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I've been thinking about whether or not the Phoenix Lords are competitive, and the way I see it, they could be at low points, but not so much at higher limits. The lack of Eternal Warrior seems to be the biggest downside, though they can throw out a good deal of damage, particularly in the case of Karandras or Fuegan. Curious to find out what you of the Dakka community think about this.

Double check your codex. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Dire avenger Phoenix lord=WIIIN
But no seriously there are so Many threads about this mate, look up each Phoenix lords name on the search engine and find a plethora of IMO already up and running

If the shadow sect of karandras is still legal, it is pretty ridiculous formation for a base 7th ed list

Pops in out of terrain and assaults that turn, the apoc formation makes it unbound, though...still, for a mere 600 points to put scorpions in the opponents backfield running around mercilessly is a pretty great deal

Each of the Phoenix Lords have their uses (they do still have EW btw). You didn't see them that much in 6th simply because taking double Jetseers was a thing, which obviously precludes taking a Phoenix Lord, but now that psykers in general are a bit less powerful without batteries, you might see people looking at them for 7th.

Going through each of them quickly:

Asurmen -- Kind of a generalist. Quite Expensive. Getting D3 rerolled warlord traits (I'm assuming Battle Forged) is potentially interesting, although they're only from Eldar Warlord traits. Other than that, he doesn't do much for your army and he needs a place to go.

Jain Zar -- If you can get her into CC, she'll do well. Other than that she doesn't do much. Maybe put her in a DE Tantalus with Striking Scorpions or something?

Karandras -- Also really nasty in CC (S8 AP2 5A @ I7), and with infiltrate he can at least get there a bit faster. Unfortunately I still don't think he can bring a unit without Infiltrate along for the ride, so it'd have to be Scorpions or...Mandrakes... He also grants stealth, if you need it on a unit for some reason.

Fuegan -- He adds another two melta shots to a Fire Dragon Squad, and gives them some melee prowess. I know a friend of mine had an idea for a deathstar back in 6th where he'd tank for a bunch of DE Grots while a seer council would cast Renewer on him so he'd just get more and more powerful as the game went on -- very janky and not too effective this edition, but fun.

Baharroth -- He might actually be the most useful one. He can come in and do a blind test, throw his grenade pack, and then jump into reserves next turn if you need to keep him safe. He's also below 200 points for an HQ. Lastly, Baron Sathonyx is likely going to disappear whenever Dark Eldar get updated cause he doesn't have a model, so you'll need Baharroth to give your Seer Council/Beastpack Hit and Run.

Maugan Ra -- Not too useful imo. On the cheap side for a Phoenix Lord, but his gun just isn't that amazing compared to something like the Pask Punisher. 20 Rending shots, even at BS4, is a lot nastier than 5 Rending shots at BS7, and the Pask Punisher costs barely more than Maugan Ra, and benefits from 7th edition vehicle buffs.

So on the whole, Karandras and Baharroth were the most popular Phoenix Lords back in 6th, and from a quick look, it doesn't seem like that's changed. They weren't very competitive back in 6th, but that may change now.

 Thariinye wrote:
Lastly, Baron Sathonyx is likely going to disappear whenever Dark Eldar get updated cause he doesn't have a model

Or the much more likely thing is that they make a model for him.

 Timmy149 wrote:
. The lack of Eternal Warrior seems to be the biggest downside,

Uh dude, they ALL specifically have eternal warrior. In fact, I believe the rule was conceived for them initially.

I have no idea how I missed the EW... Probably because I was tired at the time and then thought they were bad as a result. Overall seems like they are largely situational based on what you run the unit with.

Also what do you mean by the Shadow Sect? Is this a current 40k dataslate? I can only find the old apoc sheet, so a little confused.

 Thariinye wrote:
Each of the Phoenix Lords have their uses (they do still have EW btw). You didn't see them that much in 6th simply because taking double Jetseers was a thing, which obviously precludes taking a Phoenix Lord, but now that psykers in general are a bit less powerful without batteries, you might see people looking at them for 7th.

Going through each of them quickly:

Asurmen -- Kind of a generalist. Quite Expensive. Getting D3 rerolled warlord traits (I'm assuming Battle Forged) is potentially interesting, although they're only from Eldar Warlord traits. Other than that, he doesn't do much for your army and he needs a place to go.

Jain Zar -- If you can get her into CC, she'll do well. Other than that she doesn't do much. Maybe put her in a DE Tantalus with Striking Scorpions or something?

Karandras -- Also really nasty in CC (S8 AP2 5A @ I7), and with infiltrate he can at least get there a bit faster. Unfortunately I still don't think he can bring a unit without Infiltrate along for the ride, so it'd have to be Scorpions or...Mandrakes... He also grants stealth, if you need it on a unit for some reason.

Fuegan -- He adds another two melta shots to a Fire Dragon Squad, and gives them some melee prowess. I know a friend of mine had an idea for a deathstar back in 6th where he'd tank for a bunch of DE Grots while a seer council would cast Renewer on him so he'd just get more and more powerful as the game went on -- very janky and not too effective this edition, but fun.

Baharroth -- He might actually be the most useful one. He can come in and do a blind test, throw his grenade pack, and then jump into reserves next turn if you need to keep him safe. He's also below 200 points for an HQ. Lastly, Baron Sathonyx is likely going to disappear whenever Dark Eldar get updated cause he doesn't have a model, so you'll need Baharroth to give your Seer Council/Beastpack Hit and Run.

Maugan Ra -- Not too useful imo. On the cheap side for a Phoenix Lord, but his gun just isn't that amazing compared to something like the Pask Punisher. 20 Rending shots, even at BS4, is a lot nastier than 5 Rending shots at BS7, and the Pask Punisher costs barely more than Maugan Ra, and benefits from 7th edition vehicle buffs.

So on the whole, Karandras and Baharroth were the most popular Phoenix Lords back in 6th, and from a quick look, it doesn't seem like that's changed. They weren't very competitive back in 6th, but that may change now.

Considering most of them cost you a WK.. or a 5DA+Serpent, I'm not quite sure how they can be competitive, other than you have to take an HQ choice so they don't exactly cost you 200+ points.

Baron may be nerfed, but he will certainly get a model considering the number of people who play him and what he brings until there's a new codex.

I don't see them becoming competitive unless they lose at least 20% cost in points.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Thariinye wrote:
Lastly, Baron Sathonyx is likely going to disappear whenever Dark Eldar get updated cause he doesn't have a model

Or the much more likely thing is that they make a model for him.

Considering history, why is that likely?

None of them are 'competative'. But all the ones I've tried have been fun.

The changes to challenges, while I like them, mean that my PLs can't hide from a squad in a challenge anymore. This means, while Karrandas is killing Sarge or Nobby or whatever, he has to tank the rest of the squad, once his dies (and his squad always dies, against any reasonable melee unit).

Most of the time they'll have a 2+ armor save, but some units have either multiple characters, or AP2 on non-characters. Even without AP2, a 2+ only goes so far with only 3 wounds.

Considering what you're paying, there are usually better ways to do what they're doing, but not more fun ways.

My impresssions/experiences:

Asuraman - Can kill a whole army solo, or die to non-APing overwatch on his first charge. Has a reasonable chance for a 2+ rerollable armor, and is great against non-APing stuff if he gets it, but without, he's only 3 bad rolls away from dying. But with his initiative, he'll kill a bunch first (note- 'Soul Razor' rarely goes off). My favorite.

Karrandas - Woopass in a can. Not worth his points, but he really knows how to knock heads. Haven't fielded him often, but he really kills stuff dead. He's also a lot of fun.

Maugan Ra - He shoots. Decently. As mentioned above, 5 shots is nice, but not that significant. I enjoyed him, but he didn't do much.

Baharoth - Still sitting on the counter. Basically everything that's true about his Aspect are true about him. He's fast, he does lots of fun tricks, but don't expect him to route the enemy. A skirmisher through and through. Can't wait to field him.

Fuegan - Also, sitting on my table still - All your AP2 needs, in one (expensive) package. 2x18" Melta shots, and an AP2 axe. Split Fire warlord trait, IIRC, so he can join anything (advancing DAs with shimmershield maybe?). He wants to be close to the enemy. With an axe, though, his initiative doesn't matter much. However, as he takes wounds, he gets more attacks. Highly specialized, but interesting, it seems. Worth a try, IMO.

Jain Zar - Mostly does what Karrandas does, but weaker. She can run faster, but can't infiltrate, no stealth, not s8. She also has a better shooting attack, but it's not amazing either. Much like Banshees, take her when you know you're up against Marines (her shooting hurts them), and would rather run up than infiltrate (rarely, if ever). Although she could be a decent 'Are you sure you want to charge?' HQ in a more shooty unit. I want to try her, but she doesn't seem to have much going for her.

Irrilyth - I haven't picked her up yet - Seems like a fun toy, but not a serious contender. She has a lot of great uses, but everything seems to be one point short of worthwhile. She could put the hurt on Termies, and has a decent first round of melee (provided you charged what she shot, otherwise not at all). Also, if you want to do a pre-dawn raid (nightfighting! gogogo!), double-check her (forgeworld downloadable) rules.

I think Asurmen is quite good but need to think against the grain for a list to make work around him.

I think Baharoth might be descent in 7th but not sure on him yet.

I really like some phoenix lords. Fuegan is one of my favourites, and Asurmen is actually worth the points these days (used to be grossly overpriced.

The problem is to fit their niche roles in an everyday eldar list. Most of them being suited up for close combat, where Eldar in general dont want to be.

They need a good support unit, and somehow their own aspect ususlly dont supplement the lord that well.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Thariinye wrote:
Lastly, Baron Sathonyx is likely going to disappear whenever Dark Eldar get updated cause he doesn't have a model

Or the much more likely thing is that they make a model for him.

Considering history, why is that likely?

Right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fuegan, Asurman, and Karandras are your powerhouse characters.

Baharroth is excellent with a player that knows Hawks well.

Maugen Ra and Jain Zarr are the only lackluster choices...though Maugen can lay down some fire.

Irillyth is meh...but pretty!

Asurmen has a power that says he re-rolls 1's to save.
He has a 2+/4++ (can be 3++ in a challenge).
If I'm not mistaken, he can re-roll 1's on his invul as well.

That makes him a pretty solid tank. You could stick him in a unit of wraithblades to soak the shooting the turn you disembark.

-Matt

None of them are competitive.
Are some good? Yes.
Are they for friendly play, or for non competitive tournaments? Go for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Asurmen has a power that says he re-rolls 1's to save.
He has a 2+/4++ (can be 3++ in a challenge).
If I'm not mistaken, he can re-roll 1's on his invul as well.

That makes him a pretty solid tank. You could stick him in a unit of wraithblades to soak the shooting the turn you disembark.

-Matt

And its a warlord trait for the re roll ones

Bharring wrote:


Fuegan - Also, sitting on my table still - All your AP2 needs, in one (expensive) package. 2x18" Melta shots, and an AP2 axe. Split Fire warlord trait, IIRC, so he can join anything (advancing DAs with shimmershield maybe?). He wants to be close to the enemy. With an axe, though, his initiative doesn't matter much. However, as he takes wounds, he gets more attacks. Highly specialized, but interesting, it seems. Worth a try, IMO.
.

The fire axe isn't unwieldly so unless I've missed something in the new rule book he'll still get his I7 too I think.

They are all fun and I love them dearly, but for a competitive game, a spirit seer and a wave serpent or two double bright lance walkers will be much, much better 99% of the time.

Note that this does not stop me from fielding them when I am not in a tournament!

 Timmy149 wrote:
I have no idea how I missed the EW... Probably because I was tired at the time and then thought they were bad as a result. Overall seems like they are largely situational based on what you run the unit with.

Also what do you mean by the Shadow Sect? Is this a current 40k dataslate? I can only find the old apoc sheet, so a little confused.

7th ed allows apoc formations...it is not specific to which apoc formations...because the shadow sect hasn't been updated, then it could concieveably be used in a 7th edition game.

Which while making your army unbound, would allow your scorpion units to emerge from any terrain and Karandras's unit may assault the turn it enters play. The rqmts are 2+ units of scorpions, Karandras and a 150 point penalty, methinks.

I have the name Karandras on here because I use him every apoc game I play with eldar...I've literally killed about 60 long fangs and 100s of tau with him over the years

karandras15 wrote:

 Timmy149 wrote:
I have no idea how I missed the EW... Probably because I was tired at the time and then thought they were bad as a result. Overall seems like they are largely situational based on what you run the unit with.

Also what do you mean by the Shadow Sect? Is this a current 40k dataslate? I can only find the old apoc sheet, so a little confused.

7th ed allows apoc formations...it is not specific to which apoc formations...because the shadow sect hasn't been updated, then it could concieveably be used in a 7th edition game.

Which while making your army unbound, would allow your scorpion units to emerge from any terrain and Karandras's unit may assault the turn it enters play. The rqmts are 2+ units of scorpions, Karandras and a 150 point penalty, methinks.

I have the name Karandras on here because I use him every apoc game I play with eldar...I've literally killed about 60 long fangs and 100s of tau with him over the years

I think most opponents would let you use it in a casual game, but idk about tourneys allowing an outdated datasheet.

Yeah, I just scoured the rules, and RAW, the shadow sect is legit...

Combine that with some wraithknights and gravtank/fd spam, whoa in a 1850 game...

Much less teamed up with an imperial knight


It might not be quite as good as the hooker bomb (the promenade), but it's a solid assault tactic

Can someone explain to me why Jain Zar isn't more widely appreciated? If she reduces the WS of the unit she is charging by 5, most likely to WS 0, this is going to cause whatever unit she is with to hit automatically and the unit she charged to not be able to attack back. Even at a high cost, if she is in a unit with a lot of attacks (like a DE Beast star) that is going to cause a lot of damage. Is there something here I am missing? Sure she's expensive but she is going to get her points back pretty quick if she helps wipe units off the table.

Warmonger2757 wrote:
Can someone explain to me why Jain Zar isn't more widely appreciated? If she reduces the WS of the unit she is charging by 5, most likely to WS 0, this is going to cause whatever unit she is with to hit automatically and the unit she charged to not be able to attack back. Even at a high cost, if she is in a unit with a lot of attacks (like a DE Beast star) that is going to cause a lot of damage. Is there something here I am missing? Sure she's expensive but she is going to get her points back pretty quick if she helps wipe units off the table.

The problem of her is getting her to combat, no matter how you look at it she is in the open for at least a turn, two if the opponent goes first or usually much more if the opponent doesnt get charged by a unit with an infantry character in it.

This problem doesnt get any better with transport since wave serpents wont allow jain zar to charge the turn she comes out so she waits in the open yet again. And the raider with that important of a unit inside will surely get shot down at the first opportunity, either after or before the flat out move you might get.

So actually she is fine if she sees combat, the problem arrises either before that or after you destroy an enemy unit and get shot by the rest of the opponents army.

 pizzaguardian wrote:

Warmonger2757 wrote:
Can someone explain to me why Jain Zar isn't more widely appreciated? If she reduces the WS of the unit she is charging by 5, most likely to WS 0, this is going to cause whatever unit she is with to hit automatically and the unit she charged to not be able to attack back. Even at a high cost, if she is in a unit with a lot of attacks (like a DE Beast star) that is going to cause a lot of damage. Is there something here I am missing? Sure she's expensive but she is going to get her points back pretty quick if she helps wipe units off the table.

The problem of her is getting her to combat, no matter how you look at it she is in the open for at least a turn, two if the opponent goes first or usually much more if the opponent doesnt get charged by a unit with an infantry character in it.

This problem doesnt get any better with transport since wave serpents wont allow jain zar to charge the turn she comes out so she waits in the open yet again. And the raider with that important of a unit inside will surely get shot down at the first opportunity, either after or before the flat out move you might get.

So actually she is fine if she sees combat, the problem arrises either before that or after you destroy an enemy unit and get shot by the rest of the opponents army.

All you need now is 3 Bloodbrides, Lelith and a Venom. Then charge some low toughness units!

So if data sheets are allowed in Unbound... Phoenix Court of Khaine anyone?

The rules listed with the downloaded formations say that Apoc formations are apoc only. I had been looking forward to phoenix councils and suler wraithknights but it is not to be. The 2 Revenant formation from Valedor would be nasty with 1 pulse 1 sonic.

Timmy149 wrote:I've been thinking about whether or not the Phoenix Lords are competitive, and the way I see it, they could be at low points, but not so much at higher limits. The lack of Eternal Warrior seems to be the biggest downside, though they can throw out a good deal of damage, particularly in the case of Karandras or Fuegan. Curious to find out what you of the Dakka community think about this.

Timmy149 wrote:I've been thinking about whether or not the Phoenix Lords are competitive, and the way I see it, they could be at low points, but not so much at higher limits. The lack of Eternal Warrior seems to be the biggest downside, though they can throw out a good deal of damage, particularly in the case of Karandras or Fuegan. Curious to find out what you of the Dakka community think about this.

I've had some success with them in the past. A couple of favourite setups are;

Asurmen, Eldrad and a unit of Wraith(whatever) chilling in a Wave Serpent. Stupid expensive, but with a flat-out, then disembark, you are very likely to make it to combat. New Psychic phase helps keep them alive when they pop out too.

Baharroth w/ two full squads of Hawks, exarch w/ Sunrifle. Blind all the things, survive their shooting, then get Barry into combat. Send him against things like Devastators, Scouts, broadsides, anything camping in your opponents backfield. Don't try and rout the army, just be as annoying as possible. Skyleap when appropriate, and/or the squad gets depleted a bit. Start them on the table, then skyleap on turn 1. Drop 3 Ap4 Ignore cover blasts when you drop down. Shred ALL the infantry. Avoid interceptor like the plague.

Warmonger2757 wrote:
Can someone explain to me why Jain Zar isn't more widely appreciated? If she reduces the WS of the unit she is charging by 5, most likely to WS 0, this is going to cause whatever unit she is with to hit automatically and the unit she charged to not be able to attack back. Even at a high cost, if she is in a unit with a lot of attacks (like a DE Beast star) that is going to cause a lot of damage. Is there something here I am missing? Sure she's expensive but she is going to get her points back pretty quick if she helps wipe units off the table.

Vect and his beeoiches, riding gansta style in a pimped out dias.

Vect + Lelith + Jain + 7 wyches.

Jain makes a model -5 WS. Lelith gains 9 - opponents WS in bonus attacks; which against just about everything is 8 bonus attacks.
Paired up with vect (who gives preferred enemy everyone), you got a pretty brutal combat.
You can expect on the charge, ~21 S3 AP3 attacks, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound, and 6 S4 AP2 attacks, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound.

Too bad it's 1,000ish points for the 3 of them and the required 7 bodies that must start in the dias.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Warmonger2757 wrote:
Can someone explain to me why Jain Zar isn't more widely appreciated? If she reduces the WS of the unit she is charging by 5, most likely to WS 0, this is going to cause whatever unit she is with to hit automatically and the unit she charged to not be able to attack back. Even at a high cost, if she is in a unit with a lot of attacks (like a DE Beast star) that is going to cause a lot of damage. Is there something here I am missing? Sure she's expensive but she is going to get her points back pretty quick if she helps wipe units off the table.

Vect and his beeoiches, riding gansta style in a pimped out dias.

Vect + Lelith + Jain + 7 wyches.

Jain makes a model -5 WS. Lelith gains 9 - opponents WS in bonus attacks; which against just about everything is 8 bonus attacks.
Paired up with vect (who gives preferred enemy everyone), you got a pretty brutal combat.
You can expect on the charge, ~21 S3 AP3 attacks, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound, and 6 S4 AP2 attacks, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound.

Too bad it's 1,000ish points for the 3 of them and the required 7 bodies that must start in the dias.

Lelith is AP 2. Its great.

Scratch that... I thought Asurmen could kick ass, but he can only roll on that crappy Eldar Warlord Traits table so ... no thanks.