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 stanman wrote:
Ignore the fact that tens of thousands of white men died to give them freedom,

Since tens of thousands of white men also died to keep them enslaved, I think it's a wash.

just concentrate on the minority that "keeps them down" and blame the whole white race. ::eye roll::

Yeah, you didn't read the article either. Nobody is blaming the "whole white race." That's nonsense. Reparations are not an act of individual contrition, and does not imply guilt of any particular individual. It's about a collective responsibility rooted in our national history. Let's say we did decide to do reparations. The money would come from all Americans. You know what that means? It means that Will Smith is going to pay more in reparations than you will, unless by some statistical improbability you're actually richer than Will Smith.

So cut the "blame the whole white race" nonsense. That's just a smokescreen.

America is a land where in a single generation you can lift yourself up with hard work and education. Many of our wealthiest individuals have came from nothing and built empires by their own hand. While not everyone achieves that level of success, it is certainly possible to rise far above your roots. Any person can build a life for themselves regardless of the circumstance that they come from by educating themselves, it's all determined by how driven you are and how willing you are to grow and evolve as a person. This is true regardless of race, the difficulty is that in order to make those changes is that people have to take responsibility for the actions they do (or don't do) that hinder their own success. It's very hard for most people to be truly honest with themselves about what is holding them back in life and it's usually easier to blame something or someone else for those failures.

Where we come from is not under our control, but the choices you make you have power over where you end up. Sometimes our past means we have to work harder for certain things, but you are not bound to the past if you choose not to let it hinder you.

Nobody in life is "owed" anything, you can choose to either accept the life you have, or take actions to improve upon it.

You know how I know you are white? Because you believe this nonsense.

My step-dad owns a small business and he has two employees, Chris and Robert. Chris is a ex-meth addict with multiple facial piercing and clearly visible self-applied tattoos, some of which are satanic. He wears all black, skulls on everything, and listens to death metal. Robert is a clean-cut immigrant from Ghana who wears khakis and polo shirts and has an accent. He doesn't understand American jokes but laughs anyways. Sometimes my step-dad sends one or the other of them out to pick up things for the business, whether that be parts or lunch, and gives them the company credit card. No one has ever questioned whether Chris had a legitimate right to use the card, but Robert gets questioned and refused business so often that my step-dad had to make him business cards (and still gets called to confirm that Robert is an actual employee on a regular basis). The reality is that guys like Chris, who (no duh) is white, can feth up and screw up their lives (or get their lives screwed up by bad parents/luck) and be degenerates dirtbags and recover. While guys like Robert often aren't even given one chance to not screw it up.

I disagree with you. I think everybody in life is owned ample opportunities to get their life together and figure out how to be a productive, contributing member of society and enjoy its benefits -- not just people lucky enough to have rich parents. I do not agree that we have to let some people fail, and really strongly disagree with the notion that skin color should have anything to do with who fails and who succeeds. That's bs. That's not fair. And I don't give a rat's ass if it's unrealistic, that is not fair and I will not accept it as the way things have to be or dismiss it as someone else's problem. This is a problem that belongs to all of us, and you're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem. I don't think you're part of the solution.

So no matter how many times someone screws up, we should just let it go and give them another chance?

 Gen. Lee Losing wrote:

Anyone who wants to seriously look into improving race relations should read everything written my Thomas Sowell. The man is a genius and speaks plain truth.

I may, or may not, have squirted beer out of my nose when I read this.

Some of Sowell's academic work is decent, but his journalistic work is horrid as he is obviously trying to sell articles to receptive publishers and audiences.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So no matter how many times someone screws up, we should just let it go and give them another chance?

I am generally in favor of being forgiving, though context and situation matter. That's really a different subject.

Regardless of whether one thinks society should be forgiving of mistakes and allow second chances, or society should be unforgiving and write you off after one mistake, one has to agree that the same standard should apply to white people and black people. The problem is that it doesn't. As a society, we have different standards for white and black, and its deeply rooted in white supremacy.

Like with the Treyvon Martin shooting, nobody would have been suggesting that Treyvon was some hardened criminal and gangster who provoked his own death if he was white. The "evidence" that was marshalled against Treyvon -- listens to rap music, wears a hoodie, post stupid pictures of himself pretending to be tough to his facebook from his house in the suburbs -- would have looked completely different on a white kid. Nobody thinks a white kid who listens to rap music, wears a hoodie, post stupid pictures of himself pretending to be tough to his facebook from his house in the suburbs is a real criminal gangster. The reason that argument against Treyvon was able to plant roots and grow is because many white Americans have an idea about black people that paints successful, middle class blacks as the exception and not the rule, and sees poor, uneducated and criminally-minded whites as the exception and not the rule. That's why we offer white guys like Chris second chances, but black guys like Chris get sent to jail and have their lives ruined. Because the redemption arc fits our internal narratives about whites, while the reversion to type arc fits our internal narratives about blacks.

 friendlycommissar wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
1) Nowhere near enough cash to pay it out.

That's a complete fallacy. There is as much cash as the Federal Reserve says there is. It is literally impossible to run out of cash.

True, but it is possible to run out of cash that carries significant value; hence the concept of inflation.

 dogma wrote:

 friendlycommissar wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
1) Nowhere near enough cash to pay it out.

That's a complete fallacy. There is as much cash as the Federal Reserve says there is. It is literally impossible to run out of cash.

True, but it is possible to run out of cash that carries significant value; hence the concept of inflation.

Yes, but the idea that we can't afford to address a major social injustice is ridiculous. Even if we we're talking trillions of dollars (which we aren't), there's ample room for growth in the economy to absorb the money and keep inflation from spiraling out of control. The argument that we can't afford reparations is just absurd. If it was done correctly, it would be a tremendous boost to the economy - especially over the long term. Such that it would justify any cost; the returns would be incalculable. If we ended urban blight and turned those communities trapped in inter-generational poverty into part of a productive middle class it would have a tidal effect on the economy not unlike the effects of GI BIll, which helped boost America into its most productive period ever. Combine that with a massive reduction in welfare spending and the far more costly law enforcement, and you'd see huge benefits.

Alas, too many white Americans are adamant about not recognizing their own part in white supremacy that they can't even see a concept like reparations in pragmatic terms. I see it as both essentially fair and just, but also deeply pragmatic. It would go a long ways towards healing a deep psychic scar on the American psyche and fulfilling the promise of the American Dream, but would also be a tremendous boost to the economy that would pay for itself multiple times over. Win win.

 friendlycommissar wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So no matter how many times someone screws up, we should just let it go and give them another chance?

I am generally in favor of being forgiving, though context and situation matter. That's really a different subject.

Regardless of whether one thinks society should be forgiving of mistakes and allow second chances, or society should be unforgiving and write you off after one mistake, one has to agree that the same standard should apply to white people and black people. The problem is that it doesn't. As a society, we have different standards for white and black, and its deeply rooted in white supremacy.

Like with the Treyvon Martin shooting, nobody would have been suggesting that Treyvon was some hardened criminal and gangster who provoked his own death if he was white. The "evidence" that was marshalled against Treyvon -- listens to rap music, wears a hoodie, post stupid pictures of himself pretending to be tough to his facebook from his house in the suburbs -- would have looked completely different on a white kid. Nobody thinks a white kid who listens to rap music, wears a hoodie, post stupid pictures of himself pretending to be tough to his facebook from his house in the suburbs is a real criminal gangster. The reason that argument against Treyvon was able to plant roots and grow is because many white Americans have an idea about black people that paints successful, middle class blacks as the exception and not the rule, and sees poor, uneducated and criminally-minded whites as the exception and not the rule. That's why we offer white guys like Chris second chances, but black guys like Chris get sent to jail and have their lives ruined. Because the redemption arc fits our internal narratives about whites, while the reversion to type arc fits our internal narratives about blacks.

Really? I thought it was because Travon Martin had a known history of being violent and got suspended from school and was knwn to use drugs that make you angry.

I may have missed it, the article rather comprehensively charted the butterfly effect of slavery- but did it actually lay out a plan for reparations, or how they should be done? The article ended with this quote-

"In 2011, Bank of America agreed to pay $355 million to settle charges of discrimination against its Countrywide unit. The following year, Wells Fargo settled its discrimination suit for more than $175 million. But the damage had been done. In 2009, half the properties in Baltimore whose owners had been granted loans by Wells Fargo between 2005 and 2008 were vacant; 71 percent of these properties were in predominantly black neighborhoods."

To my admittedly white eyes, this seems to end by saying that even if reparations are paid, and paid promptly, they do not compensate or correct the damage done.

What is the plan for reparations? Generally, you don't turn a populace around unless you can provide gainful employment and improve the overall level of education. The reparations to Israel worked because the Israelis were in a position to improve their country meaningfully, and invest the capital in profitable ventures. How would this be replicated in the United States? We can't even agree who can marry whom, or whether weed is illegal, medicine, or a recreational drug.

 friendlycommissar wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
1) Nowhere near enough cash to pay it out.

That's a complete fallacy. There is as much cash as the Federal Reserve says there is. It is literally impossible to run out of cash.

You have ZERO clue how economics works do you. You can't just print money and use it to pay for stuff. See post-war Germany.

"Yes I'd like to buy a loaf of bread please."

"That'll be 50 trillion Marks."

2) Its not going to fix anything.

That's nothing but defeatism.

Give a man a fish...

3) You are holding every current white person responsible for the actions of a tiny minority of white people from several generations ago. That opens up a whole can of worms you don't want to open. It would mean we would also have to hold the descendents of Nazi war criminals to be as equally responsible for their ancestors actions as they were, the descendents of Romans would have to be tried for throwing people to lions, the descendents of Vikings would have to be held responsible for all the plundering, pillage, and rape they committed(ditto for the Mongolians and Huns), etc...

You know how I know you didn't actually read the article, and just dismissed it out of hand without even pausing to think or consider the argument being made? Because the underlined bit there, that's exactly what happened. Germany -- including Germans born after the war! -- paid reparations to Israel for the crimes of the Nazis. Your other examples are bogus, because they refer to events that occurred centuries ago and have no meaningful consequences in the modern world.

Again this demonstrates that you did not read the article, which is full of examples of how modern, contemporary African-Americans have been systematically impoverished by institutional racism while whites have systematically benefit.

I don't need to have read this article because I've read others espousing this BS idea.

Yeah, Germany paid reparations. Just because it happened doesn't mean it fixed the problem. People died dude! Horrifically! And people who actively perpetrated the action can pay reparations, it doesn't make sense for those who didn't do the bad things to pay them.

German reparations made sense because people who actively harmed others could directly pay them.


The same doesn't hold true for African Americans and Caucasian Americans today, for the reasons you said here so eloquently.

Your other examples are bogus, because they refer to events that occurred centuries ago and have no meaningful consequences in the modern world.

Yeah, holding whites accountable for slavery is just as ludicrous as holding the descendents of Vikings responsible for their ancestors actions.

There is no argument which can make it a good idea. Anyone espousing it should be ignored.

The calling card of a man who has abandoned all reason and logic in favor of simplistic and emotionally satisfying ideology. There is no argument which can make it a good idea {u]to you[/u], because you are close-minded and unwilling to consider arguments fairly and rationally.

 Gitzbitah wrote:
I may have missed it, the article rather comprehensively charted the butterfly effect of slavery- but did it actually lay out a plan for reparations, or how they should be done? The article ended with this quote-

"In 2011, Bank of America agreed to pay $355 million to settle charges of discrimination against its Countrywide unit. The following year, Wells Fargo settled its discrimination suit for more than $175 million. But the damage had been done. In 2009, half the properties in Baltimore whose owners had been granted loans by Wells Fargo between 2005 and 2008 were vacant; 71 percent of these properties were in predominantly black neighborhoods."

To my admittedly white eyes, this seems to end by saying that even if reparations are paid, and paid promptly, they do not compensate or correct the damage done.

What is the plan for reparations? Generally, you don't turn a populace around unless you can provide gainful employment and improve the overall level of education. The reparations to Israel worked because the Israelis were in a position to improve their country meaningfully, and invest the capital in profitable ventures. How would this be replicated in the United States? We can't even agree who can marry whom, or whether weed is illegal, medicine, or a recreational drug.

This is something my black friend said. "You should not, they will spend it right away and leave with nothing of value" He said how often poor people would spend any spare money they got right away and loose it within days.

Let's not dive into the individuals motivation of the Confederate Army, Continental Army, and the Government of those times. One cannot apply the mindset of today to the mindset of the past. If Reparation occurs, which I highly doubt it will happen. Then "Reparation" of those indentured to come over to the colonies can occur.

Yeah, you didn't read the article either.

Actually I did read the article in it's entirety.

I'm sorry that they got suckered into overpaying for houses and predatory lending that hurt them, but perhaps if they'd been a bit better educated they would have realized just how raw of a deal they were entering into. Just because they were encountering Jim Crow treatment down south doesn't mean that everyone from the north is just as guilty, nor is there any guilt for all the millions of people who's parent, grandparents, great grandparents who arrived well after the civil war. My family is all 1st generation, we've had no involvement with any part of slavery or any business involvement with suppression of blacks yet somehow we share a common guilt? I think not.

You know how I know you are white? Because you believe this nonsense.

My step-dad owns a small business and he has two employees, Chris and Robert. Chris is a ex-meth addict with multiple facial piercing and clearly visible self-applied tattoos, some of which are satanic. He wears all black, skulls on everything, and listens to death metal. Robert is a clean-cut immigrant from Ghana who wears khakis and polo shirts and has an accent. He doesn't understand American jokes but laughs anyways. Sometimes my step-dad sends one or the other of them out to pick up things for the business, whether that be parts or lunch, and gives them the company credit card. No one has ever questioned whether Chris had a legitimate right to use the card, but Robert gets questioned and refused business so often that my step-dad had to make him business cards (and still gets called to confirm that Robert is an actual employee on a regular basis). The reality is that guys like Chris, who (no duh) is white, can feth up and screw up their lives (or get their lives screwed up by bad parents/luck) and be degenerates dirtbags and recover. While guys like Robert often aren't even given one chance to not screw it up.

I disagree with you. I think everybody in life is owned ample opportunities to get their life together and figure out how to be a productive, contributing member of society and enjoy its benefits -- not just people lucky enough to have rich parents. I do not agree that we have to let some people fail, and really strongly disagree with the notion that skin color should have anything to do with who fails and who succeeds. That's bs. That's not fair. And I don't give a rat's ass if it's unrealistic, that is not fair and I will not accept it as the way things have to be or dismiss it as someone else's problem. This is a problem that belongs to all of us, and you're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem. I don't think you're part of the solution.

I believe this "nonsense" because I have seen first hand how families can build themselves a new life from nothing. It sucks that people are discriminated against but it's not just color. My father is discriminated against due to his accent and ethnic background, he wasn't able to get loans from a bank yet he's managed to build a successful business and provide a home for our family. Before coming from Romania my family was very poor and had 8 people living in a one room apartment and had nothing because of the war. There were no favors given to my parents who couldn't even speak the language, when they came here they were taken advantage of like many others. But they worked very hard to learn new things and make a new life. Life is never fair, and other people will always try to take away things from poor people (regardless of color) but with work you can overcome the things you are born into and make life better.

I get kind of lost in the logic of the reparations argument when they talk about stuff like targeted grants for poorly funded predominantly black schools. Well, yeah, that's a good idea, but that's a good idea no matter whether the kids are white or black.

You get born in to poverty, then it is both right, and good for society overall to give you every chance of success regardless of that poverty, whether you're black or white. I don't really get why these kinds of things can only be justified through race.

To be honest, I think we are starting to create a cult of victimhood, where anything bad that happens to black americans is blamed on white people

 friendlycommissar wrote:

Yes, but the idea that we can't afford to address a major social injustice is ridiculous. Even if we we're talking trillions of dollars (which we aren't), there's ample room for growth in the economy to absorb the money and keep inflation from spiraling out of control.

Yeah, that's nonsense. If we're talking about trillions, then the net impact on the US economy would, minimally, cause significant short-term inflation which would easily outstrip any short-term productions gains.

And if we're not talking about trillions we're still talking about a large amount of money which has a negative impact on the value of the dollar, and the federal budget (which is not in good shape).

 friendlycommissar wrote:

The argument that we can't afford reparations is just absurd. If it was done correctly, it would be a tremendous boost to the economy - especially over the long term. Such that it would justify any cost; the returns would be incalculable.

By "directly" do you mean giving money to black families? If so the results can very easily be calculated according to total expenditure, and spending trends.

 friendlycommissar wrote:

If we ended urban blight and turned those communities trapped in inter-generational poverty into part of a productive middle class it would have a tidal effect on the economy not unlike the effects of GI BIll, which helped boost America into its most productive period ever. Combine that with a massive reduction in welfare spending and the far more costly law enforcement, and you'd see huge benefits.

But you're not talking about ending urban blight, you're talking about reparations; two very different things. If reparations were issued tomorrow it might help end urban blight (though I doubt it), but that alone wouldn't do the trick.

 friendlycommissar wrote:

Alas, too many white Americans are adamant about not recognizing their own part in white supremacy that they can't even see a concept like reparations in pragmatic terms. I see it as both essentially fair and just, but also deeply pragmatic. It would go a long ways towards healing a deep psychic scar on the American psyche and fulfilling the promise of the American Dream, but would also be a tremendous boost to the economy that would pay for itself multiple times over. Win win.

And likely create a much larger one, as there is no way impoverished (and not impoverished) *insert race*people wouldn't feel injured by the enactment of a law which enabled reparations.

It's hard for me to take an article about reparations seriously that doesn't even mention in passing the fact that we still have Native Americans living on reservations in some of the worst poverty in this entire country. If we're going to talk reparations for any group of people in the US, Native Americans should be first in line.

Not that that minimizes any of the suffering and struggles that African Americans have gone through, but Native Americans have been and continue to be almost completely ignored in the popular narrative, often times even when discussions of institutionalized racism come up, and as far as I'm concerned that is unacceptable.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Yeah, holding whites accountable for slavery is just as ludicrous as holding the descendents of Vikings responsible for their ancestors actions.

I get held responsible for my ancestors clearing the world of frost giants and introducing heavy metal and awesome beards into the world all the time. Usually in the form of almost more tail than I can manage. Almost.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, Germany paid reparations. Just because it happened doesn't mean it fixed the problem. People died dude! Horrifically! And people who actively perpetrated the action can pay reparations, it doesn't make sense for those who didn't do the bad things to pay them.

German reparations made sense because people who actively harmed others could directly pay them.

The same doesn't hold true for African Americans and Caucasian Americans today, for the reasons you said here so eloquently.

As long as you think the party paying reparations will be white people, and they funds will be raised by going around and asking all the white people to chip in $500 then your answer makes sense. But it isn't white people, but the US government, as an on-going entity, that is responsible.

When prison in-mates sue and win for barbaric treatment in prison, then it makes no sense to say 'oh why do all of us non-prisoners have to pay for what happened to that guy?'

I mean, I'm not even in favour of reparations and think the whole thing is a distraction from the real issues of black poverty, but this thing about how it's so unfair that white people would have to pay is just so much bs.

And of course, there's the point that it isn't about just slavery anyway, but about the century of institutional injustice that followed.

I don't think paying black people money is going to solve anything. Those people will buy a new car or televison, the money will run out and then the situation will be exactly like it was before.
Also, can I sue the Mongolian state for reparations? I need money for more wargaming figures.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I need money for more wargaming figures.

I advocate all reparations be paid in Privateer Press models

DutchWinsAll wrote:

A dakka newb wins the thread! lol.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 friendlycommissar wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So no matter how many times someone screws up, we should just let it go and give them another chance?

I am generally in favor of being forgiving, though context and situation matter. That's really a different subject.

Regardless of whether one thinks society should be forgiving of mistakes and allow second chances, or society should be unforgiving and write you off after one mistake, one has to agree that the same standard should apply to white people and black people. The problem is that it doesn't. As a society, we have different standards for white and black, and its deeply rooted in white supremacy.

Like with the Treyvon Martin shooting, nobody would have been suggesting that Treyvon was some hardened criminal and gangster who provoked his own death if he was white. The "evidence" that was marshalled against Treyvon -- listens to rap music, wears a hoodie, post stupid pictures of himself pretending to be tough to his facebook from his house in the suburbs -- would have looked completely different on a white kid. Nobody thinks a white kid who listens to rap music, wears a hoodie, post stupid pictures of himself pretending to be tough to his facebook from his house in the suburbs is a real criminal gangster. The reason that argument against Treyvon was able to plant roots and grow is because many white Americans have an idea about black people that paints successful, middle class blacks as the exception and not the rule, and sees poor, uneducated and criminally-minded whites as the exception and not the rule. That's why we offer white guys like Chris second chances, but black guys like Chris get sent to jail and have their lives ruined. Because the redemption arc fits our internal narratives about whites, while the reversion to type arc fits our internal narratives about blacks.

Really? I thought it was because Travon Martin had a known history of being violent and got suspended from school and was knwn to use drugs that make you angry.

Don't forget how he was portrayed as a saint, they had used his younger images to manipulate the public, anyone who said anything was a racist and should be dragged out and shot, and ignore the actual evidence that Zimmerman had his head bleeding on concrete and that he totally just shot him.

There's good arguments about racists actually causing harm based on the color of skin. Trayvon is not one of them, what one should do is point out the times where general public image was bringing down someone that actually WAS innocent, like those cases where DNA evidence has exonerated those suffering people in jails from their crime that they didn't commit, except for being the right 'color' at the time.

If you take reparations to its logical conclusion, then Britain will find itself dragged into this one way or another. The Royal African Company springs to mind.

And course, debts from the revolutionary war from America to Britain (as stipulated in the Treaty of Paris) have largely went unpaid.

Americans might go on about two world wars, but Revolutionary debts take precedence!

And of course, as others have pointed out, no mention at all of the Native Americans in this article, lest we forget that they were nearly exterminated by waves of colonists arriving in America.

The reparations thing just makes no sense, who are you going to pay them too? Who is going to pay them? Who decides who gets them and who doesn't?

If something like this was ever undertaken it would become heavily politicized, we'd essentially see the "I'm more oppressed than you" Tumblr SJW arguments play out on a national level.

 friendlycommissar wrote:
.

Like with the Treyvon Martin shooting, nobody would have been suggesting that Treyvon was some hardened criminal and gangster who provoked his own death if he was white. The "evidence" that was marshalled against Treyvon -- listens to rap music, wears a hoodie, post stupid pictures of himself pretending to be tough to his facebook from his house in the suburbs -- would have looked completely different on a white kid. Nobody thinks a white kid who listens to rap music, wears a hoodie, post stupid pictures of himself pretending to be tough to his facebook from his house in the suburbs is a real criminal gangster. The reason that argument against Treyvon was able to plant roots and grow is because many white Americans have an idea about black people that paints successful, middle class blacks as the exception and not the rule, and sees poor, uneducated and criminally-minded whites as the exception and not the rule. That's why we offer white guys like Chris second chances, but black guys like Chris get sent to jail and have their lives ruined. Because the redemption arc fits our internal narratives about whites, while the reversion to type arc fits our internal narratives about blacks.

I don't think there's a worse example that you could have used than the Trayvon Martin shooting.

The media manipulation and suppression of facts in this case was disgusting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 friendlycommissar wrote:
.

.

My step-dad owns a small business and he has two employees, Chris and Robert. Chris is a ex-meth addict with multiple facial piercing and clearly visible self-applied tattoos, some of which are satanic. He wears all black, skulls on everything, and listens to death metal. Robert is a clean-cut immigrant from Ghana who wears khakis and polo shirts and has an accent. He doesn't understand American jokes but laughs anyways. Sometimes my step-dad sends one or the other of them out to pick up things for the business, whether that be parts or lunch, and gives them the company credit card. No one has ever questioned whether Chris had a legitimate right to use the card, but Robert gets questioned and refused business so often that my step-dad had to make him business cards (and still gets called to confirm that Robert is an actual employee on a regular basis). The reality is that guys like Chris, who (no duh) is white, can feth up and screw up their lives (or get their lives screwed up by bad parents/luck) and be degenerates dirtbags and recover. While guys like Robert often aren't even given one chance to not screw it up.
.

I don't believe you.

I think that there are going to be instances where, if two "equally professional" people are doing the same thing that a person of color would be discrimated against more than a white male. I don't believe this is one of them.

In every business and environmental situation I've been a part of Robert would be preferred, without question.

 friendlycommissar wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 friendlycommissar wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
1) Nowhere near enough cash to pay it out.

That's a complete fallacy. There is as much cash as the Federal Reserve says there is. It is literally impossible to run out of cash.

True, but it is possible to run out of cash that carries significant value; hence the concept of inflation.

Yes, but the idea that we can't afford to address a major social injustice is ridiculous. Even if we we're talking trillions of dollars (which we aren't), there's ample room for growth in the economy to absorb the money and keep inflation from spiraling out of control. The argument that we can't afford reparations is just absurd. If it was done correctly, it would be a tremendous boost to the economy - especially over the long term. Such that it would justify any cost; the returns would be incalculable. If we ended urban blight and turned those communities trapped in inter-generational poverty into part of a productive middle class it would have a tidal effect on the economy not unlike the effects of GI BIll, which helped boost America into its most productive period ever. Combine that with a massive reduction in welfare spending and the far more costly law enforcement, and you'd see huge benefits.

Alas, too many white Americans are adamant about not recognizing their own part in white supremacy that they can't even see a concept like reparations in pragmatic terms. I see it as both essentially fair and just, but also deeply pragmatic. It would go a long ways towards healing a deep psychic scar on the American psyche and fulfilling the promise of the American Dream, but would also be a tremendous boost to the economy that would pay for itself multiple times over. Win win.

Tell you what... I'll make you a deal.

If we can determine a cash value for all the Affirmative Actions, targeted programs, welfare that the african americans has access to, but not poor whitey.... then, determine a "cut off time"... I'll make it easier, let's just say since the Civil Rights era and give it all back to the US government.

Then we can talk about reparations. Until then, I'm not interested.

I've checked my "white supremacy" (or privilege?)... it's just fine.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sebster wrote:
I get kind of lost in the logic of the reparations argument when they talk about stuff like targeted grants for poorly funded predominantly black schools. Well, yeah, that's a good idea, but that's a good idea no matter whether the kids are white or black.

You get born in to poverty, then it is both right, and good for society overall to give you every chance of success regardless of that poverty, whether you're black or white. I don't really get why these kinds of things can only be justified through race.

Exactly. Perfectly stated Seb....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
This thread again...

I know... popcorn worthy?

To be fair, that OP article is an interesting read.

 sebster wrote:
I get kind of lost in the logic of the reparations argument when they talk about stuff like targeted grants for poorly funded predominantly black schools. Well, yeah, that's a good idea, but that's a good idea no matter whether the kids are white or black.

You get born in to poverty, then it is both right, and good for society overall to give you every chance of success regardless of that poverty, whether you're black or white. I don't really get why these kinds of things can only be justified through race.

I'm going to have to agree with sebster here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hordini wrote:
It's hard for me to take an article about reparations seriously that doesn't even mention in passing the fact that we still have Native Americans living on reservations in some of the worst poverty in this entire country. If we're going to talk reparations for any group of people in the US, Native Americans should be first in line.

Not that that minimizes any of the suffering and struggles that African Americans have gone through, but Native Americans have been and continue to be almost completely ignored in the popular narrative, often times even when discussions of institutionalized racism come up, and as far as I'm concerned that is unacceptable.

Which reminds me. One of the contracts got settled with a re-compensation to Cherokees. My grandpa got it. It was about... 16 or something dollars

Awesome. I knew posting this would cause the racists to come out of the woodwork.

And today my ignore list grew by a dozen names.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 sebster wrote:
I get kind of lost in the logic of the reparations argument when they talk about stuff like targeted grants for poorly funded predominantly black schools. Well, yeah, that's a good idea, but that's a good idea no matter whether the kids are white or black.

You get born in to poverty, then it is both right, and good for society overall to give you every chance of success regardless of that poverty, whether you're black or white. I don't really get why these kinds of things can only be justified through race.

I'm going to have to agree with sebster here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hordini wrote:
It's hard for me to take an article about reparations seriously that doesn't even mention in passing the fact that we still have Native Americans living on reservations in some of the worst poverty in this entire country. If we're going to talk reparations for any group of people in the US, Native Americans should be first in line.

Not that that minimizes any of the suffering and struggles that African Americans have gone through, but Native Americans have been and continue to be almost completely ignored in the popular narrative, often times even when discussions of institutionalized racism come up, and as far as I'm concerned that is unacceptable.

Which reminds me. One of the contracts got settled with a re-compensation to Cherokees. My grandpa got it. It was about... 16 or something dollars

Last time I checked that was the price for a bunch of beads.

But Im going to say this, Yes, black people got screwed in that past and because of that they are still in legacy poverty. Yes, black schools stink often. This is something I see often in my sociology class(Not from the teachers, but from the students funnily. Most again, agree with me) They often say that poor people and poor black people lack any form of way to help lift them up themselves, they work so many hours and so much this and that they cant improve their life. We liberals created an idea that poor people are helpless and cant do anything without help, including feeding their family. And it just irks me

 friendlycommissar wrote:
Awesome. I knew posting this would cause the racists to come out of the woodwork.

And today my ignore list grew by a dozen names.

Nothing like judging people for how they appear, eh?