Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Warmonger2757 wrote:
Can someone explain to me why Jain Zar isn't more widely appreciated? If she reduces the WS of the unit she is charging by 5, most likely to WS 0, this is going to cause whatever unit she is with to hit automatically and the unit she charged to not be able to attack back. Even at a high cost, if she is in a unit with a lot of attacks (like a DE Beast star) that is going to cause a lot of damage. Is there something here I am missing? Sure she's expensive but she is going to get her points back pretty quick if she helps wipe units off the table.

The problem I see with this is that while Jain Zar does reduce the WS and I of the enemy she charged by -5, it does say in the mask of Jain Zar description that it is to a minimum of 1. So the enemy she charges does get to fight back, needing 5's to hit.

The problem with a lot of the Phoenix Lords is that most of them don't have an invulnerable save so if you send them against enemy commanders like Space Marine Captains or Chaos Lords they usually end up getting killed quite easily.

But that has never stopped me from using them. To my way of thinking the Phoenix Lords are bully's. I never send them in to go toe to toe with enemy commanders. The way I see it is, the Eldar are not so stupid as to allow the enemy the priveledge of testing their mettle against the Phoenix Lords. The Mon Keigh are not worthy enough. So I try to send the Phoenix Lords against units that are not really capable of beating them in close combat.

They pick on everyone except close combat specialists. The enemy close combat specialists are usually shot up with my shooting units or de meched and avoided/ ignored.

"Shoot the choppy stuff, chop the shooty stuff". The old adage of all armies, but Eldar make the best use of it. Rldar are bullies in general, both in fluff and on the table. They prey on weak points, while avoiding the strong.

Karandras is decent against some of the commanders...
He should kill most before they get a swing.

His issues start and end with Lysander types (I suppose most do) Storm shields

karandras15 wrote:
Karandras is decent against some of the commanders...
He should kill most before they get a swing.

His issues start and end with Lysander types (I suppose most do) Storm shields

Good thing the SM HQs of choice are Iron Father Smashfether or Lysander lite.

Jain Zar isnt that terrible against tank characters like Lysander - she has disarming strike. She gets more WS than he does, so theres a good chance that Lysander cant even use his hammer in a challenge.

 Kaime wrote:
Jain Zar isnt that terrible against tank characters like Lysander - she has disarming strike. She gets more WS than he does, so theres a good chance that Lysander cant even use his hammer in a challenge.

I will bludgeon you to death with my storm shield...

EDIT: She'll also have issues against vehicles, especially Bjorn.

Man... I just realized the tactical genius of Creed and that makes our SCs look even worse.

If the rules allowed it... , for 240 points, you could have an allied detachment with creed.

I don't think any of our Special Characters come even close to the pure win that 2 rerollable warlord traits are.

morgoth wrote:
Man... I just realized the tactical genius of Creed and that makes our SCs look even worse.

If the rules allowed it... , for 240 points, you could have an allied detachment with creed.

I don't think any of our Special Characters come even close to the pure win that 2 rerollable warlord traits are.

Asurmen gets 3 re-rollable traits on Eldar, that HAS to count for something.

 Timmy149 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Man... I just realized the tactical genius of Creed and that makes our SCs look even worse.

If the rules allowed it... , for 240 points, you could have an allied detachment with creed.

I don't think any of our Special Characters come even close to the pure win that 2 rerollable warlord traits are.

Asurmen gets 3 re-rollable traits on Eldar, that HAS to count for something.

It should have to, but even if you were to get 3 traits on the Eldar table, it's still not worth one common trait from the BRB, not by a long shot in my opinion.

Most of them are just really bad Command traits, which imo are not the best traits at least for Eldar

Eldar traits:

1> one use: 12" re-roll to wound
2> one use: 12" stealth
3> always: warlord and unit run +1"
4> warlord rerolls save rolls of 1
5> warlord has split fire
6> DS does not scatter within 6" of the Warlord

3 to 6 are useless, 1 and 2 are meh because one turn only˙.

Compare to the common pool traits, which can be really good:


Tactical (ATO=active tactical objective)
1> end of turn: discard 2 active ATOs instead of 1
2> one use end of turn: discard 1 random enemy ATO
3> one use first turn: generate +1 ATO
4> one use after generating TO's: re-generate all of them.
5> always: re-roll VP for random VP TO's
6> always: +1 VP for 'Secure Objective X' if Warlord/unit control it

Command (all within 12" of the Warlord)
1> always: friendly units test on Warlord Ld
2> always: enemy units test on lowest Ld
3> always: friendly units and Warlord have "Move Through Cover"
4> always: friendly units and Warlord have +1" to run/charge
5> always: friendly units and Warlord re-roll shoot 1 to Hit
6> always: friendly units and Warlord re-roll assault 1 to Hit

Strategic (all the army has)
1> always: Move Through Cover, Stealth(Ruins)
2> always: Night Vision, 1st turn is Night in Night Fighting games
3> always: Warlord + 3 non-vehicle units have Infiltrate
4> always: re-roll Reserve Rolls, +1 to Seize the Initiative
5> always: -1 to opponent Reserve Rolls
6> start of opponent first turn: 3 enemy units have to take a pinning test

 Araenion wrote:
"Shoot the choppy stuff, chop the shooty stuff". The old adage of all armies...

Except tau. We simplified it to "shoot the stuff"


Anyway. How about the shadow specter lady? How do you think she fares in 7th edition.

4 on warlord traits is good, especially for phoenix lords. Re roll that failed armour save.

I've heard Irillyth has been good in some games, but not too much otherwise. Seems like she does really well in a squad of Spectres, otherwise I don't know.

 Timmy149 wrote:
4 on warlord traits is good, especially for phoenix lords. Re roll that failed armour save.

I've heard Irillyth has been good in some games, but not too much otherwise. Seems like she does really well in a squad of Spectres, otherwise I don't know.

A stronger warlord that is already far too weak to tip the balance of a 1500 points game, compared to a buff to all the army / all within 12" that is always active ? ... come on.

morgoth wrote:

 Timmy149 wrote:
4 on warlord traits is good, especially for phoenix lords. Re roll that failed armour save.

I've heard Irillyth has been good in some games, but not too much otherwise. Seems like she does really well in a squad of Spectres, otherwise I don't know.

A stronger warlord that is already far too weak to tip the balance of a 1500 points game, compared to a buff to all the army / all within 12" that is always active ? ... come on.

It depends on the lord, sure. Asurmen I can see doing wonders with the re-rolling 1s, being the only one that rolls on the table. Besides, this is about whether they are good, not whether creed is better.

 Timmy149 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Timmy149 wrote:
4 on warlord traits is good, especially for phoenix lords. Re roll that failed armour save.

I've heard Irillyth has been good in some games, but not too much otherwise. Seems like she does really well in a squad of Spectres, otherwise I don't know.

A stronger warlord that is already far too weak to tip the balance of a 1500 points game, compared to a buff to all the army / all within 12" that is always active ? ... come on.

It depends on the lord, sure. Asurmen I can see doing wonders with the re-rolling 1s, being the only one that rolls on the table. Besides, this is about whether they are good, not whether creed is better.

Well they aren't good, and comparing them with other options from other codex's shows a wide gap that says: your Eldar special characters are overpriced and underperforming.
The only one that may still be relevant is Eldrad because he possesses his own brand of Tactical Genius that can definitely change a game.
See, I deployed left. ooo you deploy left too, let me 1+1D3 redeploy right, turbo/flatout the rest 1st turn and I concave your army from the side, gg.

morgoth wrote:

 Timmy149 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Timmy149 wrote:
4 on warlord traits is good, especially for phoenix lords. Re roll that failed armour save.

I've heard Irillyth has been good in some games, but not too much otherwise. Seems like she does really well in a squad of Spectres, otherwise I don't know.

A stronger warlord that is already far too weak to tip the balance of a 1500 points game, compared to a buff to all the army / all within 12" that is always active ? ... come on.

It depends on the lord, sure. Asurmen I can see doing wonders with the re-rolling 1s, being the only one that rolls on the table. Besides, this is about whether they are good, not whether creed is better.

Well they aren't good, and comparing them with other options from other codex's shows a wide gap that says: your Eldar special characters are overpriced and underperforming.
The only one that may still be relevant is Eldrad because he possesses his own brand of Tactical Genius that can definitely change a game.
See, I deployed left. ooo you deploy left too, let me 1+1D3 redeploy right, turbo/flatout the rest 1st turn and I concave your army from the side, gg.

The difference being that Creed with his orders is similar to Eldrad, pretty much any of the phoenix lords will destroy a guard army given a way to get there.

 Timmy149 wrote:
The difference being that Creed with his orders is similar to Eldrad, pretty much any of the phoenix lords will destroy a guard army given a way to get there.

Well, a Phoenix Lord will destroy a Guard unit, at which point it will take approximately two thousand lasgun shots to the face. Even a 2+ save can't dodge ALL of those.