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The idea is to take six Level 3 Heralds of Tzeentch ( math hammer ) to get "Cursed Earth" three times, then bubble wrap Tzeentch units in proximity to give them all a 2++ save which gets a reroll ( 1s ) because of the Daemon of Tzeentch ability ... sound too good to be true ?.. am I missing something that would prevent this ?

I'm considering now with blocks of Heralds on Chariots and Burning Chariots, or mix & match with some Screamers and Heralds on Discs.

A Unit can only manifest and individual power only once despite how many times it's known to that unit.

Unless others stated the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative. We don't have permission for multiples of the same Psychic power to stack.

The benefit of any particular blessing can only benefit a unit once per unit per turn. Only different powers are cumulative.



The BRB is explicitly clear that this situation cannot happen.

Well, the BRB is explicitly clear on ONE part of that situation. Cursed Earth may only affect a unit once, to improve their save by +1. Any other + modifiers must come from something else (like the Grimoire).

As to the other part (what actually constitutes a "Psychic Unit"), there are real arguments on many sides of the issue.
See this thread for the various positions.

One could argue that the fact that Cursed Earth itself states that any other modifiers could include other Cursed Earth's if ones grasp of the written english word was weak.

well true but no you get Just +1 invuln save even if 1000 cursed earths are cast.

It does however combo well with things like:

skyshield,
Mark of Tzeentch
Forewarning
Grimoire


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and crimson slaughter possessed/prophet of the voices

 Zagman wrote:
A Unit can only manifest and individual power only once despite how many times it's known to that unit.

Unless others stated the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative. We don't have permission for multiples of the same Psychic power to stack.

The benefit of any particular blessing can only benefit a unit once per unit per turn. Only different powers are cumulative.

The BRB is explicitly clear that this situation cannot happen.

(Emphasis mine)

Where does it state what you claim that I underlined above, I can not find it...

The effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative does not mean the effects of the same Psychic power are not cumulative...

"The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative." BRB pg 26.

chanceafs wrote:
"The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative." BRB pg 26.

He claimed that the rules said "Only different powers are cumulative" This does not appear in the rules...

Also a blessing cast by Psyker A, is not the same blessing as the blessing cast by Psyker B, even if they have the same name...

 DeathReaper wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
"The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative." BRB pg 26.

He claimed that the rules said "Only different powers are cumulative" This does not appear in the rules...

Also a blessing cast by Psyker A, is not the same blessing as the blessing cast by Psyker B, even if they have the same name...

But once the power is cast... it doesn't matter where it was cast from. Fortune is Fortune. Cursed Earth is Cursed Earth. So you cannot gain the benefit of any particular blessing [be it Cursed Earth, Fortune, HammerHand etc] more than once per turn. Note it doesn't say the same power... it says particular power.

By your definition of different powers it is impossible for there to be multiple of the same power on one unit... thus making the quote I referenced irrelevent. When GW writes rules, they do so for a reason. No need to put a limit on something that was already limited elsewhere.

Except that Cursed Earth from Psyker A, is not Cursed Earth from Psyker B, they are different.

But I get what you are saying.

and how do you distinguish them after they are both cast?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except that Cursed Earth from Psyker A, is not Cursed Earth from Psyker B, they are different.

But I get what you are saying.

So where in the rule book does it say two casters casting the same spell makes it different spells?

because that is the most absurd thing' I've heard in a while

Cursed Earth isn't targeted on a unit, but the Psyker itself, no? And then provides a +1 bonus to every unit around it.

If you have 3 Psykers in 3 separate units, each with their own Cursed Earth active... why would it not stack?

Because: "The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative." BRB pg 26.

And beyond that, the +1 invun from mark of tzeench will never help you get to a 2++.

Grimiore is fine, +1 from warp storm + forewarning is fine, Skyshield + warp storm is fine, but thats about the only 3 ways to get a 2++.


Mark of Tzeench specifically states that you cannot use it to get better than a 3++. You do still however get the reroll 1's which is quite nice.

Hollismason wrote:
One could argue that the fact that Cursed Earth itself states that any other modifiers could include other Cursed Earth's if ones grasp of the written english word was weak.

It says it stacks with other sources. That is fine. But, the BRB is explicitly clear you can only ever benefit from any particular Blessing once.

Don't be insulting at all is a better way to go about it. motyak


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except that Cursed Earth from Psyker A, is not Cursed Earth from Psyker B, they are different.

But I get what you are saying.

Please supply rules support for this claim.


"The benefit of any one particular blessing" is quite clear. A unit may only benefit from cursed earth once, doesn't matter how many times it's been cast in the vicinity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chanceafs wrote:
Because: "The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative." BRB pg 26.

Definitely this. You cannot claim different castings of the same Blessing are different Blessings. It has no rules support.

Show me how the benefits Cursed Earth not the benefits of Cursed Earth?

The rules are completely clear on this.

"benefit of any one particular blessing" explicitely refers to any one blessing. Stacking is no longer possible.

The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative. Unless otherwise stated, blessings cannot modify characteristics above 10 or below 1 (or below 2, in the case of Leadership)

Unless the spell itself says that it is cumulative, otherwise this overrides all the spells that say it is cumulative.

It doesn't work though but one could argue that since Cursed Earth specifically says

Cursed Earth is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, all models with the Daemon special rule (friend or foe) within 12" of the Psyker have a +1 bonus to their invulnerable save (normally increasing it to 4+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save. In addition, whilst the power is in effect, friendly units with the Daemon special rule will not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve so long as the first model is placed within 12" of the Psyker.

The problem here is the phrase [u]any other , any is the problem here because that is a inclusive term which is a problem.

Hollismason wrote:
The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative. Unless otherwise stated, blessings cannot modify characteristics above 10 or below 1 (or below 2, in the case of Leadership)

Unless the spell itself says that it is cumulative, otherwise this overrides all the spells that say it is cumulative.

"This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon's invulnerable save." Any other, so anything that is not Cursed Earth.

Actually you can read it the other way, you'd be wrong as I understand what they intended to write but it's not what they think they wrote because they used the word any other.

Let's have fun with math!!!!

Replace the phrase other modifier with X


Cursed Earth is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, all models with the Daemon special rule (friend or foe) within 12" of the Psyker have a +1 bonus to their invulnerable save (normally increasing it to 4+). This is cumulative with any X to a Daemon’s invulnerable save. In addition, whilst the power is in effect, friendly units with the Daemon special rule will not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve so long as the first model is placed within 12" of the Psyker.

The problem is ANY ,they should not have written it that way as you can interpret that as

x = Other Modifiers, Cursed Earth, Grimoire, Warp Storm etc..


So you could say

Cursed Earth is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, all models with the Daemon special rule (friend or foe) within 12" of the Psyker have a +1 bonus to their invulnerable save (normally increasing it to 4+). This is cumulative with (Warp Storm,Grimoire, Cursed Earth) to a Daemon’s invulnerable save. In addition, whilst the power is in effect, friendly units with the Daemon special rule will not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve so long as the first model is placed within 12" of the Psyker.


Because they put the stupid word ANY.

it doesn't work that way but yeah it kindofdoes, because they used the word ANY. Saying any other is the same as saying all other that's the problem. They should have said, Cursed Earth is not cumulative. By placing the phrase ANY OTHER, which can be rad as all other, if they'd have written all other modifiers except.


There's actually multiple psychic spells that say they are cumulative. It's the wording I have issue with.

Precision.

Any OTHER.

Other excludes Cursed Earth.

Actually any other can include Cursed Earth because of the word any because it says any other Cursed Earth. If they'd literally say other modifiers, it would have been fine because other and any other are two different phrases, one is exclusion, one is inclusion.

It's shittily written is what I am saying. I know what they meant but any can also mean all and you have to read it that specific way that it is a exclusionary and not inclusionary.

I write legal documents all day long, btw. I would never use that phrase any other. You always specify when you are writing something what is exclusionary and not use phrases like that.

For Example

Bob has a cheese pizza. Bob can pick any other pizza. Bob's choices are Cheese, Pepperoni, Vegetable. Can Bob pick Cheese pizza again?

I gotta work through legal documents all day so I know ya feel

In this very case, "any other" excludes Cursed Earth because it is the only modifier specified before this part of the rule.

Yes and if this was actual legal document it'd be struck and a specific exclusionary phrase would be placed instead, because other modifiers is exclusionary, any other is inclusionary. A 2nd Cursed earth is a any other modifier because it is a 2nd Cursed Earth.


Yeah, reading GW stuff makes me want to tear my hair out sometimes, it's so poorly edited.

Hollismason wrote:


Yeah, reading GW stuff makes me want to tear my hair out sometimes, it's so poorly edited.

Cheers on that

Example:

Bob has a cheese pizza. Bob can pick any other pizza. Bob's choices are Cheese, Pepperoni, Vegetable. Can Bob pick Cheese pizza again? Yes.

Should have been written

Bob has a cheese pizza. Bob can pick any other pizza except cheese . Bob's choices are Cheese, Pepperoni, Vegetable. Can Bob pick Cheese pizza again? No.


If you are going to use the phrase any other, you should include the phrase except the following or another phrasing that doesn't allow it to be all inclusionary.

Hollismason wrote:
Example:

Bob has a cheese pizza. Bob can pick any other pizza. Bob's choices are Cheese, Pepperoni, Vegetable. Can Bob pick Cheese pizza again? Yes.

Should have been written

Bob has a cheese pizza. Bob can pick any other pizza except cheese . Bob's choices are Cheese, Pepperoni, Vegetable. Can Bob pick Cheese pizza again? No.


If you are going to use the phrase any other, you should include the phrase except the following or another phrasing that doesn't allow it to be all inclusionary.

Except in this context there is only one cheese pizza. Bob has been told he may only have one cheese pizza. He is free to chose and have a pepperoni, vegetable, etc.


Since the specific Psychic power does not say it can stack with itself, it cannot as the rule for blessings is that anyone unit may not benefit from it more than once. Context is key here. Had Cursed Earth been meant to be stackable, it would have to have been explicitly allowed. In the context of Cursed Earth and Blessings in 7th Edition, "Any other" means any other source except Scorched Earth. Scorched Earth was written within the framework of 7th Edition Blessing, self exclusion included.

Context is king.

I think the key phrase here is
“all models with the Daemon special rule (friend or foe) within 12" of the Psyker have a +1 bonus to their invulnerable save”
NOT
“all models with the Daemon special rule (friend or foe) within 12" of the Psyker get a +1 bonus to their invulnerable save”
the key difference being that no matter how many cursed earths have been cast, being near the psyker gives you a +1 to your save.

[MOD EDIT - Rule #1, as well as language. - Alpharius]