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 ansacs wrote:


I would recommend crones. They have some of the best haywire delivery in the game.

After that Electroshock grubs.

Generally, I use my anti-air units against flyers, but maybe that's just me. Egrubs are useful, but they can't be spammed in the quantities needed to be relied on.

Some of these comments are ridiculous

 ansacs wrote:


I would recommend crones. They have some of the best haywire delivery in the game.

Best Haywire in the game? What, 4 shots the entire match, spread out over 2 turns, each at BS3 aka a 50% chance of missing. Just because it has high range and speed doesn't make it worth actually delivering. Crone is a vector strike platform with a close range flamer designed for late game assaults once the missiles are done. He got NERFED in about 5 different ways this edition. Shame because I just made 2 of them as well.



Carnifexes and MCs with smash in general are terrible tank hunters, they have no mobility and will only catch the vehicles fed to it by poor decisions. CRushing claws are the most unreliable upgrade in the dex, and that's saying something in the a book with the Maw Claws of Thyrax lol. Smash is important, for putting out a threat bubble and at least giving Nids a map control bubble where our AT is seriously lacking (fairly certain Nids has the worst AT in the game). However as mentioned this somewhat still exists , a lot of rear armour is still food to MC charges w/o smashing. I don't think it's as terribly unbalanced and that the sky is falling for Nids tho. I think the problems lie more with our codex and lack of mobility (drop pods) or a fast MC. Something like the mauler fiend rule would have been a nice way to make haruspex have a niche, we are the slowest codex on the game.

Oh well, we are Nids and we will adapt, just as we have adapted to the slews of negative changes that have come our way in the last 3 years. Carnifexes (dakka versions) really should be an auto include now, if they weren't already a staple for you. I'll be running 4.

 ansacs wrote:
I would recommend crones. They have some of the best haywire delivery in the game.

Really? 4 single shot missiles that you can only fire 2 per turn and are firing from a Bs3 platform that costs 155pts? On average you need 1.8 crones to kill a 3HP tank with the tentaclids and it'll take them 2 turns after they arrive from reserve. It also means you are wasting "seeking" shots on something that's not a flyer.

Unless there's something new in 7th edition that I'm missing they don't really seem like a great anti-tank option to me.

But really, smash for nids was good. Avoiding 1 or 2 MC's with your vehicles should not be hard (either kill them or just move away from them or bubble wrap them). Avoiding lots of MC's SHOULD be a slightly more difficult thing to do. The only real slightly powerful thing with FMC's with smash, but now you have to land before you charge that tactic is gone, so the smash nerf makes even less sense.

I really don't think anyone was crying out that Tyranids were overpowered before other than the Skyblight swarm, so at this point any nerf is a bad nerf for them.

 Nem wrote:
People just want to line their tanks up, never move with them,

Then they will lose in 7th edition. That's what Tactical Objective are for.

It's funny really. GW only nerfs themselves here.
I would buy up a significant tyranid force, save for the fact that I hate nids with guns. I like the nids in the fluff, who bite and tear and swarm. That's just not represented in game at all.
I won't start an army I have to play a way I don't want to.

If they had balanced the codexes out a little better so that someone could play whatever style they wanted and still be competitive, they might sell a lot more models, at least to folks like myself.

Kain wrote:I have my old Genestealer Codex.

Stormicus Trooperus they were not.

In any case, with Lords of War, people aren't talking about worrying about just LRBTs anymore, but Shadowswords, Warhounds, Stompaz, and Revenants.

And most melee TMCs suffer from problems of delivery.

The fastest they ever get is fleet, and with only one breaking the mold of T6 3+ save, they need to hug cover at all costs and are heavily dependent on Venomthropes, Regeneration, and Catalyst to survive.

The last bit I wouldn't mind if we had mutations again so I could spend the points to improve my melee fexes to T7 and 2+ armor if I knew I was going to want them to go into melee.

In addition, while Haywire remains a strong option, more traditional Tyranid vehicle ranged killing systems; like Rupture Cannons, Impaler Cannons, and HVCs have been rendered into bad jokes (and they already sucked before hand), much like how Krak Missiles have now become next to useless at killing tanks in good time and Lascannons need to be spammed to do anything (essentially meaning that traditional anti-tank options are slowly being phased out in favour of HP stripping all the time).

I liked being able to have Carnifexes with HVCs fairly trade shots with tanks in Dawn of War 2, and I find the Rupture cannon to be a massive disappointment to what it's lore paints it as (baneblade killer my ass). But this is more a general complaint regarding GW's insistence on slowly making HP stripping the only way to kill vehicles as the damage chart makes penetrations less valuable with each edition since 5th.

True the old genestealer cults were not. However genestealer cults could have been well trained or poorly trained entirely dependent on the genes you stole really. I would actually recommend AM codex if you wanted a genestealer cult with mostly conscripts to represent the majority of rabble but an elite core would not be entirely beyond reason to represent the 4th generation...heck even the orders make sense as the gestalt genestealer mind at work.

I do see your frustration about most of the tyranid monstrous biocannons. They are very like krak missiles with low fire rate and poor AP. That is actually why I didn't even mention them as they are so bad.

AesSedai wrote:Generally, I use my anti-air units against flyers, but maybe that's just me. Egrubs are useful, but they can't be spammed in the quantities needed to be relied on.

You may want to rethink some of that strategy. Crones' vector strikes are AP2 1d3 against flyers not which is pretty good against most flyers. There is also the fact that the most abusive flyers (the vendetta and baleflamer heldrake) took a few nerfs or a huge price increase. Combined with the crone not taking as many grounding checks and skyfire weapons being less useful as interceptor no long allows full BS against ground tragets you will probably see less AA and killing the flyers is less of a priority. This means you can afford to use the haywire on AV13-14 walkers or landraiders.


I think we can agree though that AV12- and AV10 rear armour is not really the problem. The real problem is the super heavies and landraiders. Killing these in melee with a TMC used to be trivial. There was no forethought you just got a TMC to get it's attacks in and you blew it up. Now carnifex and/or crushing claws TMC can still handle it in melee and in the nids codex the ranged options are essentially haywire (as I agree with Kain the other anti AV weapons are aweful). However now that GMC are in the game and D weapons took huge nerfs you nids actually have some pretty good tank killers in their GMC where the harridan has become almost impossible to kill in a single game. Actually with the new nerfs to D weapons all of the GMC are extremely difficult to kill.

Now nids did get access to all sorts of allies and fortifications. I have seen some really great ADL, icarus lascannon, bastion, and skyshield creations that are very nid (and am extremely jealous of their talent). Some of the fortifications could really aid nids against vehicles and in general. A firestorm redoubt would handle flyers well and let your crones focus on ground vehicles. Ammo dumps would improve your weapons accuracy. The best piece of terrain the nids have access to has to be the void shield generator. Now that blasts are resolved as a single hit against the shield the nids can gain a lot of protection from shooting to close those carnifex into CC and to get those FMC flying.

The very fact that as a Nids player you're forced to use a supposedly anti-air unit (the crone) in a very suboptimal fashion in order to have a chance at reliably killing AV14 at range should be the only indicator you need of how badly Nids AT sucks. Also, even with 2 Crones firing every tentaclid they have at a LR with zero cover or invuln saves, you're unlikely to strip enough HP from the landraider to kill it.

Hive guard haywire guns are awful. They remove the only real benefit to using hive guard (hiding and ignoring LoS and cover), sacrifice 6" of range and are a small blast on a BS3 model. Furthermore, they're a paid upgrade.

Electroshock grubs aren't horrible, but at flamer template ranges they barely qualify as a legitimate ranged AT option. Also they're typically taken on the MCs that smart players stay away from to begin with.

As a Tyranid player I shouldn't have to use machines or talk to my dinner.

Tyranids shouldn't need allies or fortifications to compete.

In order to kill a LR with Hive Crones you are going to need probably three Crones firing at it with 8-10 Tentaclids over the course of 2-3 turns...How is THAT even considered DECENT at killing a Land Raider?

Ever since the new Tyranid codex dropped people are talking about how awesome Hive Crones and Mawlocs are and I just have no idea why, I mean I could see why Crones were awesome in 6th with the FMC spam you could pull but now in 7th, with the changes the MCs/Vehicles they are even less appealing than before.

A single LR or Super Heavy is going to be a monumental task for Tyranids to kill, forget about facing multiples of them.

I can't get reliable anti-tank out of the codex, so I've just started taking my barbed heirodule along.

It's not a great super heavy (basically a shootier wraithknight that costs over twice as much), but it does fill the ranged anti-tank role nicely.

 Flinty wrote:

Shadowmyth515 wrote:

I am glad they made vehicles a little harder to kill, they really needed to but.. to render 95% of ther nid codex useless to av13-14... kind of irritating. I get that a landraider is like "THE" big daddy of tanks... but at the average cost of what? 265 ish points.. my trygon prime (or other mc) who is VERY c lose if not MORE to the point cost should have a semi reliable chance to muck one up.

Taken the other way though, how much chance does a Land Raider have to kill a trygon? I imagine that the heavy bolter shots will ping off the thing and it would take several turns of lascannon fire to take out the Trygon, compared to the previous edition where you're telling me the trygon would one-shot the land raider half the time.

The chance of a Land Raider to kill a Trygon?
Land Raiders have 2 Twin-linked Lascannons, yes?
So the Tyrgon takes at least 2 turns of moving up towards the Land Raider, taking Lascannon fire the whole time.
Then on the third turn the Trygon assault the Land Raider, and takes off a single hull point with the new Smash rules.
The Land Raider then rolls back and fires again.
Up comes the Trygon and gets lucky, hitting with it's single Smash attack again and stripping off another hull point.
The Land Raider decides to roll away and fire at the Trygon
At this point the Land Raider has had 4-5 turns of firing two Twin-linked Lascannons at BS 4 at the Trygon, the Trygon is dead and the Land Raider still has 2 hull points left.

 ansacs wrote:
You may want to rethink some of that strategy. Crones' vector strikes are AP2 1d3 against flyers not which is pretty good against most flyers. There is also the fact that the most abusive flyers (the vendetta and baleflamer heldrake) took a few nerfs or a huge price increase. Combined with the crone not taking as many grounding checks and skyfire weapons being less useful as interceptor no long allows full BS against ground tragets you will probably see less AA and killing the flyers is less of a priority. This means you can afford to use the haywire on AV13-14 walkers or landraiders.

I still don't see how you can think Crones are good at taking out heavy land vehicles. It will, on average, take 3 Hive Crones firing for 2 turns to kill a Land Raider (assuming none of them die and they use up almost all their haywire missiles), that's 465pts worth of Hive Crones and the LR doing 3 to 5 turns worth of damage before hand.

That's terrible odds, waste of points.

If a 'nid player invested in only a couple of MC's with the old smash rules, your vehicles should be relatively safe because you can just avoid combat with them. If a 'nid player invested in a lot of MC's, then yes, they should be killing a few of your vehicles because they've spent a large number of points on having a wider threat range.

That's the problem with taking out vehicles in CC, a very limited threat range. It wasn't the smash rule that was terribly over powered, it was your inability to play against them.

If our now diminished options include expecting Crones to take out heavy vehicles or taking allies/fortifications to do anti-tank work, umm, yeah, I'm mildly annoyed at that thank you very much.

 ansacs wrote:
You have a whole series of haywire weapons for shooty anti armour.

If you want to melee the tank open and it is AV13-14 it is a landraider (likely filled with a nasty melee unit) or a walker (probably knight level). It probably is not advisable but if you really want to then you should take carnifex broods would tear any vehicle apart. Keep in mind that MC are all tank hunter in melee and AP2. So against AV11- vehicles all of the S6 MC will handily destroy their vehicles. If you want all your MC to be able to scratch the paint on AV12 properly then you will need adrenal glands. Also crushing claws are amazing against vehicles, this is how tervis do it.

Honestly though why should every single one of your MC be able to tear a knight titan or landraider a new one because it got to attack? It was almost comical how bad most vehicles were against MC and nids in particular.

+1. Everything doesn't need to be good at killing everything you know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously. We're mad we can't reliably kill AV 14 at range and CC. Think about that. So AV14 is actually good then. Hmm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fos Kenos wrote:
It's funny really. GW only nerfs themselves here.
I would buy up a significant tyranid force, save for the fact that I hate nids with guns. I like the nids in the fluff, who bite and tear and swarm. That's just not represented in game at all.
I won't start an army I have to play a way I don't want to.

If they had balanced the codexes out a little better so that someone could play whatever style they wanted and still be competitive, they might sell a lot more models, at least to folks like myself.

Agreed. They could make every faction desirable. But that's too tough (play testing and all). Really makes me wonder what the rules secs do with their time. Seriously, I'm perplexed.

Everything doesn't need to be good at killing everything, but anti-tank units should probably be good at killing tanks.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Everything doesn't need to be good at killing everything, but anti-tank units should probably be good at killing tanks.

Have an exalt. Seriously, every time a book comes out our AT gets weaker. "Hey, let's drop BS on hive guard, reduce the AP for warp lances for no apparent reason AND make them easier to deny, and make vector strikes less than half as effective vs ground vehicles, and while we're at it let's nerf the gak out of smash too." Good thing we have lascannons and melta weapons . . . oh wait. This is a legitimate problem, and handwaving and saying that we don't really need to have a way to deal with the AV 14 vehicles (Land Raiders, many of the Lords of War . . .) is frankly insulting.

 Lobukia wrote:


Everything doesn't need to be good at killing everything you know.

Obviously... and I haven't seen anyone advocating for omnipotent units. So, I wonder what your point is.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Everything doesn't need to be good at killing everything, but anti-tank units should probably be good at killing tanks.

This.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Everything doesn't need to be good at killing everything, but anti-tank units should probably be good at most tanks.

Fixed

From 5th to 6th MC received a huge buff... unbalancing huge... now its come down to a middle ground. The best armour in the game is what you're weak at... now you're back to all previous editions where you join all the other factions at AV14 being something you plan around instead of fly up to, assault and lols.

My poor khorne CSM are worse off and I still don't see them being that bad for anything other than trying for top tournament tables (which, lets face it, most codices never do). Look, I get that you're aren't as good as you were before, but with the new order of operations on objectives, people have to come to you now. That makes assault easier. You still have dakkafexes and zoanthropes are the way. Can't run the same force you did before? Well this is 40k. That's happened almost every edition and/or codex chance since 1994... 20 years warning and history should have been warning enough. You've got a respawning formation of troops and some neat tricks and formations that others (CSM) would love to have. That and making everyone eat their perils while close to you can add up fast.

 Lobukia wrote:


My poor khorne CSM are worse off and I still don't see them being that bad for anything other than trying for top tournament tables (which, lets face it, most codices never do). Look, I get that you're aren't as good as you were before, but with the new order of operations on objectives, people have to come to you now. That makes assault easier. You still have dakkafexes and zoanthropes are the way. Can't run the same force you did before? Well this is 40k. That's happened almost every edition and/or codex chance since 1994... 20 years warning and history should have been warning enough. You've got a respawning formation of troops and some neat tricks and formations that others (CSM) would love to have. That and making everyone eat their perils while close to you can add up fast.

This thread is focused on the changes to smash and reliable AT access for Nids. Most of would you said above has little to no relevance to the topic. If your contention is that zoanthropes satisfy this role, we can debate that (I'm not even going to touch the dakkafex mention). If you want to compare CSM to Nids on the point of reliable anti-tank weapons you may want to consider CSMs ability to take melta weapons. We are not discussing tournament performance, the history of 40k, nor making people eat perils.

In 5th edition, the edition commonly known as vehiclehammer, where vehicles were the most powerful they have ever been, a Trygon had about a 50/50 chance of taking out a Land Raider once it assaulted it and significantly higher chance against AV 13, AV 12 would be regularly annihilated.

Now it has a slightly higher than 6% chance against AV 14 and something like a 9% chance and against AV 13 and against AV 12 it's about 13%.

So it's not only our laughable inability to take down high AV targets, it's the fact that only light vehicles need to be actually concerned about Tyranids in close combat.

Oh no, your Chaos Space Marines with their easy access to Lascannons and Meltas, I feel so sad for them.

Dakkafices - Completely unable to scratch AV 13 or higher in shooting, slow moving, but thanks to strength 9 actually able to deal with vehicles in close combat if they actually get there, though it generally takes 2 to take down a single Land Raider. One of the last decent units we have left and need to be spammed to prevent anyone with even a basic knowledge of target priority taking them out before they get close enough.

Zoanthropes - Fragile and short ranged, the removal of Mycetic Spores, Warp Lance nerf, and changes to psychic powers and psychic shooting attacks over the editions have made them very unreliable anti-vehicle units.

Shadows in the Warp - Thanks to the new Psychic mechanics it no longer makes people more likely to perils or reduces their chances of getting a psychic power off.

 PrinceRaven wrote:


Shadows in the Warp - Thanks to the new Psychic mechanics it no longer makes people more likely to perils or reduces their chances of getting a psychic power off.

Yes it does... leadership tests to see if you suffer many of the perils, -3 effects that I'm sure

 Lobukia wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
You have a whole series of haywire weapons for shooty anti armour.

If you want to melee the tank open and it is AV13-14 it is a landraider (likely filled with a nasty melee unit) or a walker (probably knight level). It probably is not advisable but if you really want to then you should take carnifex broods would tear any vehicle apart. Keep in mind that MC are all tank hunter in melee and AP2. So against AV11- vehicles all of the S6 MC will handily destroy their vehicles. If you want all your MC to be able to scratch the paint on AV12 properly then you will need adrenal glands. Also crushing claws are amazing against vehicles, this is how tervis do it.

Honestly though why should every single one of your MC be able to tear a knight titan or landraider a new one because it got to attack? It was almost comical how bad most vehicles were against MC and nids in particular.

+1. Everything doesn't need to be good at killing everything you know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously. We're mad we can't reliably kill AV 14 at range and CC. Think about that. So AV14 is actually good then. Hmm.

Wait so AV14 being unkillable is a good thing? Maybe that's what's wrong with all these Tyranid players, their perspective is warped! Yes it all just became so clear to me, they don't have any AV14 and they can't kill any AV14, No wonder they don't understand how good these changes are!!


Hmmm, couldn't possibly be that there is some inherit balances issues somewhere in there could it?



Seriously, a Landraider has to spend multiple rounds in combat, with multiple MC's, to go down. This will only ever happen by choice.

Smash changes do next to nothing to hamper the actual tournament dominating MC's like Riptide and WK, they only hamper the AT of Tyranids, aka the army with already the worst AT by a wide margin even with smash left as was. This is not a balanced change for Nids, but as I said before - I think the issue is not with the rules - smash is now a bit more balanced for other armies, it just leaves Tyranids with nothing - the issue lies with our codex. We need some decent AT unit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobukia wrote:
Can't run the same force you did before? Well this is 40k. That's happened almost every edition and/or codex chance since 1994... 20 years warning and history should have been warning enough.

This is stupid. Or perhaps just short-sightedness from someone unfamiliar with the codex. You are talking like its whinging because we have to go out and spend more money to switch to a different heavy AT option.

We don't have other heavy AT options.





Zoanthrope has 18" range, no mobility, and now lands it Warp Lance like less than 1/8 times IIRC. Don't even bother describing this as an AT unit, he's taken for Synapse and Psyker utility.

Vektor Strike now does 1 hit, can't be used in successive turns against the same target, and still needs a 6 to GLANCE a landraider, and only for the Crone. VS'ing heavy vehicles is no longer plausible, just off the positioning requirements alone this is going to do more damage to you, than the 1/6 chance of losing a single hullpoint will do to a LR or Knight.

Heavy Venom Cannon's are a joke at 20 points for a single shot blast, only available to BS3 units, and still wounds a Land Raider on a 5+. Here's an idea of how it plays out - you would need to HIT a landraider 12 times to bring it it down. This is the equivalent of taking about 24 HVC shots. Cheapest available on a Carnifex, 4 HVC carnifexes (clocking in at a total of 560 points of dedicated AT shooting) will take 6 turns to kill a single Landraider. Assuming no techmarine. Don't even pretend these are going to do the job, even massed.
2x Rupture Cannon Tyrannofex's will do the job in 4 turns, but the trade-off is they don't come in a large blast. They are equally as bad as HVC's.


Our Haywire options are:
-1- Thorax grubs (which everyone is taking wherever possible), and while these strip 1 HP on a 2+ and are always worth the 10 points, they are only usable at template range, 1 shot max a turn, on a minimum 200 pt platform.
-2- Hive Crone's tentaclids hit twice PER GAME. And wound on a 2+. I guess massed Hive Crone's is our second best anti-tank option. 465 points to kill a Landraider in two turns. And then do absolutely nothing except fly around with a 1 hit Vektor Strike, or attempt to survive in a full turn of shooting in jump mode to make it into assault. Which you probably won't. And if your opponent didn't bring AV14? These things just ate a bunch of your points to spread 5 hullpoints around a couple of Rhinos.
-3- The other option is a squad of Shock Gun Hive Guard, who at 165 points for 3 18" range BS3 small Haywire Blasts, is the definition of unreliable. Unfortunately he is likely now our best option. only because he can take his unreliable shots more than 2 turns a game. Trades a large amount of mobility and range on the Hive Crone, for a small amount of firepower and survivability. Probably a necessary trade though, as 2 squads take just as long to kill a LR if it decides to sit in their threat range for multiple turns, but at least this option is 150 pts cheaper than 3x Crone.


There is literally no other options. How do we deal with AV14? Just commenting "hurrdurr just take your Haywire units hurrdurr" without doing the maths makes you look silly. None of them can actually reliably do their role, and even IF (stressing the if) luck is on your side and you do manage to bring one down, it was at the cost of nearly double the LR's price in points, for a unit that is likely too niche for every other situation. If its overcosted for killing AV14 you best believe it's overcosted for popping Rhinos.

Now I'm not saying smash was a reliable way of killing LandRaiders - but it did give you a lot of map control and put a big bubble of "keep LR back from here". This is how it should be against the swarm. We couldn't straight out kill it but we could do a great job of hampering its mobility & effectiveness. This is no longer the case, it can practically fly directly through the middle of our army with impunity now. I believe it Takes 4 MC's 3 turns to kill a LR in assault Added bonus is that at least 2 of your MC's are in the air, need to stay there, and if even if they did want to come down and assault they now have to wait a turn.

Tyranid is now completely unbalanced v any heavy armour. It's not really a debate, its a fact. Show me a sensible unit in the codex to deal with a LR and tell me how, rather than just saying the names of different mechanics without actually applying how it works in our codex. The only plausible thing I can think of is spamming Carnifexes. Which I will be doing. This sucks for an army where everything important is in the same slot though.

 Lobukia wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:


Shadows in the Warp - Thanks to the new Psychic mechanics it no longer makes people more likely to perils or reduces their chances of getting a psychic power off.

Yes it does... leadership tests to see if you suffer many of the perils, -3 effects that I'm sure

What I'm saying is it doesn't make a Perils more likely to happen, it only increases the chance of a failed leadership check on 3 of the Perils results (granted, failing a leadership on a Perils roll of a 1 is gonna suck for expensive multiwound psykers).

Also, SHUPPET - *claps, exalts*.

LRC is probably ignoreable on some levels.
But my bigger issue as Tyranid Player is AV13 walkers, hell, even AV12 walkers like maulerfiends are a nightmare at 2/3 the cost.

A Soul Grinder/Imperial Knight/Furiso Dread/Ironclad Dread will literally tear through a nid army. The funny part is that those walkers above are in some ways more mobile than my Tyranids. A slaaneshi grinder has fleet+3". Maulerfiend & IK moves 12".
Both dreads can come down in Pods.

Sure smash might need some nerf, but this is incredibly excessive.
I can understand a nerf to anti-tanks (smash/vector) or a buff to vehicles (scoring/vehicle dmg table), but both together while Wraithknights/Dreadknights escape scotfree is really disheartening especially on how highly reliant Tyranids are on MCs. At least the Riptide still offers firepower and utility.

 Lobukia wrote:
You've got a respawning formation of troops and some neat tricks and formations that others (CSM) would love to have.

Well right now, Tyranids would love to have just Obliterators, or Predators, or Havocs, or Demonic Possession Vindicators, or Biomancy MC's, or maybe a Land Raider of our own. Hell I'd even be satisfied with a Rhino full of melta-Chosen. I think even spamming Helbrutes with TL-Lascannons is a more cost effective way of dealing with AV14 than anything we have. In fact don't you have a formation of your own, that deepstrikes 3 of them? Wait don't you have a dataslate for Belakor? And Cypher?


Stop being ridiculous. There is nothing that CSM struggles to deal with as much as Tyranids struggle with AV14. You also have plenty of your own tasty units/tricks, about 1/2 as many unplayable models as we do, and far less reliance on a single mechanic/group of playable units. Coming in here with no real knowledge on the army, acting like the nerf hit us all equally just because the two armies share Smash users and Vektor Strikers. I also play a CSM army. It's not even comparable.

 SHUPPET wrote:
The only plausible thing I can think of is spamming Carnifexes. Which I will be doing. This sucks for an army where everything important is in the same slot though.

Agree with all you've said. The only decent option is really Carni spam. 1 or 2 Carnies is pretty useless because they're easy to avoid, you need several units of 2-3 Carnies to have any threat to vehicles.

And as someone mentioned, it's not just AV14 that's the problem, we really don't have awesome options for lower armour either. Rending AV10-13 rear armour vehicles to death with S4 models takes a large investment and AV12/13 walkers are going to be a giant pain in the arse to bring down as well.

Army level rock-paper-scissors has always annoyed me, it's one thing to say X unit is the counter to Y unit, but when it becomes X army is the counter to Y army you know it's gotten a bit stupid, and now we're reaching the point where armour is the hard counter to an entire Tyranid army.