Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The rule about models making pile in moves does not apply if there are not models making pile in moves. So it is true.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule about models making pile in moves does not apply if there are not models making pile in moves. So it is true.

If models are not making pile ins, is either players pile in sufficient to bring them base to base?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule about models making pile in moves does not apply if there are not models making pile in moves. So it is true.

If models are not making pile ins, is either players pile in sufficient to bring them base to base?

It does not apply since no models are moving. The rules assume models are actually making Pile in moves on an initiative where models get to strike.

It's actually a situation that can occur in multiple situations. for example Techmarines and Servitors also strike at multiple Ini steps.

There's another funky thing about this btw.
Assuming the remaining character gets to strike at something else this would still apply RAW, wouldnt it?

For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact
with each other and, when rolling To Hit and To Wound, they always use the Weapon Skill and Toughness of their opponent.

It also states that :
When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain,
regardless of which Initiative Step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing
until the end of the phase for the purposes of Outside Forces

So if you had a T6 model with WS8 in the challenge that died, the opponent might still hit on 5s and wound on 6s even though the rest of the opponents are all T3 and WS2

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule about models making pile in moves does not apply if there are not models making pile in moves. So it is true.

If models are not making pile ins, is either players pile in sufficient to bring them base to base?

It does not apply since no models are moving. The rules assume models are actually making Pile in moves on an initiative where models get to strike.

Citation required. The rules don't make that distinction.

Don't have BRB on hand atm, but I vaguely remember something that transferred excess wounds to other models in the unit? Wouldn't this apply here then, cause I am pretty sure excess wounds from a challenge are resolved against the rest of the unit in combat. Also remember something that considers models not in range as in combat, i.e., I win challenge, my excess wounds go to any model within the unit I am in combat with, generally its closest models to the striker, but I recall somewhere in the assault section that even models not in range can still be wounded by attacks.

If I am wrong let me know, but provide an entry from the BRB as I do not have mine on me atm.

Zodiark wrote:
Don't have BRB on hand atm, but I vaguely remember something that transferred excess wounds to other models in the unit? Wouldn't this apply here then, cause I am pretty sure excess wounds from a challenge are resolved against the rest of the unit in combat. Also remember something that considers models not in range as in combat, i.e., I win challenge, my excess wounds go to any model within the unit I am in combat with, generally its closest models to the striker, but I recall somewhere in the assault section that even models not in range can still be wounded by attacks.

If I am wrong let me know, but provide an entry from the BRB as I do not have mine on me atm.

Sure, excess wounds spill out.
How is that relevant, like, at all? Assume your character has one wound left. HoW kills him. What wounds are there to spill over?

rigeld2 wrote:

Zodiark wrote:
Don't have BRB on hand atm, but I vaguely remember something that transferred excess wounds to other models in the unit? Wouldn't this apply here then, cause I am pretty sure excess wounds from a challenge are resolved against the rest of the unit in combat. Also remember something that considers models not in range as in combat, i.e., I win challenge, my excess wounds go to any model within the unit I am in combat with, generally its closest models to the striker, but I recall somewhere in the assault section that even models not in range can still be wounded by attacks.

If I am wrong let me know, but provide an entry from the BRB as I do not have mine on me atm.

Sure, excess wounds spill out.
How is that relevant, like, at all? Assume your character has one wound left. HoW kills him. What wounds are there to spill over?

I was asking for clarification, no need to be snotty sir.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule about models making pile in moves does not apply if there are not models making pile in moves. So it is true.

If models are not making pile ins, is either players pile in sufficient to bring them base to base?

It does not apply since no models are moving. The rules assume models are actually making Pile in moves on an initiative where models get to strike.

Citation required. The rules don't make that distinction.

It does make that distinction.

"When making Pile In moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first. If both players’ Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that’s more than 6" – very unlikely!), the assault comes to an end." (The assault phase section, Satrt of initiative step pile in sub-section).

Note how it says "When making Pile In moves" this only applies when making pile in moves.

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not true. If neither player is making Pile In moves, then by definition both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together.
So you concede that we must process every init step? That the sentence about skipping is essentially like the Fast Dice rule? Just clarifying.

I would add an example to this:

two units with ICs kill each other out at I8. The closest Troops left are at 5" but one has I2 say Tau, and the other, Marine at I4.

Surely that Rule, by Raw (referencing the '6" is far') means that at I4, the marines Pile In 3", and at I2 the Tau Pile In 2" and combat continues?

Or would you therefore argue that combat ends at I7,6,5 or 3?

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule about models making pile in moves does not apply if there are not models making pile in moves. So it is true.

If models are not making pile ins, is either players pile in sufficient to bring them base to base?

It does not apply since no models are moving. The rules assume models are actually making Pile in moves on an initiative where models get to strike.

Citation required. The rules don't make that distinction.

It does make that distinction.

"When making Pile In moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first. If both players’ Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that’s more than 6" – very unlikely!), the assault comes to an end." (The assault phase section, Satrt of initiative step pile in sub-section).

Note how it says "When making Pile In moves" this only applies when making pile in moves.

So to clarify.

MC piles in and strikes at I10, kills said unit. He's done with his combat then? (seems weird)

The way I understand it, he piles in at I10, attacks, then would pile in on his normal Initiative as well (could totally be wrong here)

But HoW grants an additional attack at I10, I would assume that you would still get your normal attack at your normal Initiative as well right? You would if the target lives, but you don't if he dies? Isn't the combat ongoing?

Zodiark wrote:

So to clarify.

MC piles in and strikes at I10, kills said unit. He's done with his combat then? (seems weird)

The way I understand it, he piles in at I10, attacks, then would pile in on his normal Initiative as well (could totally be wrong here)

But HoW grants an additional attack at I10, I would assume that you would still get your normal attack at your normal Initiative as well right? You would if the target lives, but you don't if he dies? Isn't the combat ongoing?

No Zodiark, because of this rule:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because there is a rule stating that characters in the challenge do not make a Pile In move when their Initiative step is reached

"Furthermore, neither the characters in the challenge nor the models that have made way to allow the characters to get into base contact make a Pile In move when their Initiative step is reached." (Characters section, Fighting a challenge sub-section, 7th sentence).

 BlackTalos wrote:

Zodiark wrote:

So to clarify.

MC piles in and strikes at I10, kills said unit. He's done with his combat then? (seems weird)

The way I understand it, he piles in at I10, attacks, then would pile in on his normal Initiative as well (could totally be wrong here)

But HoW grants an additional attack at I10, I would assume that you would still get your normal attack at your normal Initiative as well right? You would if the target lives, but you don't if he dies? Isn't the combat ongoing?

No Zodiark, because of this rule:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because there is a rule stating that characters in the challenge do not make a Pile In move when their Initiative step is reached

"Furthermore, neither the characters in the challenge nor the models that have made way to allow the characters to get into base contact make a Pile In move when their Initiative step is reached." (Characters section, Fighting a challenge sub-section, 7th sentence).

Kk this helps, thanks

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule about models making pile in moves does not apply if there are not models making pile in moves. So it is true.

If models are not making pile ins, is either players pile in sufficient to bring them base to base?

It does not apply since no models are moving. The rules assume models are actually making Pile in moves on an initiative where models get to strike.

Citation required. The rules don't make that distinction.

It does make that distinction.

"When making Pile In moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first. If both players’ Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that’s more than 6" – very unlikely!), the assault comes to an end." (The assault phase section, Satrt of initiative step pile in sub-section).

Note how it says "When making Pile In moves" this only applies when making pile in moves.

Yes, the sentence about who moves first applies when making pile in moves. I don't dispute that.
Which sentence ends the combat - that one or the next?

It is the same Paragraph, so they are related sentences and they are talking about the same thing.

TY for your agreement.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is the same Paragraph, so they are related sentences and they are talking about the same thing.

TY for your agreement.

They're demonstrably not talking about the same thing. The first is order of pile ins. The second is dealing with what happens when pile ins can't bring the units to B2B.
In short, I don't agree. Please don't assume otherwise unless I say so.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is the same Paragraph, so they are related sentences and they are talking about the same thing.

TY for your agreement.

They're demonstrably not talking about the same thing. The first is order of pile ins. The second is dealing with what happens when pile ins can't bring the units to B2B.
In short, I don't agree. Please don't assume otherwise unless I say so.

Theoretically, what would need to happen to allow the original attacker to pile in after killing the person he challenges?

Zodiark wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is the same Paragraph, so they are related sentences and they are talking about the same thing.

TY for your agreement.

They're demonstrably not talking about the same thing. The first is order of pile ins. The second is dealing with what happens when pile ins can't bring the units to B2B.
In short, I don't agree. Please don't assume otherwise unless I say so.

Theoretically, what would need to happen to allow the original attacker to pile in after killing the person he challenges?

Pretty sure it was quoted that models in a challenge don't pile in that turn, but I could be wrong.

rigeld2 wrote:

Zodiark wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is the same Paragraph, so they are related sentences and they are talking about the same thing.

TY for your agreement.

They're demonstrably not talking about the same thing. The first is order of pile ins. The second is dealing with what happens when pile ins can't bring the units to B2B.
In short, I don't agree. Please don't assume otherwise unless I say so.

Theoretically, what would need to happen to allow the original attacker to pile in after killing the person he challenges?

Pretty sure it was quoted that models in a challenge don't pile in that turn, but I could be wrong.

I don't have brb on hand but I would like to know for sure if possible. It makes sense that they would not get a 2nd pile in, but the rules clearly state that after a challenge the CC is still ongoing and since the HoW was done at I10, when we got around to the units normal Initiative, would we skip his pile in or proceed as normal?

rigeld2 wrote:

Zodiark wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is the same Paragraph, so they are related sentences and they are talking about the same thing.

TY for your agreement.

They're demonstrably not talking about the same thing. The first is order of pile ins. The second is dealing with what happens when pile ins can't bring the units to B2B.
In short, I don't agree. Please don't assume otherwise unless I say so.

Theoretically, what would need to happen to allow the original attacker to pile in after killing the person he challenges?

Pretty sure it was quoted that models in a challenge don't pile in that turn, but I could be wrong.

It was quoted:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/598738.page#6908229

So final verdict being?


Charges happen, challenge is declared, IC's brought into b2b, HoW kills target of challenge.

Proceed with following initiative steps.

Other models pile in and attack. IC that was in challange cannot pile in.

If other combatants Pile in move would put them in b2b with IC, could he then swing with any Initiative 1 attacks?

As a side-note (and maybe worth a new thread & question), can the unit now hit the Character in CC ? (they are in B2B after all?)

 BlackTalos wrote:
As a side-note (and maybe worth a new thread & question), can the unit now hit the Character in CC ? (they are in B2B after all?)

Yes the unit can hit the Character.

Characters in challenges are no longer protected. They can die from outside wounds now.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
As a side-note (and maybe worth a new thread & question), can the unit now hit the Character in CC ? (they are in B2B after all?)

Yes the unit can hit the Character.

Characters in challenges are no longer protected. They can die from outside wounds now.

Thanks, i thought so...

How do i then prove this to my Local store Manager who said (trying to quote): "You can allocate wounds, but there is no permission to hit the Model in a challenge."
"Show me how you *hit* the IC and i'll agree"

My original response was: They're in base contact, but any better argument?

 GruenerT wrote:
It's actually a situation that can occur in multiple situations. for example Techmarines and Servitors also strike at multiple Ini steps.

There's another funky thing about this btw.
Assuming the remaining character gets to strike at something else this would still apply RAW, wouldnt it?

For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact
with each other and, when rolling To Hit and To Wound, they always use the Weapon Skill and Toughness of their opponent.

It also states that :
When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain,
regardless of which Initiative Step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing
until the end of the phase for the purposes of Outside Forces

So if you had a T6 model with WS8 in the challenge that died, the opponent might still hit on 5s and wound on 6s even though the rest of the opponents are all T3 and WS2

I think this might be the answer we've been digging for. "Even if one of the combatants is slain, regardless of which Initiative Step it is, the challeng is still considered to be ongoing" when combined with "For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact with each other......" to me states that even if the HoW kills the challenger, the MC still gets to attack as if he were in BtB with the slain model. So I think you would roll against the challengers WS/T on the MCs other Initiative Step to determine the number of wounds that are carried over.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
As a side-note (and maybe worth a new thread & question), can the unit now hit the Character in CC ? (they are in B2B after all?)

Yes the unit can hit the Character.

Characters in challenges are no longer protected. They can die from outside wounds now.

Thanks, i thought so...

How do i then prove this to my Local store Manager who said (trying to quote): "You can allocate wounds, but there is no permission to hit the Model in a challenge."
"Show me how you *hit* the IC and i'll agree"

My original response was: They're in base contact, but any better argument?

Because you cannot hit the model in a challenge until the challenge is completed. If you kill the guy with HoW, the challenge is done and you can be hit, if you did not, then the challenge is ongoing and you cannot be hit. The only way other models in a unit can hit you is if the challenge is completed.

Did they remove the 'until end of Turn' clause in 7th?

IIRC it was until end of challenge in 6th as well, don't have book on me to double check though, but I know it says until end of challenge other models cannot hit a challenger

They are at different initiative steps so the normal attacks wouldn't be made.

You're in the challenge until the end of the phase, but that doesn't prevent you from being attacked, guys.

The other models in the unit attack normally, just like they normally would. The ONLY thing different is that the wounds must go to other models first, then they'll hit the challengers normally.

Permission to attack? How about they're engaged in close combat when their initiative step is reached? That's all you need in order to make attacks.