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They can't.

GW has given plenty of examples of them doing it, but they all spit on a firmly established part of the setting: After the Heresy the Legions were split up into Chapters of limited size so they cannot be a threat on their own.

Mat Ward didn't just walk in off the street saying "I want to write some over the top rubbish!" (ie: Mortarion's heart), he was summoned into existence by the weight of 20 years of GW employees letting their marine fanboyism override a core tenet of the setting.

also if the Planetary defenses are sub-par it may only take a squad example 10 marines fighting simple civilians ,considering the average marine carries 12 magazines each containing around 30 bolts 30x12x10=3600 shots able to kill a regular human in one shot (maybe more as they explode) now I believe that could handle a small country or at least a crappy planetary defense force, also as space marines are near god like to normal people little resistance can be expected but this would only be against human held planets, against a tyranid or ork infested one they are screwed but say against a small dark elder or tau world they would do just fine

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hate it.

It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.

Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.

Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.

I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.

Wat.

Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.

Of course, they wouldn't be the worst faction. At least you can sometime surrender to Space Marines. Daemons, Necrons, and Tyranids just completely demolish the planet without a chance in hell of you surviving without divine intervention. At least against Orks, Tau, and the Imperial Guard we could put up something resembling a fight.

Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheSilo wrote:
Keep in mind, that not all planets are hive worlds or garden worlds. Conquering an entire planet might mean just capturing a few small cities if it's a death world, or ice world, feral world, or is inhospitable for a variety of reasons.

Frankly, I prefer the image of the Space Marines nuking major population centers, planting a flag saying "mission accomplished", while the guardsmen are stuck fighting insurgents for the next ten years, a la Iraq.

It's not really headcanon actually. That's pretty much what happens all the time in the fluff. Space Marines sack a planet silly, piss off the inhabitants and scare them senseless, then zip right back into space and leave some poor unfortunate guardsmen and arbites the job of keeping the peace. The job of an Astartes is to simply kill everything holding a gun.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hate it.

It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.

Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.

Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.

I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.

Wat.

Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.

Of course, they wouldn't be the worst faction. At least you can sometime surrender to Space Marines. Daemons, Necrons, and Tyranids just completely demolish the planet without a chance in hell of you surviving without divine intervention. At least against Orks, Tau, and the Imperial Guard we could put up something resembling a fight.

Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheSilo wrote:
Keep in mind, that not all planets are hive worlds or garden worlds. Conquering an entire planet might mean just capturing a few small cities if it's a death world, or ice world, feral world, or is inhospitable for a variety of reasons.

Frankly, I prefer the image of the Space Marines nuking major population centers, planting a flag saying "mission accomplished", while the guardsmen are stuck fighting insurgents for the next ten years, a la Iraq.

It's not really headcanon actually. That's pretty much what happens all the time in the fluff. Space Marines sack a planet silly, piss off the inhabitants and scare them senseless, then zip right back into space and leave some poor unfortunate guardsmen and arbites the job of keeping the peace. The job of an Astartes is to simply kill everything holding a gun.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about a modern army's ability to combat Space Marines. I am beyond confident that the. United States military would be completely capable of the destruction of an entire Space Marines chapter. Though it's completely impossible to debate this with factual evidence.

When the loyalist WE's (their numbers I'm guessing in the thousands) are holding off a whole city (hundreds of thousands) they seemed a bit 'busy' to do much else but fight off simple civilians. These people were armed with everything and anything, including shards of pottery. And they still managed to take down a WE or two.
to say normal people have not a chance against SM's is laughable. Numbers make up for poor quality more times than not.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hate it.

It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.

Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.

Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.

I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.

Wat.

Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.

Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.

No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.

There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.

I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.

Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.

Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.

Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesnt need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart

When the loyalist WE's (their numbers I'm guessing in the thousands) are holding off a whole city (hundreds of thousands) they seemed a bit 'busy' to do much else but fight off simple civilians. These people were armed with everything and anything, including shards of pottery. And they still managed to take down a WE or two.
to say normal people have not a chance against SM's is laughable. Numbers make up for poor quality more times than not.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hate it.

It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.

Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.

Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.

I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.

Wat.

Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.

Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.

No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.

There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.

I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.

Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.

Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.

Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesnt need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart

You really hate Space Marines, I see. Unfortunately for you your arguments hold no grounds whatsoever. Because if GW says a squad can rampage across a planet until it simply surrenders, then it can. All assuming you won't just headcanon everything away (Which I assume you have, making this discussion pointless) then you need to adapt your own views, normally designed for use in our own universe, to the setting. Okay. A squad can take a planet. Do not say 'That's ridiculous!'. Think instead. Why can they take a planet? Maybe that way? No, that's not enough. Or that? No, that's not enough either. But maybe this way? Yes, this is the only way it'd work. Then that is the way it is.

Space Marines are obviously gods of war by modern standards, given how effective they are portrayed as in warzones so much more than ours. You think they are ineffective? But they are clad in space-armour, using space-guns shooting space-bullets and punching you with space-fists. You know how the earth being round was something unthinkable centuries ago? Or how aircraft was forever doomed to be fiction? Yeah, it's the same thing. We have no idea of how these things really work, we do not know how impact-resilient Ceramite is, except by using the shown feats of Ceramite. Which are considerable.

Space Marines, to me, are one of the coolest parts of the entire setting. Normally you have sci-fi settings where big strong things are made redundant because of the ludicrous firepower available, but 40K's science fantasy blends sci-fi with classic themes like great monsters and mighty heroes laying waste to the battlefield. If you just want IGhammer 40K like it sounds, then why not just take one of the other sci-fi settings where everything dies like chumps instead of picking the one where Necrons, Ork monsters, Space Marines and Eldar (And so on) run across the battlefield and tank earth-shattering firepower, each in their own way, without breaking a sweat?

If Space Marines are strong enough to be effective despite the drawback of great size, well, then it seems they are! And since they are, they are! Logic!

It is not stupid at all when you think about it.

Welcome to 40K, leave that useless Earth logic of yours at the door and you'll find it much easier to enjoy yourself.

slade the sniper wrote:
I keep seeing and reading how Space Marines can conquer an entire planet with just a Chapter or two, and how one Primarch can solo an entire army or conquer a planet single handedly....

The question is...HOW?

They use strike forces to sneak in and take out the planetary defenses, then come into orbit and destroy the largest or toughest force by either orbital bombardment or like the 300 and take it with the assistance of many times their own number of IG. Once the big dogs are down, the Space Marines claim victory and the IG are tasked with occupation.

Space Marine victory is simply destroying the largest threat and calling it a day.

Perhaps the statement "A single squad can conquer a world" is part hyperbole and part Imperial propaganda. Maybe a singe squad can perform actions that greatly assist in the conquest of a world but it's ultimately up to the Imperial Guard to actually take and hold territory.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Perhaps the statement "A single squad can conquer a world" is part hyperbole and part Imperial propaganda. Maybe a singe squad can perform actions that greatly assist in the conquest of a world but it's ultimately up to the Imperial Guard to actually take and hold territory.

Ten Space Marines are physically incapable of holding a planet alone, no matter how shooty their guns are, how choppy they are or how tough they are.

I do not doubt this.

However, they can still be instrumental in taking a planet, because as your dog-standard rebel leader, you don't really have any way to stop them from rampaging through your men at leisure.

A massive distraction if I ever saw one- especially if they drop down right outside the enemy HQ. In addition to being a hammer blow to enemy morale.

Simply saying GW said so kinda clearly shows that its a poorly thought out idea.

I also share the opinion that the only plausible way of Space Marines doing much is with the aid of the Imperial Guard. So really its just the Imperial Guard who conquer planets while the Space Marines help. This, combined with the effective propaganda of the imperium is why the Space Marines are considered awesome.

Im gonna go tinfoil hat and say this is because it would be too much of a strain to use the expensive poster boys to do anything it says they can, so they have enough to show their presence but the important resources are sent to the guard to produce their far more effective weapons of war.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Spoiler:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hate it.

It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.

Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.

Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.

I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.

Wat.

Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.

Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.

No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.

There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.

I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.

Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.

Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.

Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesnt need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart

You really hate Space Marines, I see. Unfortunately for you your arguments hold no grounds whatsoever. Because if GW says a squad can rampage across a planet until it simply surrenders, then it can. All assuming you won't just headcanon everything away (Which I assume you have, making this discussion pointless) then you need to adapt your own views, normally designed for use in our own universe, to the setting. Okay. A squad can take a planet. Do not say 'That's ridiculous!'. Think instead. Why can they take a planet? Maybe that way? No, that's not enough. Or that? No, that's not enough either. But maybe this way? Yes, this is the only way it'd work. Then that is the way it is.

Space Marines are obviously gods of war by modern standards, given how effective they are portrayed as in warzones so much more than ours. You think they are ineffective? But they are clad in space-armour, using space-guns shooting space-bullets and punching you with space-fists. You know how the earth being round was something unthinkable centuries ago? Or how aircraft was forever doomed to be fiction? Yeah, it's the same thing. We have no idea of how these things really work, we do not know how impact-resilient Ceramite is, except by using the shown feats of Ceramite. Which are considerable.

Space Marines, to me, are one of the coolest parts of the entire setting. Normally you have sci-fi settings where big strong things are made redundant because of the ludicrous firepower available, but 40K's science fantasy blends sci-fi with classic themes like great monsters and mighty heroes laying waste to the battlefield. If you just want IGhammer 40K like it sounds, then why not just take one of the other sci-fi settings where everything dies like chumps instead of picking the one where Necrons, Ork monsters, Space Marines and Eldar (And so on) run across the battlefield and tank earth-shattering firepower, each in their own way, without breaking a sweat?

If Space Marines are strong enough to be effective despite the drawback of great size, well, then it seems they are! And since they are, they are! Logic!

It is not stupid at all when you think about it.

Welcome to 40K, leave that useless Earth logic of yours at the door and you'll find it much easier to enjoy yourself.

Simply saying GW said so kinda clearly shows that its a poorly thought out idea.

I also share the opinion that the only plausible way of Space Marines doing much is with the aid of the Imperial Guard. So really its just the Imperial Guard who conquer planets while the Space Marines help. This, combined with the effective propaganda of the imperium is why the Space Marines are considered awesome.

Im gonna go tinfoil hat and say this is because it would be too much of a strain to use the expensive poster boys to do anything it says they can, so they have enough to show their presence but the importan resources are sent to the guard to produce their far more effective weapons of war.

Well of course, but that is because you are exactly like the Marine fanboys I so often see people complain on. Except that you are an IG fanboy instead of a SM one.

I mean really.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I also share the opinion that the only plausible way of Space Marines doing much is with the aid of the Imperial Guard.

That's just brutal, man. I thought myself a die-hard Marine fangirl, but I have never been close to suggesting that IG can only accomplish things with the aid of the SM.

You take this to a whole new level.

 Pyeatt wrote:
To use the example of Navy bombing islands for days then sending marines in...

Those were typically prepared positions, tunnel systems and the likes, against enemies with hearts hardened to kill.

An orbital bombardment.. oh look, Tokyo, BOOOOM, Atlanta, BOOOOM, Detroit... well even the Astartes in space are scared of Detroit.. But you get the idea. When they can flatten every civilian population, why would they shoot at prepared positions to subjugate our planet by force?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seems easier to do what we did to Japan in WW2... Knock out a few major cities and promise more is easily on the way.

Whoa whoa whoa, let's leave Atlanta out of this. Let's move it farther North or South.

I'm with Ash on this one and I'm an Imperial Guard fanboy to the end. Space Marines have accomplished things that the Imperial Guard could never do no matter how many men they threw at it. The Astral Knights took down a Necron Death Star by deep striking onto it and blowing it to pieces. If the Guard had tried the same they would have been beaten so hard it would have cost more resources than went into the creation and supply of the Astral Knights. Not to mention they're reliable counters to traitor marines and are shock troopers without compare. They may not be a lot of them but applied correctly their small numbers go a long way.

I think ya'll both show two extremes of the argument (I am healthily leaning towards swasakowey myself).

But the only thing we've seen in this thread to support the marines are:

Because GW says so.

And

Space ships.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Spoiler:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hate it.

It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.

Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.

Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.

I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.

Wat.

Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.

Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.

No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.

There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.

I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.

Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.

Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.

Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesnt need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart

You really hate Space Marines, I see. Unfortunately for you your arguments hold no grounds whatsoever. Because if GW says a squad can rampage across a planet until it simply surrenders, then it can. All assuming you won't just headcanon everything away (Which I assume you have, making this discussion pointless) then you need to adapt your own views, normally designed for use in our own universe, to the setting. Okay. A squad can take a planet. Do not say 'That's ridiculous!'. Think instead. Why can they take a planet? Maybe that way? No, that's not enough. Or that? No, that's not enough either. But maybe this way? Yes, this is the only way it'd work. Then that is the way it is.

Space Marines are obviously gods of war by modern standards, given how effective they are portrayed as in warzones so much more than ours. You think they are ineffective? But they are clad in space-armour, using space-guns shooting space-bullets and punching you with space-fists. You know how the earth being round was something unthinkable centuries ago? Or how aircraft was forever doomed to be fiction? Yeah, it's the same thing. We have no idea of how these things really work, we do not know how impact-resilient Ceramite is, except by using the shown feats of Ceramite. Which are considerable.

Space Marines, to me, are one of the coolest parts of the entire setting. Normally you have sci-fi settings where big strong things are made redundant because of the ludicrous firepower available, but 40K's science fantasy blends sci-fi with classic themes like great monsters and mighty heroes laying waste to the battlefield. If you just want IGhammer 40K like it sounds, then why not just take one of the other sci-fi settings where everything dies like chumps instead of picking the one where Necrons, Ork monsters, Space Marines and Eldar (And so on) run across the battlefield and tank earth-shattering firepower, each in their own way, without breaking a sweat?

If Space Marines are strong enough to be effective despite the drawback of great size, well, then it seems they are! And since they are, they are! Logic!

It is not stupid at all when you think about it.

Welcome to 40K, leave that useless Earth logic of yours at the door and you'll find it much easier to enjoy yourself.

Simply saying GW said so kinda clearly shows that its a poorly thought out idea.

I also share the opinion that the only plausible way of Space Marines doing much is with the aid of the Imperial Guard. So really its just the Imperial Guard who conquer planets while the Space Marines help. This, combined with the effective propaganda of the imperium is why the Space Marines are considered awesome.

Im gonna go tinfoil hat and say this is because it would be too much of a strain to use the expensive poster boys to do anything it says they can, so they have enough to show their presence but the importan resources are sent to the guard to produce their far more effective weapons of war.

Well of course, but that is because you are exactly like the Marine fanboys I so often see people complain on. Except that you are an IG fanboy instead of a SM one.

I mean really.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I also share the opinion that the only plausible way of Space Marines doing much is with the aid of the Imperial Guard.

That's just brutal, man. I thought myself a die-hard Marine fangirl, but I have never been close to suggesting that IG can only accomplish things with the aid of the SM.

You take this to a whole new level.

I wouldnt call myself a Guard fan boy. So much of that is just as dumb. But at least some of it isnt crazy and thats why I like them. The reason I like Guard is for example the las gun has had a lot more thought behind why they have it. The bolt gun is there just because (to put it very simply of course). Just the Imperial guard has more basis in reality than say space marines or demons. So I find the imperial Guard a nice compromise of the best of both worlds.

But dont worry. Being like me sucks I cant even watch action movies or anything because of how ridiculous I find them all. Id much rather read my history books or documentaries. So its a curse not a blessing. I wish I could think like you and enjoy things "just because".

Earth's history is full of tiny forces conquering entire nations given a technological advantage, some luck, a bit of ruthlessness and a weakened target. The most classic example is the Spanish and the Aztecs of course, but there are many more.

Could a squad of space marines personally conquer earth if humanity was united against them and willing to die to dive them off? No. In game terms they're barely equal to 100 mook humans. Fluff is kinder to them, but even then it seems beyond reasonable. They might kill a great many leaders, but all that would do would give the problem of having no one who could surrender to them.

Could a squad of space marines (with a ship and some support) conquer earth today? Sure. Divide and conquer. Sow confusion and discord. Claim to be the salvation of the downtrodden. Get one group of natives beating on the other other, provide overwhelming force at the critical point in the conflict, install yourself as God-Kings. It's worked many times in the past.

I never said I considered your mindset a blessing. I am very happy with my super-Marines, tyvm.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I never said I considered your mindset a blessing. I am very happy with my super-Marines, tyvm.

Sorry, thought I added a bit at the end but had to edit my message. Was a bit too late.

I did add that i wish I could enjoy things like you, "just because".

Call me jealous


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ignatius wrote:
I think ya'll both show two extremes of the argument (I am healthily leaning towards swasakowey myself).

But the only thing we've seen in this thread to support the marines are:

Because GW says so.

And

Space ships.

That's essentially my point. Bias aside.

 Ignatius wrote:
I think ya'll both show two extremes of the argument (I am healthily leaning towards swasakowey myself).

But the only thing we've seen in this thread to support the marines are:

Because GW says so.

And

Space ships.

Or the whole point of, you know, using tech and materials we do not understand and may well be the god-material for all we know.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Because if GW says a squad can rampage across a planet until it simply surrenders, then it can.

No, it really can't. The only way to resolve this in any sensible way is to remember that part where GW explicitly says that 40k's stories are full of myths/exaggerations/long-forgotten history/etc. Stories of a squad of marines rampaging across a planet are best explained as in-universe propaganda about the Imperium's saints and martyrs. Just like you wouldn't take a story about Zeus smiting everything in his path (and then turning into an animal for some really kinky sex) literally you shouldn't take the absurd stories of space marines literally.

(Of course out-of-universe we know that the problem is just the writers having no sense of scale, so we could also just dismiss it as bad writing that shouldn't be canon.)

We have no idea of how these things really work, we do not know how impact-resilient Ceramite is, except by using the shown feats of Ceramite. Which are considerable.

Except we do know how durable ceramite is, relative to the weapons in its setting. We know that it provides pretty good protection against small arms (but not so good that marines never need to take cover against incoming fire), limited protection against medium-strength weapons like autocannons/heavy bolters/etc, and no protection against the heaviest weapons like a plasma cannon. From this we can conclude that a single marine squad would have no chance of taking an entire planet, since that planet would have thousands (or millions!) of marine-killing krak missiles for every marine, and even an incompetent conscript can press the "kill the space marine" button and let the guided missile do the rest.

Space Marines, to me, are one of the coolest parts of the entire setting. Normally you have sci-fi settings where big strong things are made redundant because of the ludicrous firepower available, but 40K's science fantasy blends sci-fi with classic themes like great monsters and mighty heroes laying waste to the battlefield. If you just want IGhammer 40K like it sounds, then why not just take one of the other sci-fi settings where everything dies like chumps instead of picking the one where Necrons, Ork monsters, Space Marines and Eldar (And so on) run across the battlefield and tank earth-shattering firepower, each in their own way, without breaking a sweat?

Except that's not what we see. In the real version of 40k we see that marines are fairly durable elite infantry, but still die like everyone else against the big guns. Power armor is a 3+ armor save, not a 2++ that can be re-rolled as many times as you want. Granted, the D6 system involves a degree of abstraction, but I don't find it very plausible that power armor is many orders of magnitude more durable than how it is portrayed in the games.

And really, why would you want a setting where marines were that powerful? Playing a video game in god mode gets boring very quickly, and that's what you'd have. It's hard to care about how "brave" the hero is when they're literally invulnerable to anything the enemy can throw at them and the only question in whether they will win is whether they have enough bullets to kill everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kestral wrote:
Could a squad of space marines (with a ship and some support) conquer earth today? Sure. Divide and conquer. Sow confusion and discord. Claim to be the salvation of the downtrodden. Get one group of natives beating on the other other, provide overwhelming force at the critical point in the conflict, install yourself as God-Kings. It's worked many times in the past.

That would be completely unfluffy for space marines. They aren't philosophers and leaders and manipulators, they're rabid attack dogs that the Imperium points at something that needs killing spectacularly and watches from a safe distance.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hate it.

It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.

Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.

Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.

I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.

Wat.

Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.

Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.

No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.

There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.

I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.

Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.

Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.

Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesnt need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart

Congratulations on knowing jack gak about Astartes. Astartes are posthuman monsters that can survive heavy bolter fire, autocannons, artillery, and even a Leman Russ Battlecannon without being even severely injured. They have milisecond to microsecond reaction times and can dodge projectile speeds up to the hypersonic. They're literal aimbots that can automatically snap shots off thanks to their autosenses that only miss when hit by immense shockwaves (such as a Strike Cruise going under reentry). Their basic firearm, the bolter, is capable of killing our APC's and helicopters, special ammunition would certainly kill modern armor, including Abrams. Their special and heavy weapons- lascannons, plasma guns, meltas, plasma cannons, etc would one-hit-kill all modern vehicles and CAS.

Also, you have to be really ignorant to think power armor impinges on movement or speed considering Astartes can run an average of something like forty or even fifty miles per hour. Space Marines don't sack planets because of orbital support. They sack planets because they're around street-level Marvel mutants.

Oh, and now it's quote time.

“That’s why we’re here. Mercutian is already dying, and the head wound Uzas is wearing doesn’t look like it’s left him all in one piece, either. His skull is bare to the bone, and we left one of his eyes back in the chamber where Third Claw died.’”
Pg.267 Void Stalker

Astartes survives having his head burned down to the skull and loses an eye, still alive despite the injuries.

“‘Sire, I believe we should save them for–’ The human said nothing more. The front of his face came free with a sickly crack, the flesh and jagged bone crunching in the Night Lord’s fist. Talos ignored the body as it toppled, spilling the insides of its halved skull onto the decking. No one had even seen him move, such was the prophet’s speed, clearing ten metres and vaulting a console table in the time it took a human heart to beat once.”
Pg.93 VS

Astartes runs around thirty feet, vaults a table, and rips the front of a man's face off in around 1.5 seconds.

”Ezrachi heard that he was so unrelenting on the battlefield that on the midnight plains of Menga-Dardra, a Black Legion Land Raider slammed into him with its dozer blade, ran him down and crushed him beneath its tracks, only for the mauled and buckled Skase to get back to his feet and rush back into the heart of the fighting.”
Pg.206 LotD

Astartes got ran over by a Land Raider, got back up when it passed over him and continued to fight.

“The full weight of the advancing Cholercaust was behind the thick metal, with row upon blood-crazed row charging forwards against each other and the Mausoleum door in an effort to earn the Blood God’s favour and end an Adeptus Astartes. The Scourge and Brother Novah continued in their desperate, marble-grazing efforts. Ishmael turned his unseeing eyes on his brothers. Novah was nearest, so Novah died first. Ishmael spun around and buried a crackling claw all the way up to the knuckle in the Fifth Company standard bearer. The standard itself jangled to the floor, and as Ishmael retracted his devastating talons, the butchered Excoriator followed it. Kersh immediately felt the effect on the door as hundreds of the Blood God’s servants lent their weight to an irresistible entrance.

Scrabbling beneath the warpstream, Skase joined his corpus-captain on the door. Launching their armoured frames at the adamantium alloy with renewed fervour, the Excoriators slammed it closed, shearing off the twitching limbs of slave-soldiers clawing their way through. As Skase held the great door closed, Kersh hauled at the pinion mechanism that drove a heavy adamantium bar across the portal and into the wall.”
Pg.717 LotD

Astartes overpower hundreds of men and slam a door shut with enough force to cut the limbs off those prying to get inside.

“But the rest of his retort was swallowed in a thunderous explosion as the tank outside fired its battle cannon into the derelict building. The blast pulverised a ten-metre-wide section of the building’s front entrance, showering the Astartes in a hail of jagged stone and metal.”
Pg.202 FA

Battlecannon blows apart a ten meter wide wall reinforced with metal (probably rebar). Becomes relevant below...

“Nemiel watched the Astartes race up to the street corner and put their backs to a burnt-out storefront, their bolters held across their chests. One of the two warriors – Brother Cortus, Nemiel thought – slid to the end of the wall and peered around the corner.
Nemiel heard the battle cannon fire and watched the corner of the building Coitus was standing at disintegrate in the space of a single heartbeat. The two Astartes disappeared in a blizzard of pulverised stone and fragments of structural steel. A billowing cloud of dust and smoke enveloped the intersection and rolled down the street towards the rest of the squad.
The squad took cover on reflex, crouching behind rubble piles or pressing close to a building wall. Nemiel checked his helmet display and saw the status icon for Brother Cortus flash from green to amber. He was wounded, perhaps seriously, but still functional. The walls of the building must have shielded the Astartes from the worst of the blast.
Less than a minute later Brother Yung emerged from the smoke cloud, his black armour caked with brown dust. He was half-carrying, half-dragging Brother Cortus. Nemiel rose from cover and jogged forward as Yung set the wounded warrior down next to the shattered stoop of a hab unit. Cortus reached up and fumbled with his helmet. One side of the ceramite helm had been partially crushed, shattering the right ocular and splitting it from crown to nape. Yung lent a hand and helped the wounded Astartes pull the helmet free.
‘Status?’ Nemiel asked.
Brother Cortus sent the smashed helmet bouncing across the street. The skin on the right side of his face had been deeply scored by the impact, peeling away the flesh down to the bone in some places. His right eye was a bloody ruin, but the wound was clotting quickly thanks to Cortus’s enhanced healing ability.
‘One battle tank and four APCs, three hundred metres south,’ he said, his voice rough with pain. ‘Approximately a platoon of infantry in hasty defensive positions, maybe more.’
‘I was talking about your head, brother.’
Cortus glanced dazedly at the Redemptor, blinking his one good eye. ‘Oh, that,’ he said dismissively. ‘It’s nothing. Did anyone see what happened to my bolter?’”
Pg.188 FA

Astartes survive the afromentioned battlecannon that destroyed afromentioned wall.

“The Librarian hurled himself to the side just as the creature lunged into the squad’s midst with the force of a runaway train.
With a shout, Zahariel spun to face the beast as the queen gathered herself together like a coiling spring and lashed out again, this time catching Gideon and two of the corpses in its wide mandibles. The curved pincers snapped shut like a giant scissors. The two corpses were bisected at once; Gideon’s armour resisted a half-second longer before giving way as well.

A bolt pistol barked; Gideon, lying in a pool of his own blood, had reloaded his weapon and was snapping careful shots at the worm’s eyes. Two burst apart in a shower of ichor, causing the queen to thrash and shriek in pain, but the wounds didn’t seem to slow the creature in the slightest.

‘What of Brother Gideon?’ Zahariel asked.
‘Comatose. His armour is keeping his vital signs stable enough that we should be able to get him back to Aldurukh.’”
Pgs.325-326 FA

Astartes can survive being cut in half. Albeit they do need a medivac.

“Kohl and Ephrial exchanged fire with them, dropping several with well-aimed shots. A burst of heavy bolter fire answered them, stitching the two Astartes with a stream of shells. Both warriors staggered beneath the hits, but their armour turned aside the blows.”
Pg.411 FA

Astartes tank heavy bolter shells.

“”Brother Vardus opened fire a second later, raking the rear Testudo with an extended burst of heavy bolter fire. The mass-reactive rounds exploded against the APC’s armoured hide and gouged craters in its solid tyres. Here and there the rounds found a seam in the armour plates and penetrated into the APC, wreaking bloody havoc on the men crammed within. The Testudo lurched to a stop, smoke pouring from the holes punched in its side.”
Pg.165 FA

Heavy bolters in the same novel are capable of killing an APC.

“They’d run for only a few hundred metres when just ahead they saw a platoon of skitarii jog into view, dragging four lascannons mounted on wheeled gun carriages. They saw the Astartes at almost the same instant; with three hundred metres between them, the enemy troops hurriedly dropped the trails on the four guns and began to frantically wheel them around to bear on the squad.
‘Charge!’ Nemiel cried, but the rest of squad hardly needed prompting. They broke into a full run, firing their bolters as they went.
Nemiel watched the mass-reactive shells strike the armoured splinter plates of the gun carriages and ricochet harmlessly away. The crews worked quickly and with remarkable precision, connecting the weapons to their power units and energising the guns in the space of seconds. If they had been preparing to fire on human troops, it might have been enough, but the Astartes reached the enemy with seconds to spare.
They leapt up and over the lascannons’ splinter shields and came down among the shocked gun crews. ”
Pg.470 FA

Astartes run a couple hundred meters in a handful of seconds.

“The strength in his arms built, the strength to shatter steel and buckle the hull of an armoured vehicle. He pictured exactly where his fists would strike.”
Pg.143 A Thousand Sons

Astartes fists can shatter steal and dent tanks.

” In the material realm, an Astartes could fight for weeks on end without rest…”
Pg.183 ATS

Astartes can fight for a week or more without REM sleep.

“He could hear Maion’s footsteps as he moved down the corridor; the other Flesh Tearer was halfway to the stairs, the fizz of the electrical cables as they spat in their death throes… and the shifting of metal – Harahel pivoted left as a grenade hit the ground. His ocular sensors dimmed, shielding his eyes from the piercing flash that flooded the chamber. With a dense clatter, a half-dozen of the ceiling grilles fell to the ground. A cluster of figures in sodden fatigues dropped down after them and opened fire. ‘Contact!’ Harahel shouted into the vox even as a hail of las-fire pattered off his armour.

Bathed in blood-spatter and faced with an opponent whose armour bore their comrade’s eviscerated innards, the traitors fell back. One held his ground, staring wide-eyed at Harahel as he pulled a clutch of grenades from a harness. Harahel decapitated the man as he advanced on the others. The grenades fell from the headless corpse’s fingers. A cloud of flame and shrapnel washed over Harahel’s battle-plate as they detonated. A slew of warnings lit up on the Flesh Tearer’s retinal display. Harahel blinked them away; his armour’s integrity was intact. Ahead of him, the traitors had rallied behind a pillar. He could see the fear on their gaunt faces as he emerged unscathed from the billowing fire.”
Pgs.7+9+10 H&B 15 – Beneath the Flesh

Grenades do nothing to power armor, and are not even considered threats.

“but stopped as weapons fire erupted from within. A noise like the birth of thunder filled the corridor as a heavy weapon roared. The sergeant jerked backwards as high-calibre rounds slammed into his armour, pitting the ceramite. His own shot went wide as a round clipped his gauntlet, the plasma blast scorching the ceiling. Barbelo dropped his chin and raised his shoulder as another torrent of rounds hammered him. Even as his pauldron cracked, the icon of the Chapter blasted from his shoulder in a shower of splintered ceramite, the sergeant took a step forward. Maion recognised the harsh bark of an autocannon as the traitors poured fire onto Barbelo – the sergeant’s armour would not hold. Maion lunged forward, tossed a frag grenade into the room, grabbed Barbelo’s gorget, and pulled him back into the corridor. ‘You dare!’ The sergeant snarled at Maion, back-fisting him across the helm. Maion staggered cursing. With disciplined restraint he quashed the rage boiling up inside him. ‘Calm yourself brother. To proceed would have been folly.’”
Pg.12 H&B 15 – Beneath the Flesh

Astartes tanks autocannon fire with no real danger to himself.

“‘Micos?’ Nisroc’s vox went unanswered. He turned to the other Flesh Tearer. ‘I am fine, Apothecary,’ Micos snarled, throwing his ruined helmet across the chamber. ‘A flesh wound. ’ The Apothecary cast his gaze over Micos. A blackened hole sat where his right eye should have been and his face was a mess of dark scabs. ‘As you say, brother.’”
Pg.17-18 H&B 15 – Beneath the Flesh

Missing an eye and having your face torn up is merely a flesh wound to an Astartes.

“With a small movement, the warrior raised the barrel of his bolter and shot the Governor at point-blank range, blasting his body apart.”
Pg.600 Nemesis

Bolters blow humanoids apart.

Amaru sprinted from the corridor firing, Maion close behind him. ‘Fall back to the missile silo.’ The Techmarine dropped to one knee to avoid a plasma round, the arms of his servo-harness whirring as they turned to return fire. The Chaos plasma gunner died in a heartbeat, dissected by the merciless cutting lasers.”
Pgs.11-12+16 H&B 16

Techmarine dodges a plasma short, which is either high supersonic or hypersonic, as plasma is mentioned previously in the novel to travel faster than a bolt.

“A figure advanced from the doorway, his armoured back filling the viewer. The Guardsmen opened fire. Untroubled, the attacker fired back. The unmistakable muzzle flash of a boltgun illuminated the Angorians as they flipped backwards, torn apart by the mass-reactive rounds.”
Pg.21 H&B 16

Lasgun fire doesn't really do anything to power armor.

“wakefulness. His cheek was wet, and he could feel fluid pooling. Rafen blinked, scanning the visible glyphs across the line of his field of vision. His helmet had been damaged, along with some of the actuators in his legs, but the cowl of ceramite and steel that surrounded him had taken the brunt of the crash. He took stock of himself, feeling for injuries. Some minor breaks in his bones, contusions and the like, things that would have been deadly to a common human but little more than an irritant to a Space Marine.”
Pg.223 H&B 16 – Redeemed

Astartes falls several kilometers down an elevator shaft, is largely unharmed.

“The captain had no time to react – a blur of dark grey shoved her aside. Before she’d even blinked, Arvas was kicking and dangling above the ground, held aloft by Argel Tal’s fist around his throat. ”
Pg.420 FTH

In around 350 milliseconds, Tal shoves aside a woman, charges forward, and grabs Arvas.

“The Hall of Tra was cold and lightless. His wolf-eye caught the ghost radiation of barely smouldering firepits. In terms of heat and light, the Wolves were making no allowances for human tolerances of comfort. They had given him a pelt and an eye to see through the dark with. What more could he want?
He realised he wasn’t alone. The company was all around him. Their body heat was barely detectable, dimmer than the dull firepits. The Hall was a massive natural cavern, ragged and irregular, and the Astartes were ranged around it, huddled and coiled in their furs, as immobile as a sibling pack of predators, gone to ground overnight, dormant and pressed close for warmth.

The Upplander’s breath was steaming the frigid air, but barely a curl escaped Ogvai’s mouth alongside his words. Astartes biology was marvellously adapted for heat retention.”
Pg.107 Prospero Burns

Astartes biology masks their body temperature to appear dimmer than warmed coals.

“In a heartbeat that vision changed from a place of wonder to a place of death. The first enemy artillery shells screamed down and exploded above the plateau in a storm of deafening horror. Air-bursting warheads flensed the ground with a hellstorm of red-hot steel fragments; some no larger than a fingernail, others like scything axe-heads, and the carnage Honsou saw a man shredded to the bone, his skeleton pulped to a rubbery mass a second later by the pounding shockwave of detonation. A group of near-naked slaves with heavy picks slung over their shoulders vanished in a fiery mass of swirling fragments, their remains no longer recognisable as human. Hundreds died in the first instants of the barrage, and a hundred more in the rippling firestorm that followed. Honsou heard their screams, but paid them no mind.

Something struck the side of Honsou’s helmet like the thunder hammer of a Dreadnought and he was sent flying. A body flashed past him, and he braced for impact as the clashing, intersecting waves of force flung him about like a leaf in a storm. He hit the ground hard and skidded across the cratered rubble of the plateau. After a quick check to make sure he still had all his limbs, Honsou pushed himself to his knees with his entrenching tool. The sky rippled with orange and red streamers of arcing shells and fiery detonations, but it felt distant and somehow unreal. The smell of cooking meat came to him, and Honsou looked down to see a long shard of shell casing jutting from the centre of his breastplate. The metal sizzled, and it was still possible to make out a white eagle and read the stencilled lettering on its side. He grunted and pulled the fragment from his body. Its tip was sharpened to a dagger point, the last ten centimetres coated in blood. ‘You don’t get me that easy,’ he snarled, standing calmly in the midst of the barrage.”
Pg.36 H&B 17

Astartes hit by artillery shell, survives with minimal injuries.

“Space Marine armour was an insulated exterior of ceramite and adamantium, almost invisible to thermal or heat detection.” / Blood Gorgons, p.41 - **

Power armor is almost invisible to infrared, good luck using heat guided rounds.


More later if needed. But I think you get the point that Space Marines are posthuman glorious abominations that are around street level in Marvel, and they're a bloody army.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Because if GW says a squad can rampage across a planet until it simply surrenders, then it can.

No, it really can't. The only way to resolve this in any sensible way is to remember that part where GW explicitly says that 40k's stories are full of myths/exaggerations/long-forgotten history/etc. Stories of a squad of marines rampaging across a planet are best explained as in-universe propaganda about the Imperium's saints and martyrs. Just like you wouldn't take a story about Zeus smiting everything in his path (and then turning into an animal for some really kinky sex) literally you shouldn't take the absurd stories of space marines literally.

(Of course out-of-universe we know that the problem is just the writers having no sense of scale, so we could also just dismiss it as bad writing that shouldn't be canon.)

We have no idea of how these things really work, we do not know how impact-resilient Ceramite is, except by using the shown feats of Ceramite. Which are considerable.

Except we do know how durable ceramite is, relative to the weapons in its setting. We know that it provides pretty good protection against small arms (but not so good that marines never need to take cover against incoming fire), limited protection against medium-strength weapons like autocannons/heavy bolters/etc, and no protection against the heaviest weapons like a plasma cannon. From this we can conclude that a single marine squad would have no chance of taking an entire planet, since that planet would have thousands (or millions!) of marine-killing krak missiles for every marine, and even an incompetent conscript can press the "kill the space marine" button and let the guided missile do the rest.

Space Marines, to me, are one of the coolest parts of the entire setting. Normally you have sci-fi settings where big strong things are made redundant because of the ludicrous firepower available, but 40K's science fantasy blends sci-fi with classic themes like great monsters and mighty heroes laying waste to the battlefield. If you just want IGhammer 40K like it sounds, then why not just take one of the other sci-fi settings where everything dies like chumps instead of picking the one where Necrons, Ork monsters, Space Marines and Eldar (And so on) run across the battlefield and tank earth-shattering firepower, each in their own way, without breaking a sweat?

Except that's not what we see. In the real version of 40k we see that marines are fairly durable elite infantry, but still die like everyone else against the big guns. Power armor is a 3+ armor save, not a 2++ that can be re-rolled as many times as you want. Granted, the D6 system involves a degree of abstraction, but I don't find it very plausible that power armor is many orders of magnitude more durable than how it is portrayed in the games.

And really, why would you want a setting where marines were that powerful? Playing a video game in god mode gets boring very quickly, and that's what you'd have. It's hard to care about how "brave" the hero is when they're literally invulnerable to anything the enemy can throw at them and the only question in whether they will win is whether they have enough bullets to kill everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kestral wrote:
Could a squad of space marines (with a ship and some support) conquer earth today? Sure. Divide and conquer. Sow confusion and discord. Claim to be the salvation of the downtrodden. Get one group of natives beating on the other other, provide overwhelming force at the critical point in the conflict, install yourself as God-Kings. It's worked many times in the past.

That would be completely unfluffy for space marines. They aren't philosophers and leaders and manipulators, they're rabid attack dogs that the Imperium points at something that needs killing spectacularly and watches from a safe distance.

I do not argue game mechanics. Game mechanics are game mechanics, fluff is fluff. It is in GWs financial interest to not make SM too strong on the tabletop, because then everyone would just buy a few of them and get a cheap army of decent points.

As for the toughness of PA, do I need to bring up examples of Marines literally shrugging off clusters of frag grenades or (My favourite quote) of how a squad of CSM basically beats up a company of IG like it was a hobby to them, whipping them to death with their own tank treads etc.

You call it absurd, I call it thematic. 40K does not have to share the values modern day Earth does.

As for the most interesting of your questions, why this is so strong Marines interesting?

Space Marines bite hard, yes, but the setting bites back! Your SM squad may carve their way through a company without as much as taking damage, but there's billions of guardsmen for each Marine. Eldar and Necrons can arguably match Marines in sheer battle prowess, as can Tyranids. Orks bring numbers and toughness, and so on. I consider the idea of Marines being as weak as you imply implausible; the only way a million Marines can be seen as a faction in their own right next to the others is if they bring such truly ludicrous force concentration that most other forces just crumble. The fact that SM are so strong but still are too few to stop the descent of the Imperium only adds to the grimdark. YMMV.

Wyzila:

Its all tastless bad writing.

Find me an example in nature where a creature the size of walking cattle can move fast enough to dodge hypersonic projectiles? Its physically impossible.

That there is enough of a reason why Space Marines are just stupidly plot armoured with little thought put behind them.

Quote bad writing all you want, but quoting that writing is the equivalent of 2 children arguing over whose imaginary creature is better.

"My monster can move the speed of light!"

"Oh yea? Mine can move the speed of light AND has bullets faster than the speed of light!"

See how terrible GW writing can be for Space Marines (the worst offenders)?

Im not gonna argue with GW fluff (remember, this is the company that wrote in the 5th edition codex that there was an imperial AAA unit that had a kill to death ratio of 999,999,999 to 1 or something equally stupid). So I wont bother arguing because you clearly are using the equivalent of propaganda to justify more propaganda.

kestral wrote:
Earth's history is full of tiny forces conquering entire nations given a technological advantage, some luck, a bit of ruthlessness and a weakened target. The most classic example is the Spanish and the Aztecs of course, but there are many more.

That example is irrelevant due to the fact that smallpox killed the Aztecs and their rivals not the Spanish. 300 conquistadors alone with the never-commanded-anything-in-battle-before Hernan Cortes would have their butts handed to them.

Could a squad of space marines personally conquer earth if humanity was united against them and willing to die to dive them off? No. In game terms they're barely equal to 100 mook humans. Fluff is kinder to them, but even then it seems beyond reasonable. They might kill a great many leaders, but all that would do would give the problem of having no one who could surrender to them.

To assume that we wouldn't be able to safely guard our top leaders from surgical strikes seems a bit off. After the fourth time the marines come crashing through a bunker with a metal sky torpedo full of marines we would widen up to it and find a way to combat its effectiveness.

Could a squad of space marines (with a ship and some support) conquer earth today? Sure. Divide and conquer. Sow confusion and discord. Claim to be the salvation of the downtrodden. Get one group of natives beating on the other other, provide overwhelming force at the critical point in the conflict, install yourself as God-Kings. It's worked many times in the past.

I like to think that we aren't that stupid. But I could be completely wrong.

But Wyzilla, those untold dozens of quotes are clearly just outliers. /sarcasm

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Because if GW says a squad can rampage across a planet until it simply surrenders, then it can.

No, it really can't. The only way to resolve this in any sensible way is to remember that part where GW explicitly says that 40k's stories are full of myths/exaggerations/long-forgotten history/etc. Stories of a squad of marines rampaging across a planet are best explained as in-universe propaganda about the Imperium's saints and martyrs. Just like you wouldn't take a story about Zeus smiting everything in his path (and then turning into an animal for some really kinky sex) literally you shouldn't take the absurd stories of space marines literally.

(Of course out-of-universe we know that the problem is just the writers having no sense of scale, so we could also just dismiss it as bad writing that shouldn't be canon.)

We have no idea of how these things really work, we do not know how impact-resilient Ceramite is, except by using the shown feats of Ceramite. Which are considerable.

Except we do know how durable ceramite is, relative to the weapons in its setting. We know that it provides pretty good protection against small arms (but not so good that marines never need to take cover against incoming fire), limited protection against medium-strength weapons like autocannons/heavy bolters/etc, and no protection against the heaviest weapons like a plasma cannon. From this we can conclude that a single marine squad would have no chance of taking an entire planet, since that planet would have thousands (or millions!) of marine-killing krak missiles for every marine, and even an incompetent conscript can press the "kill the space marine" button and let the guided missile do the rest.

Space Marines, to me, are one of the coolest parts of the entire setting. Normally you have sci-fi settings where big strong things are made redundant because of the ludicrous firepower available, but 40K's science fantasy blends sci-fi with classic themes like great monsters and mighty heroes laying waste to the battlefield. If you just want IGhammer 40K like it sounds, then why not just take one of the other sci-fi settings where everything dies like chumps instead of picking the one where Necrons, Ork monsters, Space Marines and Eldar (And so on) run across the battlefield and tank earth-shattering firepower, each in their own way, without breaking a sweat?

Except that's not what we see. In the real version of 40k we see that marines are fairly durable elite infantry, but still die like everyone else against the big guns. Power armor is a 3+ armor save, not a 2++ that can be re-rolled as many times as you want. Granted, the D6 system involves a degree of abstraction, but I don't find it very plausible that power armor is many orders of magnitude more durable than how it is portrayed in the games.

And really, why would you want a setting where marines were that powerful? Playing a video game in god mode gets boring very quickly, and that's what you'd have. It's hard to care about how "brave" the hero is when they're literally invulnerable to anything the enemy can throw at them and the only question in whether they will win is whether they have enough bullets to kill everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kestral wrote:
Could a squad of space marines (with a ship and some support) conquer earth today? Sure. Divide and conquer. Sow confusion and discord. Claim to be the salvation of the downtrodden. Get one group of natives beating on the other other, provide overwhelming force at the critical point in the conflict, install yourself as God-Kings. It's worked many times in the past.

That would be completely unfluffy for space marines. They aren't philosophers and leaders and manipulators, they're rabid attack dogs that the Imperium points at something that needs killing spectacularly and watches from a safe distance.

The TT rules are simply game mechanics, they are what not should be taken literally given the absolute insanity that can happen in the TT that you are unlikely to even find in the fluff or the sheer idiocy of how some things are classed and restricted by the D6. There's no reason to believe why the fluff isn't literal and propaganda instead, because some parts of the fluff are unknowable in universe that would result either in the Dark Angels killing you, the Inquisition popping your head, or horrible horrible things happening to you when Daemons tear a hole into reality and rend your soul. The only actual reason behind you argument is whining over how you don't like the fluff, but what you propose is simply head-canon, IE, not actually true and something that isn't material licensed by GW with their stamp of approval or produced directly by them.

And Astartes aren't invulnerable. The main story of W40K is the Horus Heresy, which is effectively the War in Heaven 2.0 and continues to be waged in m41. It's a conflict between the gods and demigods, if a guardsmen actually manages to do something impressive it simply increases the glory for the IG of being able to do something besides die. Plus it exemplifies the nihilism of 40K.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Wyzila:

Its all tastless bad writing.

Find me an example in nature where a creature the size of walking cattle can move fast enough to dodge hypersonic projectiles? Its physically impossible.

That there is enough of a reason why Space Marines are just stupidly plot armoured with little thought put behind them.

Quote bad writing all you want, but quoting that writing is the equivalent of 2 children arguing over whose imaginary creature is better.

"My monster can move the speed of light!"

"Oh yea? Mine can move the speed of light AND has bullets faster than the speed of light!"

See how terrible GW writing can be for Space Marines (the worst offenders)?

Im not gonna argue with GW fluff (remember, this is the company that wrote in the 5th edition codex that there was an imperial AAA unit that had a kill to death ratio of 999,999,999 to 1 or something equally stupid). So I wont bother arguing because you clearly are using the equivalent of propaganda to justify more propaganda.

Wait, you are saying GW fluff is not worth using?

What the actual hell, you say we are just going to argue fanfiction?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Wyzila:

Its all tastless bad writing.

Find me an example in nature where a creature the size of walking cattle can move fast enough to dodge hypersonic projectiles? Its physically impossible.

That there is enough of a reason why Space Marines are just stupidly plot armoured with little thought put behind them.

Quote bad writing all you want, but quoting that writing is the equivalent of 2 children arguing over whose imaginary creature is better.

"My monster can move the speed of light!"

"Oh yea? Mine can move the speed of light AND has bullets faster than the speed of light!"

See how terrible GW writing can be for Space Marines (the worst offenders)?

Im not gonna argue with GW fluff (remember, this is the company that wrote in the 5th edition codex that there was an imperial AAA unit that had a kill to death ratio of 999,999,999 to 1 or something equally stupid). So I wont bother arguing because you clearly are using the equivalent of propaganda to justify more propaganda.

Wait, you are saying GW fluff is not worth using?

What the actual hell, you say we are just going to argue fanfiction?

I guess in a way yes. I think its good to use the ideas in the fluff, but in no way is it good to think the fluff is accurate as written. For the same reasons preregrine mentioned.