Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So the heldrake was directly and indirectly nerfed. The indirect nerf came with the changes to vector strike. The direct nerf came from the FAQ limiting the ranged weapons to hullmounted. While I was never against nerfing the heldrake (or increasing its point cost), I am upset it was done without buffing anything. There is somewhat of a general consensus that the best units in the CSM codex are the heldrake and obliterators. Everything else is kind of wimpy or grossly overcosted (175 points for a forgefiend, really? Got Defiler? HQs?). Prior to the new edition CSM codex was hard enough to to field, with players either choosing repetitive lists or choosing to take an almost certain to be weak list. Now it just seems worse.

Am I wrong here? There are some benefits to the new edition, but for each of them I see other armies benefiting in the same or better ways. I honestly think CSM is one of the worst, if not the worst, codexes in the game. Sisters and DA may be worse, but I don't know. What do you all think?

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
So the heldrake was directly and indirectly nerfed. The indirect nerf came with the changes to vector strike. The direct nerf came from the FAQ limiting the ranged weapons to hullmounted. While I was never against nerfing the heldrake (or increasing its point cost), I am upset it was done without buffing anything. There is somewhat of a general consensus that the best units in the CSM codex are the heldrake and obliterators. Everything else is kind of wimpy or grossly overcosted (175 points for a forgefiend, really? Got Defiler? HQs?). Prior to the new edition CSM codex was hard enough to to field, with players either choosing repetitive lists or choosing to take an almost certain to be weak list. Now it just seems worse.

Am I wrong here? There are some benefits to the new edition, but for each of them I see other armies benefiting in the same or better ways. I honestly think CSM is one of the worst, if not the worst, codexes in the game. Sisters and DA may be worse, but I don't know. What do you all think?

How'd they nerf vector strike?

It's only one hit now, not 1+D3. Although it is AP 2, instead of 3.

The new Vector Strike is D3 against Zooming Flyers/Swooping FMCs, though. There's that.

Let's wait some time. Perhaps they will update the FAQ with the turret-mounted designation.

I'm most likely wrong and I don't have my book to hand but aren't flamers in a different section to regular ranged weapons? So that faq refers to the hades cannon? Wishful thinking?

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
Sisters and DA may be worse, but I don't know. What do you all think?

Well, do you think your Chaos Lord is a good and interesting choice ? Now, imagine the same point cost for -1WS, -1S, -1T, maybe -1A (I do not remember), stubborn instead of fearless, no Champion of Chaos special rule, but in exchange getting a 6++, Adamantium Will, and a once-per-game Hatred if you manage to pass a Ld test. Also, access to way less wargear, including no bikes, no jump pack, no 2+ save.
That is the Canoness.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
Sisters and DA may be worse, but I don't know. What do you all think?

Well, do you think your Chaos Lord is a good and interesting choice ? Now, imagine the same point cost for -1WS, -1S, -1T, maybe -1A (I do not remember), stubborn instead of fearless, no Champion of Chaos special rule, but in exchange getting a 6++, Adamantium Will, and a once-per-game Hatred if you manage to pass a Ld test. Also, access to way less wargear, including no bikes, no jump pack, no 2+ save.
That is the Canoness.

You forgot the part where she also is a mostly punchy HQ choice in a shooty army who doesn't mesh with anything else in the army.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
So the heldrake was directly and indirectly nerfed. The indirect nerf came with the changes to vector strike. The direct nerf came from the FAQ limiting the ranged weapons to hullmounted. While I was never against nerfing the heldrake (or increasing its point cost), I am upset it was done without buffing anything. There is somewhat of a general consensus that the best units in the CSM codex are the heldrake and obliterators. Everything else is kind of wimpy or grossly overcosted (175 points for a forgefiend, really? Got Defiler? HQs?). Prior to the new edition CSM codex was hard enough to to field, with players either choosing repetitive lists or choosing to take an almost certain to be weak list. Now it just seems worse.

Am I wrong here? There are some benefits to the new edition, but for each of them I see other armies benefiting in the same or better ways. I honestly think CSM is one of the worst, if not the worst, codexes in the game. Sisters and DA may be worse, but I don't know. What do you all think?

Chaos players will whine about their codex no matter what.

The flaming hellturkey got buffed vs Open topped vehicles

wait the helldrake's flamer is still torrent, isnt it?

Oh and in 7th edition you can roast EVERYONE on a building, not just one level

Wow. Try being a BA player pal. Your army got nerfed??

Black Templars would like to know if you still have your own dex, or just a paragraph of washed out afterthought in somebody elses book?

"My army is bad too so you have no right to complain."

Awesome arguments.

It does suck that chaos which as you say only had a few good units - though I'd add nurgle bikers, certain lords, spawn and plague marines as "good" units, and a couple others as decent - had one of it's better performing units nerfed. The basic problem however is still just that it was a bland 'dex released with poor internal balance in a system fraught with poor external balance.

The Drake will still be the bane of Marines, but just the ones infront of it now instead of with ass fire. With positioning of Torrent, you still get basically 180 degree arc.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Black Templars would like to know if you still have your own dex, or just a paragraph of washed out afterthought in somebody elses book?

Nobody cares.

Wow. Try being a BA player pal. Your army got nerfed??

Already was the worst in 6th, simply stayed at the bottom.

Chaos players will whine about their codex no matter what.

The flaming hellturkey got buffed vs Open topped vehicles

Course nobody is going to really take much helturkeys, what with CD not needing to take some extra CSM anymore, why would they?

I'm just disappointed that they still didn't allow assaulting from transports, would've opened up Berzerkers and Possessed slightly at least.

Now, the only thing stupid is the neck angle they modeled it at, and the fact that I have both drakes looking different directions...

CSM also got buffs to spell familiars, an even better Belkor, and better biomancy. It does not look like much got worse.

I'd measure it from the base of the neck myself. If someone complained, I'd greenstuff a tiny little dot there and say thats the baleflamer and the rest is just for show.

Heldrake took a hit, but also got some bonuses.

It now only explodes on a 7 (or a 6 if you roll poorly).

It can now benefit from Jink if it wants, whereas before it was redundant with it's 5+ invuln.

The Baleflamer can burn units inside open-topped transports.

Can't flamers also Skyfire now, and hit Flyers and FMC's?

So yeah, the Heldrake got a nerf in terms of it's 360' flamer and having a less aggressive vector strike, but it also gained a bit. It's at a nice place now, I think, in terms of cost and effectiveness. Will people stop taking them? I doubt it. Maybe we won't see Heldrake spam, but they will still be around and strong.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Black Templars would like to know if you still have your own dex, or just a paragraph of washed out afterthought in somebody elses book?

Nobody cares.

Source? Or just playing King of the Nerd Forums?

(doesnt expect source, goes back to Ork rumors where actual facts appear daily.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Black Templars would like to know if you still have your own dex, or just a paragraph of washed out afterthought in somebody elses book?

Nobody cares.

Wow. Try being a BA player pal. Your army got nerfed??

Already was the worst in 6th, simply stayed at the bottom.

Chaos players will whine about their codex no matter what.

The flaming hellturkey got buffed vs Open topped vehicles

Course nobody is going to really take much helturkeys, what with CD not needing to take some extra CSM anymore, why would they?

I'm just disappointed that they still didn't allow assaulting from transports, would've opened up Berzerkers and Possessed slightly at least.

Yeah...but we went from the bottom of the barrel to somewhere under the floor xD

 AdeptSister wrote:
CSM also got buffs to spell familiars, an even better Belkor, and better biomancy. It does not look like much got worse.

I agree on the Familiar buff but Be'lakor got worse. They took away puppet master and nerfed Terrify and Hallucination and everyone got Biomancy so that's not a buff.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
CSM also got buffs to spell familiars, an even better Belkor, and better biomancy. It does not look like much got worse.

I agree on the Familiar buff but Be'lakor got worse. They took away puppet master and nerfed Terrify and Hallucination and everyone got Biomancy so that's not a buff.

Be'lakor could be interpreted as getting a buff, as he gets a guaranteed Invisibility and Shroud, which are busted strong.

CSM are still playable, in fact still pretty strong. You actually have to employ tactic now instead of spamming hellchickens.

News flash: the helldrake originally was NOT a turreted weapon - they straight up FAQ'd it to change that. It was powerful before that buff because it is really ,really hard to hide from a torrent flamer especially when its AP3. Giving it turret was the most broken thing they could have done to it.

And before you go "You play tau and youre telling me i need to actually try tactic? YOU PLAY TAU!" i dont do any tau cheese, in fact i play them in a rather unorthodox fashion. The few nerfs tau got affected me zilch because i never did it anyway.

I just want new marine scuplts with more options on the sprue.

Walkers are pretty decent now. Troops exist to sit on objectives and score while everyone else does the heavy lifting.

CSM have access to 8+ different kinds of walkers in every variety of cost and power, not including superheavies. They also have access to one of the cheapest, most cost-efficient troop choices in the game.

Battle-Forged CSM lists can run 200pts of troops and fill the rest up with walkers. Walkers raining from the skies, walkers infiltrating your homes, walkers traveling in packs and walkers line-dancing across the deployment zone.

Walkers.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

And before you go "You play tau and youre telling me i need to actually try tactic? YOU PLAY TAU!" i dont do any tau cheese, in fact i play them in a rather unorthodox fashion. The few nerfs tau got affected me zilch because i never did it anyway.

Worst. Argument. Ever.

rollawaythestone wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
CSM also got buffs to spell familiars, an even better Belkor, and better biomancy. It does not look like much got worse.

I agree on the Familiar buff but Be'lakor got worse. They took away puppet master and nerfed Terrify and Hallucination and everyone got Biomancy so that's not a buff.

Be'lakor could be interpreted as getting a buff, as he gets a guaranteed Invisibility and Shroud, which are busted strong.

And it's harder to bounce his skull off the ground (not like many people were planning on landing him and assaulting with him afterall).

 Vineheart01 wrote:
CSM are still playable, in fact still pretty strong. You actually have to employ tactic now instead of spamming hellchickens.

News flash: the helldrake originally was NOT a turreted weapon - they straight up FAQ'd it to change that. It was powerful before that buff because it is really ,really hard to hide from a torrent flamer especially when its AP3. Giving it turret was the most broken thing they could have done to it.

And before you go "You play tau and youre telling me i need to actually try tactic? YOU PLAY TAU!" i dont do any tau cheese, in fact i play them in a rather unorthodox fashion. The few nerfs tau got affected me zilch because i never did it anyway.

All it really means is that we will see less CD lists take sorc/heldrake/cultists, and more CSM dropping in the charts, before they were rather low when it came to tournament winnings and as a result will simply drop further. Though with Be'lakor we might just see it continue though.

It's very likely we will just see less CSM allies and more pure CD due to their exponential buff with malefic, with tau/eldar/SM filling up the top slots as usual.

Though I shall continue to play my Host, if only because I enjoy the new ability to take both a slaanesh power and the primaris.

The nerf to Hull Mounted is rather strong. flamers even with torrent CANT HIT outside that arc (blast, large blast can, template cant) so you can only hit and wound in a very VERY small area.

if you want alternatives that are 10x more killy now, ally in some guard artilery an example would be, 2 psykers, min troops and 2-3 wvyerns. will cost you a little more than a drake, and you can take 3 detachments of them woot woot.
or you can take daemon allies, and up to 4 Tz heralds and 1 pink horrors per alli detachment.

sure its not the drake... but i can assure you that the wyverns will kill 3x what the drake can... maybe more now that the weapon is hull mounted

 Reptile(5iN) wrote:
I'm most likely wrong and I don't have my book to hand but aren't flamers in a different section to regular ranged weapons? So that faq refers to the hades cannon? Wishful thinking?

Flamers are measured from the base of a model, but does that override the part were vehicle weapons are measured from the weapon itself?