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This came up tonight unintentionally and made myself and a local TO go hmm.

A Great Unclean One charges a unit of Necrons that contain a Cryptek. In true Necron fashion, the cryptek challenges the lone MC Character.

Hammer of Wrath hits the Cryptek at I10 and kills him.

With no opponent alive in the challenge, would the Great Unclean One get to swing at his Initiative? Should the Cryptek resurrects, the Challenge continues but for the rest of THAT fight sub-phase, would the GUO swing and against whom if so?

Right before the "outside forces" of a challenges, it states the challenges continues if a combatant is slain. Likewise, in the pike in step, there is no one in the challenge left to become base to base with at initiative. We ended up rolling off but am curious on what Dakka thinks on this one.

This is why I like YMDC: such interesting puzzles!

BRB 102: "Neither the characters in the challenge nor the models that have made way to allow the characters to get into base contact make a Pile In move when their Initiative step is reached. For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact with each other."

BRB 49: "A model is engaged in combat if:
1. It is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
2. It is within [coherency] of a friendly model in base contact with [the enemy]."

So, here's what I'd say:
If none of the Warriors were in base contact with the GUO at the end of the Charge sub-phase and/or start of the Fight sub-phase (which seems very unlikely to me), then once the Cryptek died, there would be no engaged enemy models. Models cannot try and get engaged because of the specifics regarding challenges (quoted above).
Both the Crons and the GUO would still make an end of assault Pile In move, since that is not restricted by challenges.

And thinking about it, it would actually be pretty easy to get a single-model unit into this situation. When the GUO charged, he only touched the closest Necron, which was then swapped for the Cryptek. Very clever and interesting way to get around the new Challenge rules (written to prevent heroes from hiding in challenges).
Of course, if the Crons had charged the GUO, this would be much less likely to occur, since the Necrons would've got more models in base contact with the Charge move.

The models that were swapped do not make pile in moves, but the other models in the unit can.

If the GUO was not in base contact on his Initiative he can not pile in. He also can not strike blows because he is no longer engaged.

The Necrons that were not moved to make way for the challenge would pile in since they have a lower Initiative and fight as normal.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The models that were swapped do not make pile in moves, but the other models in the unit can.

If the GUO was not in base contact on his Initiative he can not pile in. He also can not strike blows because he is no longer engaged.

The Necrons that were not moved to make way for the challenge would pile in since they have a lower Initiative and fight as normal.

I guess my only question would be what determines if a model was moved to make way for the challenge or not? Would it just be the initial model that gets swapped out or would it qualify for the entire outside force?

You don't just swap the models. You are supposed to literally move models out of the way so that the characters can walk together. So, the models that physically had to move out of the way are the ones in question. The easiest way to tell is just pick the models that were in between the two before you made the swap.

 Kriswall wrote:
You don't just swap the models. You are supposed to literally move models out of the way so that the characters can walk together. So, the models that physically had to move out of the way are the ones in question. The easiest way to tell is just pick the models that were in between the two before you made the swap.

This is incorrect. Per pg 539 of the ERB it states the following:

If possible, swap the challenger for a friendly model in base contact with the challengee.

No where in the "Fighting a Challenge" section does it say the models of the unit make a path.

Relooking at 6th edition rulebook, this is hasn't changed.

Late on though, it does talk about models that have made way to allow the characters to be in base contact - this would refer to the models that were swapped in both units to get the combatants into base to base, not the entire unit that would allow the model to "walk" up.

With that in mind - Elric's citing of models moved do not pile in would mean that the warrior unit (other than the 1 model that got swapped out) would be able to pile in, no?

 Unholyllama wrote:
I guess my only question would be what determines if a model was moved to make way for the challenge or not? Would it just be the initial model that gets swapped out or would it qualify for the entire outside force?

If you moved the challenger into base contact then he and a friendly model would have moved. with a GUO there was no friendly model so you had to move the challengee.

The challengee and the model in base contact with the GUO can not make pile in moves since you swapped those two models to get the challengee into base contact with the GUO. The rest of the unit did not move.

Basically if you moved a model that was in base contact with the GUO that model can not pile in. The character is dead because of the GUO hammer of wrath so he clearly can not pile in either.

Maybe I do not understand your question did I answer it?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unholyllama wrote:
I guess my only question would be what determines if a model was moved to make way for the challenge or not? Would it just be the initial model that gets swapped out or would it qualify for the entire outside force?

If you moved the challenger into base contact then he and a friendly model would have moved. with a GUO there was no friendly model so you had to move the challengee.

The challengee and the model in base contact with the GUO can not make pile in moves since you swapped those two models to get the challengee into base contact with the GUO. The rest of the unit did not move.

Basically if you moved a model that was in base contact with the GUO that model can not pile in. The character is dead because of the GUO hammer of wrath so he clearly can not pile in either.

Maybe I do not understand your question did I answer it?

That answers my question - thanks!

Just in case this helps you unholy.

If your model kills the opponent in a challenge w/ HoW, then he's done w/ the challenge and can't fight the other models. A Hammer of Wraith is just like your other attacks except it's at inititive 10. In 7th wounds carry over from challenges. Once you killed the character though w/ HoW, your character essentially gets no more attacks. As by the time your standard attacks comes around , you have no model to swing on. If there isn't a model left after said challenge, then your model is dead in the water the first round. (Not literally dead, just unable to attack

Hope this helps.

To add to this discussion, is there anything preventing you from declining to use the HoW USR in a round of combat?

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
To add to this discussion, is there anything preventing you from declining to use the HoW USR in a round of combat?

If you have the HoW rule, you have to use it. This is because the HoW rule states that a model with this rule makes one additional attack at I10.

Had it said you can attack at I10 at base str etc... then you would not have to use that rule, but as it stands HoW is automatic.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
To add to this discussion, is there anything preventing you from declining to use the HoW USR in a round of combat?

If you have the HoW rule, you have to use it. This is because the HoW rule states that a model with this rule makes one additional attack at I10.

Had it said you can attack at I10 at base str etc... then you would not have to use that rule, but as it stands HoW is automatic.

At first glance, this seems like it really hoses character MCs, but now that I think about it, this means that the character MC still wins the combat, granted only by 1 usually, thus severely reducing the chance of a Sweeping Advance. However, since the MC charged, that means it will be engaged during their opponent's turn and can go to town on the rest of the squad without having to worry about being shot at. So really, you kind of want that HoW to kill the challenger.

The enemy models still get to swing at the character MC, since wounds bleed over into and out of challenges now. So there is still a chance that the MC can die.

It's quite an odd rule system, as it says wounds bleed over but not attacks. so if there's nothing else to attack you can't attack, but if there's something to attack then you can kill it then overkill it into the character.

I generally just play it as challenger have to allocate attacks onto the opposing challengee first, until he dies. it's a simple way to de-clutter the confusion of the rule.

the HoW thing is similar to a conundrum with mindshackle scarabs - if the lord uses them, and the guy kills himself before the lord swings, does the lord sit there and do nothing? I say no, he contemptuously chucked the scarabs at him and, assuming he kills himself first, swings into the rest of the squad.
challenges are meant to be a fluffy thing, not a gamebreaker. "I want to fight him first" as opposed to "everyone form a circle, in the middle of this battle we shall use a set of rules that states if I, a bloodthirster, can kill that guy, a puny guardsman, I win and you all do nothing. agreed?"

that's how I do it. and in an arse-about-face way of writing it, I think that's how they want it done.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The enemy models still get to swing at the character MC, since wounds bleed over into and out of challenges now. So there is still a chance that the MC can die.

The way I took the original issue was, the charging MC was only in B2B with a single model (I know this will not always be the case). This was causing trouble since the model is replaced with the challenger, who dies on Init Step 10 due to HoW, and with the Init Step 9, no models are in B2B and thus the combat ends. If there are several models in B2B after Init Step 10, and when it is the Init Step of the MC (who is technically no longer in a challenge now) what prevents the MC from striking the rest of the unit?

Doesnt the GUO get to use his free consolidate at his initiative step for his regular attacks? Wouldnt that most likely put him into BTB

 Leth wrote:
Doesnt the GUO get to use his free consolidate at his initiative step for his regular attacks? Wouldnt that most likely put him into BTB

I could be wrong on this (don't have the book with me) but I think that if an Init Step ends with no models in BTB, the combat ends. So if the GUO is only in BTB with a single model, that model gets swapped out for the challenger, the challenger gets killed by HoW on Init Step 10, then the combat ends because there are no more models in BTB at the end of step 10.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The enemy models still get to swing at the character MC, since wounds bleed over into and out of challenges now. So there is still a chance that the MC can die.

The way I took the original issue was, the charging MC was only in B2B with a single model (I know this will not always be the case). This was causing trouble since the model is replaced with the challenger, who dies on Init Step 10 due to HoW, and with the Init Step 9, no models are in B2B and thus the combat ends. If there are several models in B2B after Init Step 10, and when it is the Init Step of the MC (who is technically no longer in a challenge now) what prevents the MC from striking the rest of the unit?

(Emphasis mine) where does it state the underlined, I can not find it in the assault rules.
Is there a model at Initiative 9 that tried to pile in but could not make it?

If there are not any models striking at a given initiative you skip those Initiative steps.

"You’ll rarely have models fighting at all of the Initiative steps, so just skip any that don’t apply." (The assault Phase section, Initiative step sub-section).

 Leth wrote:
Doesnt the GUO get to use his free consolidate at his initiative step for his regular attacks? Wouldnt that most likely put him into BTB

No, as you would swap the GUO, because he is the challenger, to get into base contact with the enemy character.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The enemy models still get to swing at the character MC, since wounds bleed over into and out of challenges now. So there is still a chance that the MC can die.

The way I took the original issue was, the charging MC was only in B2B with a single model (I know this will not always be the case). This was causing trouble since the model is replaced with the challenger, who dies on Init Step 10 due to HoW, and with the Init Step 9, no models are in B2B and thus the combat ends. If there are several models in B2B after Init Step 10, and when it is the Init Step of the MC (who is technically no longer in a challenge now) what prevents the MC from striking the rest of the unit?

(Emphasis mine) where does it state the underlined, I can not find it in the assault rules.
Is there a model at Initiative 9 that tried to pile in but could not make it?

If there are not any models striking at a given initiative you skip those Initiative steps.

"You’ll rarely have models fighting at all of the Initiative steps, so just skip any that don’t apply." (The assault Phase section, Initiative step sub-section).

 Leth wrote:
Doesnt the GUO get to use his free consolidate at his initiative step for his regular attacks? Wouldnt that most likely put him into BTB

No, as you would swap the GUO, because he is the challenger, to get into base contact with the enemy character.

Why would being in a challenge prevent you from getting your 3 inch move at your initiative step? Only thing that prevents it as far as I know being in base already

 Leth wrote:
Why would being in a challenge prevent you from getting your 3 inch move at your initiative step? Only thing that prevents it as far as I know being in base already

Because there is a rule stating that characters in the challenge do not make a Pile In move when their Initiative step is reached

"Furthermore, neither the characters in the challenge nor the models that have made way to allow the characters to get into base contact make a Pile In move when their Initiative step is reached." (Characters section, Fighting a challenge sub-section, 7th sentence).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The enemy models still get to swing at the character MC, since wounds bleed over into and out of challenges now. So there is still a chance that the MC can die.

The way I took the original issue was, the charging MC was only in B2B with a single model (I know this will not always be the case). This was causing trouble since the model is replaced with the challenger, who dies on Init Step 10 due to HoW, and with the Init Step 9, no models are in B2B and thus the combat ends. If there are several models in B2B after Init Step 10, and when it is the Init Step of the MC (who is technically no longer in a challenge now) what prevents the MC from striking the rest of the unit?

(Emphasis mine) where does it state the underlined, I can not find it in the assault rules.
Is there a model at Initiative 9 that tried to pile in but could not make it?

If there are not any models striking at a given initiative you skip those Initiative steps.

"You’ll rarely have models fighting at all of the Initiative steps, so just skip any that don’t apply." (The assault Phase section, Initiative step sub-section).

 Leth wrote:
Doesnt the GUO get to use his free consolidate at his initiative step for his regular attacks? Wouldnt that most likely put him into BTB

No, as you would swap the GUO, because he is the challenger, to get into base contact with the enemy character.

Sorry, I meant to say Init Step 10. Again, don't have the book with me, but isn't there a rule that states at the end of a model's initiative step, if no models are in base to base, the combat ends and all additional initiative steps are lost? In the case of HoW, would a model actually have two Init Steps, the first one always being Step 10?

Also, why would the GUO be the one that was swapped if the enemy character is the one that issued the challenge? Seems it would be the other way around. Of course, if you swapped the GUO with a basic infantry model, being on a 60mm base, that would most likely put it in BTB with other models in the unit anyway.

I see where the argument is coming from. Since he has to take the most direct shortest route it is not possible to be in BTB with two models at the same time according to geometry. So the guy he is in base contact would get swapped and then killed.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Sorry, I meant to say Init Step 10. Again, don't have the book with me, but isn't there a rule that states at the end of a model's initiative step, if no models are in base to base, the combat ends and all additional initiative steps are lost? In the case of HoW, would a model actually have two Init Steps, the first one always being Step 10?

Also, why would the GUO be the one that was swapped if the enemy character is the one that issued the challenge? Seems it would be the other way around. Of course, if you swapped the GUO with a basic infantry model, being on a 60mm base, that would most likely put it in BTB with other models in the unit anyway.

There is no such rule that states at the end of a model's initiative step, if no models are in base to base, the combat ends and all additional initiative steps are lost.

Perhaps you are thinking of this rule from the Assault Phase section, Start of initiative step sub-section "If both players’ Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that’s more than 6" – very unlikely!), the assault comes to an end."

Which, since that rule is checked during Initiative Step pile in, is checked every initative step... and if there's no piling in at I9, what happens?

rigeld2 wrote:
Which, since that rule is checked during Initiative Step pile in, is checked every initative step... and if there's no piling in at I9, what happens?

Nothing because if there are no models Striking/making Pile in moves in at I9 you skip that step. And that rule applies when making Pile In moves.

"You’ll rarely have models fighting at all of the Initiative steps, so just skip any that don’t apply." (The assault Phase section, Initiative step sub-section).

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Which, since that rule is checked during Initiative Step pile in, is checked every initative step... and if there's no piling in at I9, what happens?

nothing as if there are not models piling at I9 you skip that step...

That's not what the rules say, however. Yes, they tell you to skip any that don't apply - but every combat *will* have 10 steps, even if they don't apply.

Work your way through the Initiative values of the models in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest. This means that each combat will have ten Initiative steps, starting at Initiative 10 and working down to Initiative 1.

You work your way through the Init values in the combat - but even if you don't have any Init 10 models/hits/whatever each combat *will* (not might) have 10 steps. Skipping a step doesn't get rid of the step, because of the requirement to have that step.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Sorry, I meant to say Init Step 10. Again, don't have the book with me, but isn't there a rule that states at the end of a model's initiative step, if no models are in base to base, the combat ends and all additional initiative steps are lost? In the case of HoW, would a model actually have two Init Steps, the first one always being Step 10?

Also, why would the GUO be the one that was swapped if the enemy character is the one that issued the challenge? Seems it would be the other way around. Of course, if you swapped the GUO with a basic infantry model, being on a 60mm base, that would most likely put it in BTB with other models in the unit anyway.

There is no such rule that states at the end of a model's initiative step, if no models are in base to base, the combat ends and all additional initiative steps are lost.

Perhaps you are thinking of this rule from the Assault Phase section, Start of initiative step sub-section "If both players’ Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that’s more than 6" – very unlikely!), the assault comes to an end."

Yep, thats the one I was thinking of. For some reason, I was thinking that was triggered at the end of each initiative step.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Which, since that rule is checked during Initiative Step pile in, is checked every initative step... and if there's no piling in at I9, what happens?

nothing as if there are not models piling at I9 you skip that step...

That's not what the rules say, however. Yes, they tell you to skip any that don't apply - but every combat *will* have 10 steps, even if they don't apply.

Work your way through the Initiative values of the models in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest. This means that each combat will have ten Initiative steps, starting at Initiative 10 and working down to Initiative 1.

You work your way through the Init values in the combat - but even if you don't have any Init 10 models/hits/whatever each combat *will* (not might) have 10 steps. Skipping a step doesn't get rid of the step, because of the requirement to have that step.

If no models are making pile in moves the Rule "When making Pile In moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first. If both players’ Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that’s more than 6" – very unlikely!), the assault comes to an end." does not, indeed can not apply as there are no models making pile in moves.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Which, since that rule is checked during Initiative Step pile in, is checked every initative step... and if there's no piling in at I9, what happens?

nothing as if there are not models piling at I9 you skip that step...

That's not what the rules say, however. Yes, they tell you to skip any that don't apply - but every combat *will* have 10 steps, even if they don't apply.

Work your way through the Initiative values of the models in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest. This means that each combat will have ten Initiative steps, starting at Initiative 10 and working down to Initiative 1.

You work your way through the Init values in the combat - but even if you don't have any Init 10 models/hits/whatever each combat *will* (not might) have 10 steps. Skipping a step doesn't get rid of the step, because of the requirement to have that step.

In normal circumstances, skipping the unused Init Steps doesn't impact anything because you always end each of those steps with models in BTB. But in this scenario, that is not the case, because Init Step 9 should apply because it could potentially end the combat. Init Step 10, HoW kills the only model in BTB with the GUO. Init Step 9, no models are in BTB after that Init Steps Pile In moves, the fight is over.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Which, since that rule is checked during Initiative Step pile in, is checked every initative step... and if there's no piling in at I9, what happens?

nothing as if there are not models piling at I9 you skip that step...

That's not what the rules say, however. Yes, they tell you to skip any that don't apply - but every combat *will* have 10 steps, even if they don't apply.

Work your way through the Initiative values of the models in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest. This means that each combat will have ten Initiative steps, starting at Initiative 10 and working down to Initiative 1.

You work your way through the Init values in the combat - but even if you don't have any Init 10 models/hits/whatever each combat *will* (not might) have 10 steps. Skipping a step doesn't get rid of the step, because of the requirement to have that step.

If no models are making pile in moves the Rule "When making Pile In moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first. If both players’ Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that’s more than 6" – very unlikely!), the assault comes to an end." does not, indeed can not apply as there are no models making pile in moves.

That's not true. If neither player is making Pile In moves, then by definition both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together.
So you concede that we must process every init step? That the sentence about skipping is essentially like the Fast Dice rule? Just clarifying.