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Well since 6th edition rules dropped... Nids took a huge hit
then our "amazing" codex dropped and they really took advantage of us
now that 7th edition is out they seemed to have run out of lube so its even worse....

Smash has been reduced to a wopping ONE attack rather than half.... OUCH
I understand destroying vehicles were a bit... too easy for us to drop.. but seriously?

Most vehicles are no issue still as we can hull point them to death...
my issue comes in with vehicles at av 13-14

Most models in the tyranid codex cant really phase this reliably (exception of Haruspex and crushing carnifex models)
Take the trygon (or prime) for instance.. used to have a 43% (ish) chance to drop a landraider with its attacks., and I mean EXPLODE. not just Destroy.
NOW its around 3.5% Not to mention we cant even reliably HP it to death because we still need smash on almost all of our models just to be able to glance or pen av 13-14

I am glad they made vehicles a little harder to kill, they really needed to but.. to render 95% of ther nid codex useless to av13-14... kind of irritating. I get that a landraider is like "THE" big daddy of tanks... but at the average cost of what? 265 ish points.. my trygon prime (or other mc) who is VERY c lose if not MORE to the point cost should have a semi reliable chance to muck one up.

Any other dex really take a crushing blow like this? And what do you think is a viable way to overcome this with the nid army.
I have a Haruspex and yeah... he can still open one fairly well which is great.. I have a t fex for some ranged ability to shed hull points on it till it dies... I suppose warp lance?

OHH and 2nd question am I able to fire the same psychic power multiple times per model per phase?
Like if I get lucky and get warp lance on my flyrants can I fire it twice in the same turn form the same model? I dont see a clarification otherwise.

How do yall feel a bout the new effects of SITW ... kind of useless unless they fail their manifesting powers and have to role a leadership.. but might be sort of helpful in that regard....

Smash needed a nerf, but as usual GW didn't understand why or how to to it.

Smash's problem was that it could be used against all targets at full WS and I, and that +A modifiers were added after the number of attacks were halved. This allowed every MC in the game to suddenly throw out S10 AP2 attacks that would ID most non-MC's (and even demon princes) and absolute crush walkers with no contest, and of course anything with a deamon weapon would elect to always smash with an avalanche of S10 AP2.

This also devalued the S stat for all MC's that were S5-S9, with a cheap, low strength MC being just a good vs many things as a more expensive, high strength MC; a tomb spider could hit just as hard as a carnifex.

The new smash now not only devalues the Strength stat, but the Attacks stat as well!


The correct solution would have been to make x2 Strength portion of smash to only work when attacking vehicles, and also drop the MC down to I1 and perhaps WS1 as well to represent the attacks being slower and more clumsy due to the effort required. This would make it so vehicles would still be torn apart, walkers would at least get a swing in before being gibbed, and the value of the MC's S and A stats would be preserved against most targets.

I like your idea, Toburk. I'd add that AP2 is only for Smash as well.

Look on the bright side - Riptides aren't going to slaughter t5 MCs anymore...

I 100% agree smash was OP. it was insane. No vehicle stood a chance against a trygon prime for instance.
4 smash attacks pretty outrageous at str 10 ap1.. crazy

Smash would be great as a use only against targets with an armor value.

one attack str10 ap1 with no penalties to ws. MAYBE reduce initiative to 1 (even though I dont really like that because 90% of the time having initiative one wouldnt matter. it would only ever matter against Walkers.)

I dont think my combat god monstrous creature should have a reduced WS when swinging at a giant tank or fortifications.... Not like they are agile targets.

Ummm, so yeah. Tyranids were my second, fun army, and I've been having success/fun with them. But now, save for Warp Blast, what do we do against vehicles? And Crushing Claws can only be taken on like, 3 models? ! of which I don't take often, the other I don't want near the enemy, and the other doesn't move fast, and would then lose options for guns. I might just end up selling my bids now, even as a fun army they're much less playable. OH, and the Maelstrom of war missions are no fun with them either.

 Vector Strike wrote:
I like your idea, Toburk. I'd add that AP2 is only for Smash as well.

MCs have always ignored armored saves or had crazy modifiers against armor saves since I started playing (before the Tau were even a thing).

It would also make TMCs suck against infantry rather than vehicles.

But hey, GW has all these flyrant and harpy/hive crone/gargoyle models to sell you!

Just buy this dataslate too so you can spam them and remember to never, ever assault with your Tyranid army, one of the most close combat oriented armies in the universe.

#ForgingTheNarrative

#FairAndBalanced

#FluffMatters

 Kain wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
I like your idea, Toburk. I'd add that AP2 is only for Smash as well.

MCs have always ignored armored saves or had crazy modifiers against armor saves since I started playing (before the Tau were even a thing).

It would also make TMCs suck against infantry rather than vehicles.

But hey, GW has all these flyrant and harpy/hive crone/gargoyle models to sell you!

Just buy this dataslate too so you can spam them and remember to never, ever assault with your Tyranid army, one of the most close combat oriented armies in the universe.

#ForgingTheNarrative

#FairAndBalanced

#FluffMatters

This post made my day, good sir.

 Toburk wrote:
Smash needed a nerf, but as usual GW didn't understand why or how to to it.

Smash's problem was that it could be used against all targets at full WS and I, and that +A modifiers were added after the number of attacks were halved. This allowed every MC in the game to suddenly throw out S10 AP2 attacks that would ID most non-MC's (and even demon princes) and absolute crush walkers with no contest, and of course anything with a deamon weapon would elect to always smash with an avalanche of S10 AP2.

This also devalued the S stat for all MC's that were S5-S9, with a cheap, low strength MC being just a good vs many things as a more expensive, high strength MC; a tomb spider could hit just as hard as a carnifex.

The new smash now not only devalues the Strength stat, but the Attacks stat as well!


The correct solution would have been to make x2 Strength portion of smash to only work when attacking vehicles, and also drop the MC down to I1 and perhaps WS1 as well to represent the attacks being slower and more clumsy due to the effort required. This would make it so vehicles would still be torn apart, walkers would at least get a swing in before being gibbed, and the value of the MC's S and A stats would be preserved against most targets.

Well put, good sir.

I would say you wouldnt even be allowed to do it against Walkers since the logic for not allowing smash attacks against MC would apply - theyre fast enough and nimble enough to move out of the way. You arent going to deal heavier damage without pulling your arm/weapon back further, which gives more reaction time.

i probably wont ever Smash again, then again my riptide only does it against vehicles since he either never faces anything else, or smashing wont help the situation at all (tarpits....T6+ models....etc). My 3-4 S6 attacks that are still AP2 are more likely to wreck or even explode a vehicle's rear armor than a single S10 rerollable pen. If it was AP1, i could see it being valuable.

It's almost as if Tyranids don't have ready access to Haywire and plasma guns...

 DarknessEternal wrote:
It's almost as if Tyranids don't have ready access to Haywire guns...

It's almost like I dislike an army known for constant mutation and adaptation on the fly in the background being shoe-horned into a handful of options, almost all of which are shooting rather than assaulty like the Tyranids should be if I want to win.

And it's almost like this isn't a transparent attempt to force you to buy their shiny new (and overpriced) tyranid FMC models and dataslates so you can pay your way to victory.

Shadowmyth515 wrote:

I am glad they made vehicles a little harder to kill, they really needed to but.. to render 95% of ther nid codex useless to av13-14... kind of irritating. I get that a landraider is like "THE" big daddy of tanks... but at the average cost of what? 265 ish points.. my trygon prime (or other mc) who is VERY c lose if not MORE to the point cost should have a semi reliable chance to muck one up.

Taken the other way though, how much chance does a Land Raider have to kill a trygon? I imagine that the heavy bolter shots will ping off the thing and it would take several turns of lascannon fire to take out the Trygon, compared to the previous edition where you're telling me the trygon would one-shot the land raider half the time.

Tyranids have *always* had a weak spot vs heavy armor. Before smash existed, the s10 rupture cannon and s9 carnifex and s9 HVC was it. And they couldn't even pen with shooting!

Tyranids have gotten the short end, but this isn't new. Warp blast with onslaught was always the way nids hard countered av14.

 Flinty wrote:

Shadowmyth515 wrote:

I am glad they made vehicles a little harder to kill, they really needed to but.. to render 95% of ther nid codex useless to av13-14... kind of irritating. I get that a landraider is like "THE" big daddy of tanks... but at the average cost of what? 265 ish points.. my trygon prime (or other mc) who is VERY c lose if not MORE to the point cost should have a semi reliable chance to muck one up.

Taken the other way though, how much chance does a Land Raider have to kill a trygon? I imagine that the heavy bolter shots will ping off the thing and it would take several turns of lascannon fire to take out the Trygon, compared to the previous edition where you're telling me the trygon would one-shot the land raider half the time.

Actually, you can easily kill a trygon with bolter rounds, noithing tyranid have is better than 3+ armor saves

Andy06r wrote:
Tyranids have *always* had a weak spot vs heavy armor. Before smash existed, the s10 rupture cannon and s9 carnifex and s9 HVC was it. And they couldn't even pen with shooting!

Tyranids have gotten the short end, but this isn't new. Warp blast with onslaught was always the way nids hard countered av14.

Am I the only person who actually played 5e?

Because with armorbane in 5e a Trygon could tear open a tank just fine.

And HVCs and Rupture cannons were and are still garbage.

Personally, i think that the nerf is needed but it's too hursh. I'd at least make this attack armourbane. Still not super-cool but you now know that on a 3+ you're getting an almost guaranteed pen vs av14. And not 5+ to pen. Making this attack ap1 is not very logical though. It'd sure help but it's not like a melta weapon, so ap2 is more logical. For ballance's sake i'd allow charge bonus to be still used. So that you get 1 base + 1 charge bonus or +2 if you have mark of khorne. Rampage will also be great with 1+d3. I find it perfectly reasonable since you need to hit anywayz.

So, i'd homebrew the rules to make this attacks either:

-Sx2 ap2 armourbane, single attack (weaker option)
-Sx2 ap2 single attack + charge/counter attack bonus (stronger option)

If you are taking crushing claw tervs as your AT option, you know you're hurting.

Tyranids are going to have a very, very tough time.

For example, orkses were not able to reliably kill av14 vehicles other than PK warbosses or amassed Meganobz but the odds of getting there were on par or even lower than your carnifexe's...we managed to deal with it somehow. I think that it's not alwayz mandatory to destroy those overpriced landraiders at will to win sm.

Yep it's become way harder to you but on the second thought...do you really need to destroy it?

 koooaei wrote:
Orks were never able to reliably kill av14 vehicles other than PK warbosses or amassed Meganobz but the odds of getting there were on par or even lower than your carnifexe's...we managed to deal with it somehow. I think that it's not alwayz mandatory to destroy those overpriced landraiders at will to win sm.

Yep it's become way harder to you but on the second thought...do you really need to destroy it?

My Deffrollaz and Squuggoths broke many a land raider like a cheap tin can.

As for Land Raiders not being efficient at killing Trygons, I'd hope an IFV isn't especially killy for it's price.

A Terminus Ultra or a Spartan Assault Tank kitted for anti-tank duties however, will kill a Trygon in two to three turns garaunteed.

In 5 ed deffrollas were a way to go, certainly! But now with pre-measurement, i haven't had a single game in 6 ed where a defrolla managed to get to a landraider. That's also due to wagonz popping earlier. Pre-measurement is still here and wagonz are still popping, maybe with a bit lower rate but not low enough. Not like i'm not happy with that - wagonz should explode every turn Can't tell bout squiggoths - haven't ever seen anyone using them irl.

 koooaei wrote:
In 5 ed deffrollas were a way to ge, certainly! But now with pre-measurement, i haven't had a single game in 6 ed where a defrolla managed to get to a landraider. That's also due to wagonz popping earlier. Pre-measurement is still here and wagonz are still popping, maybe with a bit lower rate but not low enough. Not like i'm not happy with that - wagonz should explode every turn Can't tell bout squiggoths - haven't ever see anyone using them irl.

If you aren't getting Wagons and fortresses into ram distance fast enough you aren't using enough of them.

I prefer to disembark what's inside ASAP. First turn going 18', than going either really fast again or 6+disembark. And next thing i'm doing is blocking los to what's disembarked. Not much to ram really. Ramming is so rare in 6-th that deffrollas are not worth the points anymore.

Anywayz, the point is do you really need to throw resources at popping that landraider? It's never gona kill enough on it's own. What's important are the guyz inside. Lure them out and all's gona be fine. You'll have to deal with losses, but that's what we're doing on daily basis

 koooaei wrote:
I prefer to disembark what's inside ASAP. First turn going 18', than going either really fast again or 6+disembark. And next thing i'm doing is blocking los to what's disembarked. Not much to ram really. Ramming is so rare in 6-th that deffrollas are not worth the points anymore.

Anywayz, the point is do you really need to throw resources at popping that landraider? It's never gona kill enough on it's own. What's important are the guyz inside. Lure them out and all's gona be fine. You'll have to deal with losses, but that's what we're doing on daily basis

In any case there's much more worrisome AV14 things than raiders.

Like Baneblades. BEHNBUHLAYDES.

You have a whole series of haywire weapons for shooty anti armour.

If you want to melee the tank open and it is AV13-14 it is a landraider (likely filled with a nasty melee unit) or a walker (probably knight level). It probably is not advisable but if you really want to then you should take carnifex broods would tear any vehicle apart. Keep in mind that MC are all tank hunter in melee and AP2. So against AV11- vehicles all of the S6 MC will handily destroy their vehicles. If you want all your MC to be able to scratch the paint on AV12 properly then you will need adrenal glands. Also crushing claws are amazing against vehicles, this is how tervis do it.

Honestly though why should every single one of your MC be able to tear a knight titan or landraider a new one because it got to attack? It was almost comical how bad most vehicles were against MC and nids in particular.

 ansacs wrote:
You have a whole series of haywire weapons for shooty anti armour.

If you want to melee the tank open and it is AV13-14 it is a landraider (likely filled with a nasty melee unit) or a walker (probably knight level). It probably is not advisable but if you really want to then you should take carnifex broods would tear any vehicle apart. Keep in mind that MC are all tank hunter in melee and AP2. So against AV11- vehicles all of the S6 MC will handily destroy their vehicles. If you want all your MC to be able to scratch the paint on AV12 properly then you will need adrenal glands. Also crushing claws are amazing against vehicles, this is how tervis do it.

Honestly though why should every single one of your MC be able to tear a knight titan or landraider a new one because it got to attack? It was almost comical how bad most vehicles were against MC and nids in particular.

This fight has no right to be one the Dreadnought has a shot of winning at.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=187344

This fight should be far more even (And Trygons have no business being 200 point MCs anyway. They were GCs before, and they should be GCs again).

Remove smash, replace it with the old Armorbane for MCs and give crushing claws rerolls to pen instead and give Walkers a proper bonus in CC like reverse tank-hunters, actual saves, or +1 armor in assault.

Bam, everyone's happy.

feth turning the Tyranids, Orks, Khorne, and Blood Angels into shooty armies with a cactus. feth nerfing assault with a chainsaw.

Smash wasn't even broken. People just want to line their tanks up, never move with them, not pick priority targets then get annoyed when a few of them die . News flash; Trygons can move Maximum 6'' before charging , slow vehicles move faster. Smash was powerful, but with the WS chart, the fact you get to shoot at them first if you really don't want the vehicle to die it wasn't broken for everything a MC user has to get through to get to use it.
Flying MC's might have been another matter, but the fact they have to drop before charging would have been enough to counter that.

 ansacs wrote:


Honestly though why should every single one of your MC be able to tear a knight titan or landraider a new one because it got to attack? It was almost comical how bad most vehicles were against MC and nids in particular.

Nice strawman, bro!

Carnifexes are really hard for vehicles to avoid, huh? Just curious if you have actually tried some of the tactics you are commenting on. Have you ever run haywire guards? Before commenting, you should re-examine some of the ideas you profess . Not to be rude, but nids on paper are bad and nids on the table are worse, particulary with regard to AT potential.

I would recommend crones. They have some of the best haywire delivery in the game.

After that Electroshock grubs.

Why in the world would you need to run guard?


Trygons really should probably be GMC, Str 8+, or something similar. They do seem a bit large to be in Strength category they are.

People need to stop kidding themselves. The vehicles in "parking lots" are AV10 rear armour. These are not surviving a charge from pretty much any MC or even your S4+ gribbles. The vehicles you are talking about that you need to hurt AV13-14 are landraiders and the toughest of walkers. These are not particularly tough to "catch" as they are large, tend to be relatively slow, and mostly have little ranged output.

Also if you want to catch something you should use your gargoyles, termigaunts, etc. to tie it down and then hit it with your big bugs. I have never seen a properly constructed nids list not be able to engage the opponent. Usually most of the board is covered anyways or flying nids are all over the place.

Interestingly enough nids players just gained access to all the other factions suicide melta units as well. You might want to consider some scions to join your gene stealer cults.

 ansacs wrote:
I would recommend crones. They have some of the best haywire delivery in the game.

After that Electroshock grubs.

Why in the world would you need to run guard?


Trygons really should probably be GMC, Str 8+, or something similar. They do seem a bit large to be in Strength category they are.

People need to stop kidding themselves. The vehicles in "parking lots" are AV10 rear armour. These are not surviving a charge from pretty much any MC or even your S4+ gribbles. The vehicles you are talking about that you need to hurt AV13-14 are landraiders and the toughest of walkers. These are not particularly tough to "catch" as they are large, tend to be relatively slow, and mostly have little ranged output.

Also if you want to catch something you should use your gargoyles, termigaunts, etc. to tie it down and then hit it with your big bugs. I have never seen a properly constructed nids list not be able to engage the opponent. Usually most of the board is covered anyways or flying nids are all over the place.

Interestingly enough nids players just gained access to all the other factions suicide melta units as well. You might want to consider some scions to join your gene stealer cults.

I have my old Genestealer Codex.

Stormicus Trooperus they were not.

In any case, with Lords of War, people aren't talking about worrying about just LRBTs anymore, but Shadowswords, Warhounds, Stompaz, and Revenants.

And most melee TMCs suffer from problems of delivery.

The fastest they ever get is fleet, and with only one breaking the mold of T6 3+ save, they need to hug cover at all costs and are heavily dependent on Venomthropes, Regeneration, and Catalyst to survive.

The last bit I wouldn't mind if we had mutations again so I could spend the points to improve my melee fexes to T7 and 2+ armor if I knew I was going to want them to go into melee.

In addition, while Haywire remains a strong option, more traditional Tyranid vehicle ranged killing systems; like Rupture Cannons, Impaler Cannons, and HVCs have been rendered into bad jokes (and they already sucked before hand), much like how Krak Missiles have now become next to useless at killing tanks in good time and Lascannons need to be spammed to do anything (essentially meaning that traditional anti-tank options are slowly being phased out in favour of HP stripping all the time).

I liked being able to have Carnifexes with HVCs fairly trade shots with tanks in Dawn of War 2, and I find the Rupture cannon to be a massive disappointment to what it's lore paints it as (baneblade killer my ass). But this is more a general complaint regarding GW's insistence on slowly making HP stripping the only way to kill vehicles as the damage chart makes penetrations less valuable with each edition since 5th.

IF I were to re-write smash (the old version was pretty bad in that it was usable against infantry models, beyond the AP2 part of it.) I would like to see it tied to vehicle movement (much like the to hit roll used to be)
With smash you would still keep all your attacks but get +3 S against a vehicle that had not moved, +2 if it moved <6", +1 if it moved up to 12", no bonus if it goes flat out. Also this bonus would not effect walkers as they are fighting back and moving.(or maybe allow +1 S only).

This represents MCs really going to town on an imobile vehicle, or slow moving vehicle, but having a harder time bringing down one speeding away.