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 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

 Reptile(5iN) wrote:
I'm most likely wrong and I don't have my book to hand but aren't flamers in a different section to regular ranged weapons? So that faq refers to the hades cannon? Wishful thinking?

Flamers are measured from the base of a model, but does that override the part were vehicle weapons are measured from the weapon itself?

Not on Walkers, so I'd say the same rules apply to the Heldrake.

I honestly think this issue is GW being dumb GW and forgetting to transfer over most of the crap from the 6th edition FAQ's.

For the Necron FAQ's which I've been running over with the comparisons, there are a number of rule changes and FAQ's that did not get carried over into the new FAQ. Things like our Hyperphase Swords are no longer listed as Power Swords, etc. So there's a good chance these things will get fixed.


Eventually

RivenSkull wrote:
I honestly think this issue is GW being dumb GW and forgetting to transfer over most of the crap from the 6th edition FAQ's.

For the Necron FAQ's which I've been running over with the comparisons, there are a number of rule changes and FAQ's that did not get carried over into the new FAQ. Things like our Hyperphase Swords are no longer listed as Power Swords, etc. So there's a good chance these things will get fixed.


Eventually

Hyperphase Swords are on the 3rd page, left column of the FAQ for Necrons. They're AP3 melee weapons.

Lol i'm sorry but you are counting your army on the helldrake being nerfed? take 3 its still dripping with cheese.

Omg a chaos lord who is gonna use them with the new powers.. crank out some psykers get some demon farm happening.

vector strike is ap 2 how so " my 3 drakes will vector strike your terminators then they will roast all you tac squads" 3 of 5 termies dead 20 marines dead.

they will errata each army once they can see the holes appear. its all good and well to cry and sulk and NERD RAGE. but in the end you picked the army not games workshop. cos if they picked your army you would be playing ultra marines lol.

Im looking at my army and as a gk player a lot of my rules are fubar. now people can deny my force weapons they can deny my hammerhands, im paying x amount of points for less now.

BUT

i looked at other alternatives, other fun little things ive always wanted to try but didnt and it seems like hey i can have some fun and still be competitive. you rage after 6 days of release. how many games have you actually played with the new rules? do you have a good baseline to rage at? or are you looking at a book and mathhammering and raging for no reason? be serious man.

look at tau getting d6 dispell dice woooooooooo against a demonfarm with 40+ dice getting god knows how many lil demons a turn. Hi Im necron i can get back up but your 5 squads of free troops just keep me in a tarpit of hate.

look at white scars players with the heavy customised bikes who now have to go oh wait lets just go back to all twin linked weapons because i now have to snap shot if im jink saving. which against a helldrake... omg they will have to jink save his flamer.

I see a little balance in most of the rule book ( i have not read it all)

even blood angels got a lil buff with the 7+ for exploding.... i see blood talons!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh oh yeah i forgot 30 man cultist squad with force weapons. psyker gods be praised. cultists can kill mc now

I think the changes to vector strike are more of a buff than a debuff. AP2 is a lot more effective against flyers [which the drake wasn't too good against], since the flyer's low AV makes it easy to get a pen hit.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
DA may be worse,

Ravenwing with the Dakka banner.

Some of us remember using them as hull mounted weapons anyway, it wasn't that bad. But with the old FAQ Heldrakes were too good. At least now I won't have to put up with moaning whenever I use just one.

For 170 points they're still a bargain.

So yes the heldrake took an nerf (back to before the previous FAQ with shooting), but also got a bit better at being able to kill things in ruins, and open topped vehicles. Certainly not even, but it is not a bad unit.

All walkers got a bit buffed with new damage table, and the reduction of smash attacks by MCs.

Champion of Chaos got a little less nerfed because wounds carry over out of combat, so your killy lord no longer just kills one guy and turns into a spawn.

Chaos Sorcerers got buffed with spell familiars/bale star being even better, and the ability to get 4 powers (with psychic focus)

Through use of said psychic powers things like spawn got better (Endurance on spawn makes them pretty gross, same with invisibility.)

Belakor got better.

Using Daemons as allies got better because you can take 4 heralds if you want.

Are CSM great, no but I think other than the drake they are better than they were last edition (Objective secured Rhinos, ZOmbies etc.) with the exception of being Heldrake allies.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

RivenSkull wrote:
I honestly think this issue is GW being dumb GW and forgetting to transfer over most of the crap from the 6th edition FAQ's.

For the Necron FAQ's which I've been running over with the comparisons, there are a number of rule changes and FAQ's that did not get carried over into the new FAQ. Things like our Hyperphase Swords are no longer listed as Power Swords, etc. So there's a good chance these things will get fixed.


Eventually

Hyperphase Swords are on the 3rd page, left column of the FAQ for Necrons. They're AP3 melee weapons.

Missed that. Joys of reading at 3am

Though, the lack of a number of the old FAQ's like the wounding on 2+ Hunters from Hyperspace applying to Royal Court members is something akin to that idea of missing things.

Either way, there's a chance GW messed up on the FAQ's and Errata's in places that could change in the future.

It's really a mixed bag.

Unmarked Sorcerers got better with Spell Familars and 4 powers if they choose a single discipline.

Daemon Engines and Walkers got a tad bit better.

The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

The Heldrake got more survivable, not that it needed it, but I personally think that the Vector Strike nerf was enough. The weapon really should have stayed turret mounted.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
Sisters and DA may be worse, but I don't know. What do you all think?

Well, do you think your Chaos Lord is a good and interesting choice ? Now, imagine the same point cost for -1WS, -1S, -1T, maybe -1A (I do not remember), stubborn instead of fearless, no Champion of Chaos special rule, but in exchange getting a 6++, Adamantium Will, and a once-per-game Hatred if you manage to pass a Ld test. Also, access to way less wargear, including no bikes, no jump pack, no 2+ save.
That is the Canoness.

You forgot the part where she also is a mostly punchy HQ choice in a shooty army who doesn't mesh with anything else in the army.

And the fact it is the only available generic HQ.

 Sasori wrote:
It's really a mixed bag.The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

I should look more into the updated rules. I have 3 decimators and would love to use them.

 Yonan wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
It's really a mixed bag.The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

I should look more into the updated rules. I have 3 decimators and would love to use them.

AV 13/12/11, 5++, Daemonic Resilience, can ignore Weapon Destroyed and Immobilised on a 5+. Siege Claw is S8 AP2 CCW with Shred and Smash. Oh, it can also DS.

My new and improved Decimator longs for some TMC blood.

text removed.

Reds8n

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
It's really a mixed bag.The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

I should look more into the updated rules. I have 3 decimators and would love to use them.

AV 13/12/11, 5++, Daemonic Resilience, can ignore Weapon Destroyed and Immobilised on a 5+. Siege Claw is S8 AP2 CCW with Shred and Smash. Oh, it can also DS.

My new and improved Decimator longs for some TMC blood.

Don't forget it can burn the occupants of transports it wrecks. And it can get back up after it's wrecked.

If you take it part of a Daemon Codex, and mark it, It benefits from the "Daemon of" rules as well.

OVerall, it's a lot better than it was.

RivenSkull wrote:
Either way, there's a chance GW messed up on the FAQ's and Errata's in places that could change in the future.

I would say there's exactly zero chance. It's not like GW simply forgot to include the Hellturkey in the FAQ. They explicitly included it and described it as having hull mounted weapons. That's a very deliberate act.

I never fielded a hell drake since they represented (for me) the most grossly broken unit in the codex. Not fun to play against at all. now that they have been toned down slightly they will be a lot more fun to play.

Cheers.

 Sasori wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
It's really a mixed bag.The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

I should look more into the updated rules. I have 3 decimators and would love to use them.

AV 13/12/11, 5++, Daemonic Resilience, can ignore Weapon Destroyed and Immobilised on a 5+. Siege Claw is S8 AP2 CCW with Shred and Smash. Oh, it can also DS.

My new and improved Decimator longs for some TMC blood.

Don't forget it can burn the occupants of transports it wrecks. And it can get back up after it's wrecked.

If you take it part of a Daemon Codex, and mark it, It benefits from the "Daemon of" rules as well.

OVerall, it's a lot better than it was.

Is it really worth its points cost though? A helbrute costs half as much and has similar cc attacks. Sure it isn't as durable but for the points cost it doesn't seem like the decimator is a bargain. The dual butcher cannon setup is similar to a forge fiend but again more expensive. Although the FF is a HS slot so I guess you could go for 3 of each for a hail of S8 shooting.

AFAIK the Decimator never was a "very good" unit, but it definitely has got buffed indirectly with the new rules. Previously it was a "well, it looks cool", now it's "it may actually kick some arse".

It seems to be quite good in CC, mostly because of the AV 13/5++ combo. If you want a shooty Walker the other ones are probably better (cheaper).

 Murdius Maximus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Black Templars would like to know if you still have your own dex, or just a paragraph of washed out afterthought in somebody elses book?

Nobody cares.

Wow. Try being a BA player pal. Your army got nerfed??

Already was the worst in 6th, simply stayed at the bottom.

Chaos players will whine about their codex no matter what.

The flaming hellturkey got buffed vs Open topped vehicles

Course nobody is going to really take much helturkeys, what with CD not needing to take some extra CSM anymore, why would they?

I'm just disappointed that they still didn't allow assaulting from transports, would've opened up Berzerkers and Possessed slightly at least.

Yeah...but we went from the bottom of the barrel to somewhere under the floor xD

The simily I was thinking of was having our head held down in a giant puddle to being chained to breeze blocks and thrown into the ocean.

Take away fast on our vehicles yet pay the same points is the worst. But also - gw did not sort out the dramatic disadvantage assault has compared to shooting. Our only viable HQ that was already 35pts more expensive than the SM equivalent, lost access to BA powers (so no 2 powers in 1 turn with shield) and we can't afford to take enough psykers to make a libby useful with how the power dice pool works now.
The only advantages we gained were the furioso libby gained psyker level 2, but this is offset by no longer having access to wings of sanguinius (plus who ever took furiiso libbys anyway?), and mephy being able to be joined by ICs.

JubbJubbz wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
It's really a mixed bag.The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

I should look more into the updated rules. I have 3 decimators and would love to use them.

AV 13/12/11, 5++, Daemonic Resilience, can ignore Weapon Destroyed and Immobilised on a 5+. Siege Claw is S8 AP2 CCW with Shred and Smash. Oh, it can also DS.

My new and improved Decimator longs for some TMC blood.

Don't forget it can burn the occupants of transports it wrecks. And it can get back up after it's wrecked.

If you take it part of a Daemon Codex, and mark it, It benefits from the "Daemon of" rules as well.

OVerall, it's a lot better than it was.

Is it really worth its points cost though? A helbrute costs half as much and has similar cc attacks. Sure it isn't as durable but for the points cost it doesn't seem like the decimator is a bargain. The dual butcher cannon setup is similar to a forge fiend but again more expensive. Although the FF is a HS slot so I guess you could go for 3 of each for a hail of S8 shooting.

Well, you don't want the Decimator for a pure shooty platform. You have better options for that. You generally either want it for wrecking Transports and flaming the insides or wrecking stuff in cc. Take the Soulburner for firing while you move up the field and then get in CC with something.

The Decimator is more than double the cost of a Helbrute, but it is significantly better. It has 5 Attacks base, AV 13 front, a 5++, Daemonic Resilience, and inbuilt Heavy flamers in it's close combat weapons. The biggest issue before was that MCs just made it, their plaything. Now it's got a decent shot.

Nope.

Sorry, but nope.

You're relying on one unit to win games?

You need to look deeper into this codex and look into the supplements as there are some other builds that will absolutely wreck face in 7th ed.

There are more options than Drake.

Dr Drake is dead he's locked in my basement.

Can't csm can summon a lot of demons. I though csm players would be super happy , about being being battle brothers with demons and having access divination and summoning now. And they save money too , they can play all those zombis as horrors now in 7th ed.

 sing your life wrote:

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
DA may be worse,

Ravenwing with the Dakka banner.

I'm just gonna have to call it that from now on if/when I field it.

Makumba wrote:
Can't csm can summon a lot of demons. I though csm players would be super happy , about being being battle brothers with demons and having access divination and summoning now. And they save money too , they can play all those zombis as horrors now in 7th ed.

I think many CSM players would be far more happy about CSM being a solid Codex on its own. Allying Daemons is fluffy, but not all of us are fine with having to use another Codex to drag the CSM to a reasonable level.

Makumba wrote:
Can't csm can summon a lot of demons. I though csm players would be super happy , about being being battle brothers with demons and having access divination and summoning now. And they save money too , they can play all those zombis as horrors now in 7th ed.

We do not have access to divination outside of the crimson slaughter relic. As far as summoning demons, I don't think this will really be a thing for CSM simply because chaos sorcerers will perils themselves to death so quickly it will neuter the army. With the way perils works for demonology it seems like the only people that can actually use it are demons, and possibly eldar since they can upgrade to ignore perils. I would have assumed that CSM could use malefic without the increased perils and not had access to santic but there seems to be a push to make chaos sorcs and SM librarians more and more alike now for some unfathomable reason.

I seem to recall much grumbling and grousing that CSM did not regain the ability to summon daemons with their last codex....now they have it back, and there has been virtually no rejoicing, just more grumbling and grousing.

Yup. Just like the grumble for no FAQs, and now Grumble FAQS ruined everything!

Its all that Chaos Energy.

I'm just waiting to see if they release one for Crimson Slaughter and their Beasts in a Transport conundrum.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I seem to recall much grumbling and grousing that CSM did not regain the ability to summon daemons with their last codex....now they have it back, and there has been virtually no rejoicing, just more grumbling and grousing.

Because they don't have a carve-out in the Malefic tree that daemons do, which sucks considering i expected CSM to summon daemons too. The best way for pure CSM is Sorceror with PotV in the CS (or WBs if you get what i mean) supplement.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I seem to recall much grumbling and grousing that CSM did not regain the ability to summon daemons with their last codex....now they have it back, and there has been virtually no rejoicing, just more grumbling and grousing.

It's probably because yeah sure CSM can summon it but they are just as bad as summoning daemons as everybody does with the same massive risk of perils. At that point, why really bother?

 Sasori wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
It's really a mixed bag.The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

I should look more into the updated rules. I have 3 decimators and would love to use them.

AV 13/12/11, 5++, Daemonic Resilience, can ignore Weapon Destroyed and Immobilised on a 5+. Siege Claw is S8 AP2 CCW with Shred and Smash. Oh, it can also DS.

My new and improved Decimator longs for some TMC blood.

Don't forget it can burn the occupants of transports it wrecks. And it can get back up after it's wrecked.

If you take it part of a Daemon Codex, and mark it, It benefits from the "Daemon of" rules as well.

OVerall, it's a lot better than it was.

Is it really worth its points cost though? A helbrute costs half as much and has similar cc attacks. Sure it isn't as durable but for the points cost it doesn't seem like the decimator is a bargain. The dual butcher cannon setup is similar to a forge fiend but again more expensive. Although the FF is a HS slot so I guess you could go for 3 of each for a hail of S8 shooting.

Well, you don't want the Decimator for a pure shooty platform. You have better options for that. You generally either want it for wrecking Transports and flaming the insides or wrecking stuff in cc. Take the Soulburner for firing while you move up the field and then get in CC with something.

The Decimator is more than double the cost of a Helbrute, but it is significantly better. It has 5 Attacks base, AV 13 front, a 5++, Daemonic Resilience, and inbuilt Heavy flamers in it's close combat weapons. The biggest issue before was that MCs just made it, their plaything. Now it's got a decent shot.

Also don't forget "Unholy Vigour" - if it's wrecked it can stand back up on a roll of 6 with D3 HPs as well....give it Mark of Nurgle and it gain IWND on top of that. Expensive as heck, but will sure as heck last longer than a Defiler or other AV12 walkers we have.