely as a cop-out for seemingly weird stuff like Characters having multiple Wounds, even though they ought to be little better than their rank-and-file peers. "Plot armour", if you will, just as Hybrid Son mentioned.

And as I said, Characters =/= the average soldier. I am comparing "Space Marines", "Guardsmen", "Battle Sisters", etc by their average troops, not exceptional individuals. See page 63 of the 6E Rulebook.
Although Characters can indeed be an example of how far exceptional individuals of a faction may get!

So, you cherrypick while ignoring the holes in the ruleset?

The ruleset is like a swiss cheese...

I think it is said, 'when luck becomes reliable, it's called 'skill''.

I said I'm comparing Armies, not Characters.

If that's cherrypicking for you, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I still think it's a far better method to gauge relative strengths than relying on Codex myths and plot-armoured novel heroics.

 Lynata wrote:
I said I'm comparing Armies, not Characters.

If that's cherrypicking for you, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I still think it's a far better method to gauge relative strengths than relying on Codex myths and plot-armoured novel heroics.

It gets just as implausible when we see Guardsmen Sergeants with more attacks than Assault Marines.

Ashiraya wrote:It gets just as implausible when we see Guardsmen Sergeants with more attacks than Assault Marines.

Veterancy/experience allowing the warrior to make use of more opportunities to engage their target. Just like with the Assault Marine Sergeant and his troops.
You have to remember that in the tabletop, a single turn isn't just 1 second or so.

And technically, by GW's terminology Sergeants are Characters, too.

The idea that a guardsmen sergeant would have more veterancy and experience than an assault marine is pretty out there. In order to even reach assault marine status in a chapter you have to have years to decades of experience and training as a scout marine, and then a Devastator, before getting promoted to an assault marine. And that's on top of the psycho-indoctrination and such that literally programs battlefield tactics into a marine's brain.

If you're going to go by a law of averages, very, very few guardsmen of sergeant rank and below are going to have more practical knowledge of combat than a space marine.

The table-top is not a reliable indication of anything. Game balance is too much of a priority over fluff for any kind of abstraction to be meaningful.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The idea that a guardsmen sergeant would have more veterancy and experience than an assault marine is pretty out there. In order to even reach assault marine status in a chapter you have to have years to decades of experience and training as a scout marine, and then a Devastator, before getting promoted to an assault marine. And that's on top of the psycho-indoctrination and such that literally programs battlefield tactics into a marine's brain.

If you're going to go by a law of averages, very, very few guardsmen of sergeant rank and below are going to have more practical knowledge of combat than a space marine.

The table-top is not a reliable indication of anything. Game balance is too much of a priority over fluff for any kind of abstraction to be meaningful.

Exactly.

The reason the Sergeant has +1 A is because of the arbitrary 'if it is sergeant equivalent, it must have +1A' thinking of GW.

It makes no sense whatsoever.

BlaxicanX wrote:The idea that a guardsmen sergeant would have more veterancy and experience than an assault marine is pretty out there. In order to even reach assault marine status in a chapter you have to have years to decades of experience and training as a scout marine, and then a Devastator, before getting promoted to an assault marine.

But that's the thing, isn't it? All those years of experience at operating a sniper rifle or a heavy bolter don't necessarily make you a better close combat fighter. Those warriors literally drop from one class and style of fighting into another, all part of a training course intended to make them proficient at all, but masters of none.

And maybe that's why Veteran SM all have 2 Attacks instead of just their Sergeant.

BlaxicanX wrote:The table-top is not a reliable indication of anything. Game balance is too much of a priority over fluff for any kind of abstraction to be meaningful.

So what you're saying is the fluff is a more reliable indication? Which fluff exactly, then, of the over 9000 versions we can choose from?

I personally would LOVE a Black Crusade style game; you are the Chaos Space Marine, get to Chaosing.

 Lynata wrote:
But that's the thing, isn't it? All those years of experience at operating a sniper rifle or a heavy bolter don't necessarily make you a better close combat fighter. Those warriors literally drop from one class and style of fighting into another, all part of a training course intended to make them proficient at all, but masters of none.

Ah, you mean the same way Batman is always beaten up by thugs because he focuses on so many more things than just fist fighting unlike the thugs?

Didn't Batman spend a good portion of his life training to be an excellent fighter? And isn't your typical gangster some punk off the street who's only training is "Hit this with a stick and we'll pay you"?

It's a bad comparison, TBH.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Ah, you mean the same way Batman is always beaten up by thugs because he focuses on so many more things than just fist fighting unlike the thugs?

Comparison with another fictional character (wait, no, scratch that. Batman is not a character, it is a franchise.) from another fictional setting that makes no sense whatsoever as an argument?