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No argument here over the poor editing, my favourite is still the 'all Rule purposes' in the Independent Character rules.

I've often repeated this ,but Editor is a Ceremonial Title at Games Workshop.

It's funny this hasn't developed into a longer discussion, but I don't think people want cursed earth to stack. It's like the stupid Maledictions argument which is all wonky as well.

It's the same discussion that has been going on for ages with Spiritseers and warlocks casting the same runes of battle powers multiple times.

No they don't stack, they are the same power. It's pretty simply really.

Naw that's pretty clear, the problem with Cursed Earth is that it has that dumb phrase in it. They didn't even need to put it in the spells description as blessings already don't stack on themselves. So why would they even need to put it in there.


It's actually kind of weird for them to write that in as it is first poorly written, as stated any other is inclusive, plus it's already in the Blessing rules that blessings don't stack. I dunno you can read it like two ways, they should have put someting in there to specifically say that Cursed Earth didn't stack, such as any other modifiers , except Addititonal Cursed Earths, stack.

At the risk of wading into an argument I am not at all preapred for...

I'd have thought that this tactic works fine, because Cursed Earth only ever targets the Psyker. The spell does not give Daemons nearby a stronger Invul, it gives the caster an aura. The effects of this aura might well be cumulative because it's no longer a Blessing but a special rule/aspect/bit of kit that the caster is carrying.

Say we have 3 Heralds of Tzeentch; of course a single Herald could not cast Cursed Earth twice because he cannot be affected by the same Blessing multiple time. But if all 3 cast the same spell, the total effect is that units within proximity of each one add a bonus to their saves. The actual Blessing is only affecting the Heralds and so this rule is never broken, but all other Daemons are now in range of 3 separate sources of invul-bonus.

Imagine if the spell was called 'Summon Shield Generator' or something. Each Herald could only carry a single shield, but the psychic power is not projecting anything. The psychic power gives the caster a new toy. In much the same way that if a unit were hypothetically immune to friendly Blessings, Cursed Earth would remain effective because it never targetted them.

Unless I've missed something massively important here.

The benefit of anyone particular blessing can only benefit a unit once. Its pretty clear.

Holisman is correct, they had some terrible phrasing, but that doesn't the unit can only benefit from one instance of anyone particular blessing, regardless if different Psykers are casting it upon themselves. You can only ever benefit from one instance of Cursed Earth although Cursed Earth does stack with other Modifiers to Invulnerable Saves.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except that Cursed Earth from Psyker A, is not Cursed Earth from Psyker B, they are different.

But I get what you are saying.

So where in the rule book does it say two casters casting the same spell makes it different spells?

because that is the most absurd thing' I've heard in a while

agree

regardless of who uses a psychic power, any other model who casts the same psychic power is casting the same psychic power

ie a bolter= a bolter

ie invis= invis

ie cursed earth = cursed earth.

its a blessing, you cannot gain the same benefit from the same blessing.

what blessings are on the unit? Cursed Earth, Cursed earth, iron arm. 2 of those are obviously not different.

The Blessing affects the psyker itself though and grants additional effects to units around him.

A unit in reach of 2 or more psykers hasn't had Cursed Earth cast on it multiple times, it just enjoys the effects of more than one psyker with Cursed Earth active.

 Shandara wrote:
The Blessing affects the psyker itself though and grants additional effects to units around him.

A unit in reach of 2 or more psykers hasn't had Cursed Earth cast on it multiple times, it just enjoys the effects of more than one psyker with Cursed Earth active.

Which does nothing more than if there was 1 Cursed Earth near.

there is no such thing as the effects of a psyker with X, the units in the range have the blessing.

you check the units, are they in range to receive the blessing?

what blessings do they have?

Lets say they are in range of three cursed earths, and someone cast invis on them.

so they have cursed earth, cursed earth, cursed earth, and invis. They have 2 different blessings.

At no point are multiple Cursed Earth targetted at a unit near the Psykers.

It merely provides an area of effect much like pieces of wargear.

Or would you say that having multiple pieces of Wargear that provide, say, +1 Attack to units within 12" don't stack either?

 Shandara wrote:
At no point are multiple Cursed Earth targetted at a unit near the Psykers.

Where does it say that targeting matters?

It says "The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit" No where does it mention having to be targeted

Here are the actual rules if people want to argue it. I've underlined some key sentences. RAW it can literally be interpreted and read both ways because GW doesn't apparently edit things.

Blessings target one or more friendly units and, unless otherwise stated, last until the start of the Psyker’s next Psychic phase. Blessings can affect units that are locked in close combat and can affect the Psyker himself. The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative.

Actual wording on Cursed Earth

Cursed Earth is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, all models with the Daemon special rule (friend or foe) within 12" of the Psyker have a +1 bonus to their invulnerable save (normally increasing it to 4+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save. In addition, whilst the power is in effect, friendly units with the Daemon special rule will not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve so long as the first model is placed within 12" of the Psyker.

The problem is they didn't put a exception in that damn 2nd sentence in Cursed Earth, which makes it a inclusive and definitive by saying any other which is not the way to phrase that grammatically at all.


It should actuall say " Any other bonuses except other Cursed Earths"

That would make it a actual statement that excludes Cursed Earth. It can be written that way but it's a gakky way to write it as someone could come in and say " Well it says any other ".


Now take away Cursed Earth and let's ignore that it does invulnerable. If you had a piece of wargear that said that " Any other modifiers also apply" and you had two of those , would it be cumulative? I think it would.

Of course you could also say " Any other refers to all other modifers except cursed earth". Cause that's what it can mean as well.


Here's my argument for why it does : If it didn't that sentence is unneccesary because the Blessing Rules themselves state that Blessings don't stack so that sentence is not needed at all.

Here's why it could be the other way : That phrasing literally means ( Everything ) , ( Except Cursed Earth).

A unit can only benefit from a blessing once and Cursed Earth stacks with any other modifier. As in, any modifier that is not Cursed Earth. A Blessing is written in such a way as to not stack with itself. Cursed Earth is Cursed Earth no matter the source, and the rule can only be interpreted that way.

Cursed Earth was written as a blessing, and a unit can only ever benefit from any specific blessing once. "any other modifiers" can only mean any source that is not derived from cursed earth. A Psychic power is written with in the context of the limitation put upon psychic powers of that particular type ie blessings. For Cursed Earth to mean that it can stack with other castings of Cursed earth, it would have to specify that.


When looked at in the context of 7th edition Psychic powers for which Cursed Earth was written, it is very clear that the rules means Cursed Earth cannot stack with itself as its written in the context of 7th Edition where you cannot gain "the benefit of any one particular blessing" more than once per turn. To override such an inherent restriction, inherent as it declares itself as a blessing, and is written for 7th edition, it would have to specifically state it was allowed to stack with itself. Without a specific exception, "any other" means anything that is not Cursed Earth.

Context is Key. Cursed Earth declares itself a blessing, which means it follows all of those restrictions unless it is given specific permission to ignore them. Such an exception was not given.

You dont need the line that says " Any other bonuses except Cursed Earth" That is covered by the fourth word in that sentence. A blessing cannot stack with itself.

That's actually not true, specific blessings do in fact say with in their rules that they stack with themselves which I guess is why they put that.

Another +1 from another Cursed earth is in fact an "any other modifier" which is why they shouldn't have put it in there to begin with, because you can actually say that and also say the other. It's just poorly written usually when you want to specifically exclude something you specifically exclude it.

It's just poorly edited which is my main complaint, although I am wondering if this may be a difference of "English vs American English " grammar. I know specific English phrases are used more frequently in the book etc.. but I doubt it's meant to be read that way at all.

They also didn't need to clarify like anything at all if they intended that. As the Blessing rules already clarify that they do not in fact stack and we know that modifiers do in fact add to each other.

Hollismason wrote:
That's actually not true, specific blessings do in fact say with in their rules that they stack with themselves which I guess is why they put that.

Curious, which ones are there?

Another +1 from another Cursed earth is in fact an "any other modifier" which is why they shouldn't have put it in there to begin with, because you can actually say that and also say the other. It's just poorly written usually when you want to specifically exclude something you specifically exclude it.

Any "other" would not include Cursed Earth. Cursed Earth would not be an "other" modifier. Other modifiers would be things like Warp storm table, Grimoire, Forewarning, etc..

It's just poorly edited which is my main complaint, although I am wondering if this may be a difference of "English vs American English " grammar. I know specific English phrases are used more frequently in the book etc.. but I doubt it's meant to be read that way at all.

They also didn't need to clarify like anything at all if they intended that. As the Blessing rules already clarify that they do not in fact stack and we know that modifiers do in fact add to each other.

Really its not.

Mozzamanx wrote:
At the risk of wading into an argument I am not at all preapred for...

I'd have thought that this tactic works fine, because Cursed Earth only ever targets the Psyker. The spell does not give Daemons nearby a stronger Invul, it gives the caster an aura. The effects of this aura might well be cumulative because it's no longer a Blessing but a special rule/aspect/bit of kit that the caster is carrying.

It feels like a wordy mess, but i too feel like the "effect of the blessing" is that gives the psyker a +1 invul bubble. Thus units within the bubble are NOT specifically under the effect of the blessing, just the pskyer is. Are there not other blessings that note they target (or effect) the psyker and/or the target unit?

now, i am not a veteran player, and im sure there are some other examples that might set me straight.

I guess my argument boils down to what constitutes being under the effect on a blessing?

I dunno at this point I'm on the fence after reading and rereading it. I mean I'm inclined to agree with the side that says it doesn't work because of multiple blessing don't stack.

I did my best argument the other way but I still just am not 100% convinced that it works.

Hollismason wrote:
I dunno at this point I'm on the fence after reading and rereading it. I mean I'm inclined to agree with the side that says it doesn't work because of multiple blessing don't stack.

I did my best argument the other way but I still just am not 100% convinced that it works.

And IMO when an argument is balanced to much on semantics, especially when we have clear and assumed intent that blessings do not stack it is always best to take the more cautious and less game breaking approach. Raw uses and Abuses, even it was RAW legal of which I am not convinced, it is still to the detriment of the game.

sasquatchalex wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
At the risk of wading into an argument I am not at all preapred for...

I'd have thought that this tactic works fine, because Cursed Earth only ever targets the Psyker. The spell does not give Daemons nearby a stronger Invul, it gives the caster an aura. The effects of this aura might well be cumulative because it's no longer a Blessing but a special rule/aspect/bit of kit that the caster is carrying.

It feels like a wordy mess, but i too feel like the "effect of the blessing" is that gives the psyker a +1 invul bubble. Thus units within the bubble are NOT specifically under the effect of the blessing, just the pskyer is. Are there not other blessings that note they target (or effect) the psyker and/or the target unit?

now, i am not a veteran player, and im sure there are some other examples that might set me straight.

I guess my argument boils down to what constitutes being under the effect on a blessing?

The psyker may be the center point of the blessing but the models in the "bubble" are being affected by it, and if they are being affected by more than 1 of the same blessing they may not combine the benefits. If they models are not being affected by the blessing they would not be able to claim a benefit anyways, so saying the models aren't recieving the blessing but are being affected by it, but are not being affected by it so they can combine it is false.