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Amazingly this happens several times a day in Europe yet our tyrannical overlords refuse to allow us means of defending our lunch. VOTE UKIP.

 Ahtman wrote:
What is important to remember is that no violent crime has ever happened in a place where there are firearms.

I can honsetly say I've never heard of a robbery at an M1 Tank firing range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Amazingly this happens several times a day in Europe yet our tyrannical overlords refuse to allow us means of defending our lunch. VOTE UKIP.

I've seen British food. I can understand. Really good barbeque, however, is worth killing over.

Funny, but anti gun people think whenever someone flagrantly ignores gun laws and commits crimes with guns, despite gun free zones

that should be ignored.

The only idea ever proffered up is that OBS its not that the laws were uslesss, its that we didnt have ENOUGH of them...

The answer to crooks breaking existing gun laws, is always more gun laws.

holy cow i see the light! its so obvious now!

the "gun free zone" signs need to have an additional sign, in picto language for the illiterate, that says "gun free zone, REALLY WE MEAN IT!! THIS MEANS YOU!!!"

 Ouze wrote:
There was a picture of some guys at Chipotle that were having burritos with their AR-15s at the table, which prompted the Chipotle firearm ban (mealy mouthed as it was). Seeing this picture made me sort of groan, and think - what attention-whoring a-holes.

But I thought 20,000 people were required to die every time more than one non-government operated firearm converges? It's impossible to have that many guns in one area without someone going on a spree

 sing your life wrote:
Why would you want bring guns into a restaurant anyway?

Wait, you don't fire a round into the ceiling in Britain if the service is slow? How will get that coffee to get to you hot and steaming then?

I guess I look at this, and I wonder what good would have occured if the sign wasn't there?

Odds are, nobody would have had a gun anyway, and the robbers came in through the back.

So, the best case scenario was that somebody had a gun, and was able to stop the theft without anybody (aside from the robbers) getting shot.

The worst case scenario is that it devovles into a shootout, and bystanders get hurt.

As a business owner, I'd take the loss of a whatever was in the till that night, and a few minor injuries, over a gunfight in my kitchen.

Oddly, the owner of this restaurant is apparently a fairly proiminent anti-gun individual:

http://www.beaufortobserver.net/Articles-NEWS-and-COMMENTARY-c-2014-05-20-272838.112112-The-Pit-restaurant-leaves-its-staff-and-patrons-defenseless-in-armed-robbery.html

I carry wherever I go. Just this past week where I live a robbery was stopped because one of the customers had a gun. (military vet, too!)
I know in England they have a hard time understanding this because of a cultural difference that's larger than what is apparent.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
What is important to remember is that no violent crime has ever happened in a place where there are firearms.

I can honsetly say I've never heard of a robbery at an M1 Tank firing range.

Well, a guy did steal a tank once.




In his defense, there were no "Tank free zone" signs up, like, anywhere.

 Frazzled wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Why would you want bring guns into a restaurant anyway?

Wait, you don't fire a round into the ceiling in Britain if the service is slow? How will get that coffee to get to you hot and steaming then?

And the silverware is chained to the table there so you can't do that slow service waitress stab

 sing your life wrote:
Why would you want bring guns into a restaurant anyway?

"Shoot your own steer" -- hoofed version of that kind of restaurant where you get to pick out which lobster you want to eat.

This way it's educational for the children too -- fun for the whole family !

Gee, a restaurant got robbed? That happens nearly never!

 Ouze wrote:
There are in excess of 350,000 robberies per year in this country. As private no-guns-allowed signs are fairly uncommon, I posit to you that statistically, a great majority of these robberies occurred in locations where firearms were allowed on the premises. As such, the thrust of this post is sort of flawed on it's face.

I hold that business owners have the right to decide whether or not they allow firearms on their property, and that allowing guns isn't some kind of magic goddamn charm that prevents all crime, and that forbidding them doesn't magically invite crime, either. Should we have a thread for every robbery that occurs when firearms are allowed? 958 posts a day with the same title: "Good guys with guns fail to stop bad guys with guns"?

I'm not picking on you... but, genuinely curious.

But I'm not sure if that's an apt comparison.

How would you feel having that same sign at your home?

I know you wouldn't do it... but, think about it. What's your instinctual/gut response?

Conversely, how do you think a buglar would feel about targeting a home, that has the home security sign on it's lawn? What's his likely response?

 whembly wrote:
I'm not picking on you... but, genuinely curious.

But I'm not sure if that's an apt comparison.

How would you feel having that same sign at your home?

I know you wouldn't do it... but, think about it. What's your instinctual/gut response?

Conversely, how do you think a buglar would feel about targeting a home, that has the home security sign on it's lawn? What's his likely response?

Well, posting signs like that is a business decision. Based on what we've heard about the neighborhood and the business owners, that sign isn't about guns. Well it is, but it's mostly saying "no right wing rednecks."

Gun free zones aren't there to make owners feel safer. They are there to make customers feel safer.

 Polonius wrote:

 whembly wrote:
I'm not picking on you... but, genuinely curious.

But I'm not sure if that's an apt comparison.

How would you feel having that same sign at your home?

I know you wouldn't do it... but, think about it. What's your instinctual/gut response?

Conversely, how do you think a buglar would feel about targeting a home, that has the home security sign on it's lawn? What's his likely response?

Well, posting signs like that is a business decision. Based on what we've heard about the neighborhood and the business owners, that sign isn't about guns. Well it is, but it's mostly saying "no right wing rednecks."

Gun free zones aren't there to make owners feel safer. They are there to make customers feel safer.

That's a fair point... but, that wasn't my question.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
What is important to remember is that no violent crime has ever happened in a place where there are firearms.

I can honsetly say I've never heard of a robbery at an M1 Tank firing range.

I've SEEN robberies on live/hot M1 firing ranges.

At Ft Hood there were some dudes in hopped up 4X4s that would cruise out onto a range and steal the generators that are used to power the target lift devices. The generators are only there when the ranges are in use. Crazy fethers would come zooming out of the impact area a couple of KMs down range, load up as you watched, then haul ass away. Range Control would shut down the range/declare a cease fire when they came zooming out. You were not allowed to engage them (yes, I asked for permission. I figured a 120mm SABOT through an engine block would put an end to that silliness, and a few hundred rounds of COAX zipping through the area would ensure no one tried to get away on foot.)

 whembly wrote:
That's a fair point... but, that wasn't my question.

You're question was sophistry and you know it.

Of course you wouldn't post that at your home. Homes are different from businesses. I wouldn't install a commerical grade deep fat frier in my home either.

 whembly wrote:
[I'm not picking on you... but, genuinely curious.

But I'm not sure if that's an apt comparison.

How would you feel having that same sign at your home?

I know you wouldn't do it... but, think about it. What's your instinctual/gut response?

Conversely, how do you think a buglar would feel about targeting a home, that has the home security sign on it's lawn? What's his likely response?

Polonius beat me to it, but a home is not akin to a business. In a business, I'd be concerned with some moron having a negligent discharge (happens constantly in walmart, which probably doesn't surprise you). I'd probably rather lose the register cash then face the liability of the wild west breaking out over what's probably less cash than the value of an iphone, in this day of debit cards. I don't generally agree with lethal force to protect property.

In my house, it's different. I have to presume that it's a home invasion rather than a simple robbery, my family would be in mortal danger, and I would respond accordingly as my state's castle doctrine allows.

 CptJake wrote:
[You were not allowed to engage them (yes, I asked for permission. I figured a 120mm SABOT through an engine block would put an end to that silliness, and a few hundred rounds of COAX zipping through the area would ensure no one tried to get away on foot.)

Thanks, Obama.

In a just world, we would universally would accept the legal defense of "Well, looks like they brought a 4x4 to a tank fight".

 Polonius wrote:

 whembly wrote:
That's a fair point... but, that wasn't my question.

You're question was sophistry and you know it.

I disagree.

Of course you wouldn't post that at your home. Homes are different from businesses.

Well... you spend roughly a 1/3 of your life at work. Point being... if you feel strongly about a sign having the sort impact you want, then why not post it at your home?

I wouldn't install a commerical grade deep fat frier in my home either.

Irrelevant. But, I so would fething love to have that at my home.

Then, I'd post pics here on dakka to make d-usa jealous of my culinary skills.

 CptJake wrote:
Knowing it was gun free for customers and employees allowed the perps the freedom to not have to shoot any potentially armed customers and employees. It made it a kinder and gentler armed robbery. Had the perps been all nervous about potentially facing armed opposition they would have been more likely to shoot folks. It also prevented poor peace loving BBQ eating customers from accidentally being capped when the Gun Nut customer pulled out his fully automatic assault revolver and shot innocents in the attempt to be Rambo.

(am I doing it right?)

That felt just like a post from DemocratUnderground, so yes you did it perfectly.

I also wouldn't have a no guns allowed sign on my private business, if I ran one - but I respect the right of business owners to decide for themselves. So, I'm arguing for a point that's not even my personal preference.

 CptJake wrote:
Knowing it was gun free for customers and employees allowed the perps the freedom to not have to shoot any potentially armed customers and employees. It made it a kinder and gentler armed robbery. Had the perps been all nervous about potentially facing armed opposition they would have been more likely to shoot folks. It also prevented poor peace loving BBQ eating customers from accidentally being capped when the Gun Nut customer pulled out his fully automatic assault revolver and shot innocents in the attempt to be Rambo.

(am I doing it right?)

You forgot the 30 magazine clip.

 whembly wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 whembly wrote:
That's a fair point... but, that wasn't my question.

You're question was sophistry and you know it.

I disagree.

So you were genuinely curious as to his response? I find that hard to believe, as you seemed confident in his reply.

Of course you wouldn't post that at your home. Homes are different from businesses.

Well... you spend roughly a 1/3 of your life at work. Point being... if you feel strongly about a sign having the sort impact you want, then why not post it at your home?

Because, as I pointed out, the sign isn't about personal beliefs. Or, while it might be, all ideology stops at the water's edge.

The sign is about marketing. You don't market your home.

I wouldn't install a commerical grade deep fat frier in my home either.

Irrelevant.

I guess people treat virtually all aspects of their business differently than they treat their home. For example, when I ran a business, I felt very strongly in favor of taking Mastercard. I don't have a sign like that at my apartment. I also don't post my hours.

When did people who CC become the bad guys? Have there been a surge of shootings carried out by people who were open or concealed carrying?

 Ouze wrote:

 whembly wrote:
[I'm not picking on you... but, genuinely curious.

But I'm not sure if that's an apt comparison.

How would you feel having that same sign at your home?

I know you wouldn't do it... but, think about it. What's your instinctual/gut response?

Conversely, how do you think a buglar would feel about targeting a home, that has the home security sign on it's lawn? What's his likely response?

Polonius beat me to it, but a home is not akin to a business. In a business, I'd be concerned with some moron having a negligent discharge (happens constantly in walmart, which probably doesn't surprise you). I'd probably rather lose the register cash then face the liability of the wild west breaking out over what's probably less cash than the value of an iphone, in this day of debit cards. I don't generally agree with lethal force to protect property.

In my house, it's different. I have to presume that it's a home invasion rather than a simple robbery, my family would be in mortal danger, and I would respond accordingly as my state's castle doctrine allows.

Good response.

I just don't think it's that cut & dry.

It stands to reason that this restaurant owner is targeting certain clientel... rather expecting the sign to work to truly prevent guns from entering their establishment.

This segues into the whole "gun-free zones" at schools. On the one hand, it's there to give the school workers and parents some peace of mind that weapons are minimized as much as it can be (ie, lower chance for accidental dischcarges, etc...).

On the other hand, and this what the pro-gun control crowd continually tries to discount, that "gun-free zones" is a target to any criminals.

I wonder if liability insurance at those business requires such a sign as well.

 Ouze wrote:
I also wouldn't have a no guns allowed sign on my private business, if I ran one - but I respect the right of business owners to decide for themselves. So, I'm arguing for a point that's not even my personal preference.

If I felt such a sign would bring in business, hell yeah I'd put up a sign like that!

If there are enough yuppie transplants in Durham that feel uncomfortable around armed hillfolk, then by all means, create a safe space for them.

 Polonius wrote:
Because, as I pointed out, the sign isn't about personal beliefs. Or, while it might be, all ideology stops at the water's edge.

What does this expression mean? I've not heard it before.

 whembly wrote:


It stands to reason that this restaurant owner is targeting certain clientel... rather expecting the sign to work to truly prevent guns from entering their establishment.

This segues into the whole "gun-free zones" at schools. On the one hand, it's there to give the school workers and parents some peace of mind that weapons are minimized as much as it can be (ie, lower chance for accidental dischcarges, etc...).

On the other hand, and this what the pro-gun control crowd continually tries to discount, that "gun-free zones" is a target to any criminals.

I wonder if liability insurance at those business requires such a sign as well.

Or, the business really doesn't care about the guns. they just might be chasing the business of people that don't like them.

 Ouze wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Because, as I pointed out, the sign isn't about personal beliefs. Or, while it might be, all ideology stops at the water's edge.

What does this expression mean? I've not heard it before.

They used to take customers they didn't like down to the coast and drown them, yet most couldn't swim themselves so did it at the waters edge.

 Polonius wrote:
If there are enough yuppie transplants in Durham that feel uncomfortable around armed hillfolk, then by all means, create a safe space for them.

The fact that they find that place safer though is the boggling part to me

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
When did people who CC become the bad guys? Have there been a surge of shootings carried out by people who were open or concealed carrying?

To be fair, the perps in this case seem to have been open carry types.