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 Yonan wrote:
Slightly more elaborate solution: Don't buy them anymore, and complain online so other people know not to buy them too.

Doesn't change the fact that you may have spend money on a bad or unplayable army . Complaining does give back money.

It's actually funny, on my FLGS' Facebook group one of the longtime Ork players posted a rant about all the stuff GW messed up with the Codex, and someone had the gall to just say "Think of it as a book that was $100 instead of $50" referring to the supplement.

I really can't believe how some people will defend this kind of nonsense. They deliberately print out a crap Codex to get you to buy the supplement/dataslates/etc. down the road. People constantly wonder why almost every thread turns into an anti-GW discussion. Things like this is why, because ultimately it boils down to the fact everything bad goes back to GW is a pathetic company.

WayneTheGame wrote:
It's actually funny, on my FLGS' Facebook group one of the longtime Ork players posted a rant about all the stuff GW messed up with the Codex, and someone had the gall to just say "Think of it as a book that was $100 instead of $50" referring to the supplement.

I really can't believe how some people will defend this kind of nonsense. They deliberately print out a crap Codex to get you to buy the supplement/dataslates/etc. down the road. People constantly wonder why almost every thread turns into an anti-GW discussion. Things like this is why, because ultimately it boils down to the fact everything bad goes back to GW is a pathetic company.

What was left out of the ork codex that will be included in the supplement? I'm an outsider I have no idea how the ork codex worked/works.

KommissarKarl wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
It's actually funny, on my FLGS' Facebook group one of the longtime Ork players posted a rant about all the stuff GW messed up with the Codex, and someone had the gall to just say "Think of it as a book that was $100 instead of $50" referring to the supplement.

I really can't believe how some people will defend this kind of nonsense. They deliberately print out a crap Codex to get you to buy the supplement/dataslates/etc. down the road. People constantly wonder why almost every thread turns into an anti-GW discussion. Things like this is why, because ultimately it boils down to the fact everything bad goes back to GW is a pathetic company.

What was left out of the ork codex that will be included in the supplement? I'm an outsider I have no idea how the ork codex worked/works.

Nobody knows, that's the thing; I don't know if the supplement is going to include extras, or be just like "Nobz are Troops", or what. But it's a good way to con people into buying the supplement. Maybe it fixes your Codex, maybe it doesn't. Spend $50 to find out what's behind Door #1...

WayneTheGame wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
It's actually funny, on my FLGS' Facebook group one of the longtime Ork players posted a rant about all the stuff GW messed up with the Codex, and someone had the gall to just say "Think of it as a book that was $100 instead of $50" referring to the supplement.

I really can't believe how some people will defend this kind of nonsense. They deliberately print out a crap Codex to get you to buy the supplement/dataslates/etc. down the road. People constantly wonder why almost every thread turns into an anti-GW discussion. Things like this is why, because ultimately it boils down to the fact everything bad goes back to GW is a pathetic company.

What was left out of the ork codex that will be included in the supplement? I'm an outsider I have no idea how the ork codex worked/works.

Nobody knows, that's the thing. But it's a good way to con people into buying the supplement. Maybe it fixes your Codex, maybe it doesn't. Spend $50 to find out what's behind Door #1...

So you're complaining about something being cut from your codex...you just don't know what that is?

KommissarKarl wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
It's actually funny, on my FLGS' Facebook group one of the longtime Ork players posted a rant about all the stuff GW messed up with the Codex, and someone had the gall to just say "Think of it as a book that was $100 instead of $50" referring to the supplement.

I really can't believe how some people will defend this kind of nonsense. They deliberately print out a crap Codex to get you to buy the supplement/dataslates/etc. down the road. People constantly wonder why almost every thread turns into an anti-GW discussion. Things like this is why, because ultimately it boils down to the fact everything bad goes back to GW is a pathetic company.

What was left out of the ork codex that will be included in the supplement? I'm an outsider I have no idea how the ork codex worked/works.

Nobody knows, that's the thing. But it's a good way to con people into buying the supplement. Maybe it fixes your Codex, maybe it doesn't. Spend $50 to find out what's behind Door #1...

So you're complaining about something being cut from your codex...you just don't know what that is?

I'm not, an Ork player at my FLGS was but he didn't go into detail on what, and some GWombie said just buy the supplement like a good sheep as the answer.

The only thing we know that was cut from the codex for separate release was the looted wagon, and there's no disputing it. It was in the previous 'dex, it's not in the current 'dex. To get it, you pay extra to buy a white dwarf, released at same time as 'dex.

 Yonan wrote:
The only thing we know that was cut from the codex for separate release was the looted wagon, and there's no disputing it. It was in the previous 'dex, it's not in the current 'dex. To get it, you pay extra to buy a white dwarf, released at same time as 'dex.

...And the reason it's in white dwarf was because the fanbase wanted it back. You can complain about GW listening to the fanbase if you want but at least acknowledge that's what you're doing.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I'm not, an Ork player at my FLGS was but he didn't go into detail on what, and some GWombie said just buy the supplement like a good sheep as the answer.

Hehe, GWombie. I need to use that some time. Those kind of people who just tell you to suck it up and buy more seriously hamper my enjoyment of the Hobby.


(Just to clarify I'm not saying people defending GW are bad, just that there is this one guy like that who runs the only local gaming club so now I have to play at a friends home or go for a 40 minute drive.)

WayneTheGame wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
It's actually funny, on my FLGS' Facebook group one of the longtime Ork players posted a rant about all the stuff GW messed up with the Codex, and someone had the gall to just say "Think of it as a book that was $100 instead of $50" referring to the supplement.

I really can't believe how some people will defend this kind of nonsense. They deliberately print out a crap Codex to get you to buy the supplement/dataslates/etc. down the road. People constantly wonder why almost every thread turns into an anti-GW discussion. Things like this is why, because ultimately it boils down to the fact everything bad goes back to GW is a pathetic company.

What was left out of the ork codex that will be included in the supplement? I'm an outsider I have no idea how the ork codex worked/works.

Nobody knows, that's the thing; I don't know if the supplement is going to include extras, or be just like "Nobz are Troops", or what. But it's a good way to con people into buying the supplement. Maybe it fixes your Codex, maybe it doesn't. Spend $50 to find out what's behind Door #1...

Actually people who bought the big box know, since it included the supplement.

 jonolikespie wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I'm not, an Ork player at my FLGS was but he didn't go into detail on what, and some GWombie said just buy the supplement like a good sheep as the answer.

Hehe, GWombie. I need to use that some time. Those kind of people who just tell you to suck it up and buy more seriously hamper my enjoyment of the Hobby.


(Just to clarify I'm not saying people defending GW are bad, just that there is this one guy like that who runs the only local gaming club so now I have to play at a friends home or go for a 40 minute drive.)

I cannot take credit for it, I think someone on Warseer used it in reply to my asking why people still gush over 40k releases, and it stuck But yeah, his answer to the FB post ranting about how the guy is almost ready to quit because GW has fethed up the Ork codex was "Just think of it as a book that costs $100 instead of $50".

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
The only thing we know that was cut from the codex for separate release was the looted wagon, and there's no disputing it. It was in the previous 'dex, it's not in the current 'dex. To get it, you pay extra to buy a white dwarf, released at same time as 'dex.

...And the reason it's in white dwarf was because the fanbase wanted it back. You can complain about GW listening to the fanbase if you want but at least acknowledge that's what you're doing.

I keep hearing this, where exactly does it come from? The White Dwarf it was in was printed months before we actually heard that it wouldn't be in the dex wasn't it?

 jonolikespie wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
The only thing we know that was cut from the codex for separate release was the looted wagon, and there's no disputing it. It was in the previous 'dex, it's not in the current 'dex. To get it, you pay extra to buy a white dwarf, released at same time as 'dex.

...And the reason it's in white dwarf was because the fanbase wanted it back. You can complain about GW listening to the fanbase if you want but at least acknowledge that's what you're doing.

I keep hearing this, where exactly does it come from? The White Dwarf it was in was printed months before we actually heard that it wouldn't be in the dex wasn't it?

I love arguments like that, though. GW took it away and gave it back, they're awesome! Uhh... how about they not take it away in the first place because they're babies?

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
The only thing we know that was cut from the codex for separate release was the looted wagon, and there's no disputing it. It was in the previous 'dex, it's not in the current 'dex. To get it, you pay extra to buy a white dwarf, released at same time as 'dex.

...And the reason it's in white dwarf was because the fanbase wanted it back. You can complain about GW listening to the fanbase if you want but at least acknowledge that's what you're doing.

If that was the reason, then they could have just made the rules available as a free downloadable PDF. Especially because if it was just thrown into WD as a last minute thing to please the Ork players, then that means it is just a copy paste from the previous codex entry with absolutely no more work put into it...

The way that it was made was as an incentive to get more people to buy WD, so no, they aren't listening to the fanbase.

Another thread full of entitled Ork players crying? Stop being so damn whiny.

That sort of comment is counter-productive. Please refrain from making them in future.

PapaSoul wrote:
Another thread full of entitled Ork players crying? Stop being so damn whiny.

Oh good, what a constructive, useful thing to post.

Maybe next time you can tell us how to post better and remain on topic?

Anyways, I'm highly doubtful that the reason the Looted Wagon appeared in WD was due to the player base reaction.

We want *new* rules in White Dwarf. Not rules cut from a codex for whatever reason. There is no way in hell this was "for the players".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:
Another thread full of entitled Ork players crying? Stop being so damn whiny.

This. I can see where hes coming from though regardless of intellectual input i feel there are too many ork comlaint threads, hopefully after this week it is water under the bridge and we can complain about sone thing else.

Also why not homebrew? When sisters player feel that they get rhe short end of the stick (i dont play sisters so i dont know if they are really good or not) they home brew the everliving piss out of anything they can get their hands on.
Honestly i wish IG had a supplement and the Orc dex could use its old force org stuff. Sm get it why not orcs?

Papa Soul's comment was already addressed by Kilkrazy above, so if we could move back to discussing the topic (supplements being released separately from a codex) that'd be great.

Thanks!

I'm kind of annoyed by the "play Unbound' advice to Biker/Dread/Nob based army players:

When Unbound allows you to play armies you never were able to play before, that's a tip of the hat to Unbound.

When the rules remove the option for you to field the army that you had been able to field, then 'restore' it somewhere else, that has separate limitations, that's not an improvement.

If I could buy my a beer with my meal, and then was told that I'd have to purchase the beer at a separate counter, but that counter also sold all sorts of other stuff (which I didn't want), I didn't get an improved dining experience.

Some tournaments and organized gaming events don't allow Unbound. Unbound removes the benefits you receive from taking a Battleforged army. Unbound also 'unlocks' (for both players) more powerful units (which means that taking an Unbound army just to expand your options is handicapping you against another Unbound army which uses that choice to take the most powerful units from several Codexes).

However, the biggest irritation about it is that removing a pre-existing option (which was maintained in other armies when they received a new book, seems petty and ungenerous.

Da Butcha wrote:

However, the biggest irritation about it is that removing a pre-existing option (which was maintained in other armies when they received a new book, seems petty and ungenerous.

+1.

I'd say all the 'codex whiners' actually do have a valid point. A player has invested quite a lot of cash in the existing product and building an army of that faction, and now, rather harshly, you suddenly need to pay for a new codex / rule book to be able to use those products. When the required new book is expensive, I can see the reason for an outcry - especially if you feel that the book doesn't offer you much value, or if there's a money grab by splitting the book in two expensive parts.

It's not as simple as to just "not buy it" - if you don't, you invalidate your model collection, and that's a bit of a problem.

Hopefully the numbers show GW hat we want. I've bought 3 each of SM Strike Forces and Strike Force Ultras this year but none of their books since SM which is actually decent and none of the new ridiculously priced models.

KommissarKarl wrote:

So you're complaining about something being cut from your codex...you just don't know what that is?

If you look at my original post you can see a (not complete list) of things that have been cut. FOC swaps for the most part, which lead to the ability to create a fun and themed army.

Taking bikes as Troops, taking Dreadnoughts as Troops, taking Nobs as Troops. Now you get none of that. If you had an army of 40 bikes (Something I know a few people in my area had) you now CANNOT legally play it. If you want to play your Orks AT ALL you have to buy two units of Boyz on foot. Which totally ruins all your hard work, the theme and the look of your army.

Same with the nobs and the Dreads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's getting ridiculous. I haven't bought anything other than the Sisters codex and the Eldar codex (no models, or anything) for the passed 4 YEARS to make a half-assed protest attempt against the company.

Uh you can still play an army of 40 bikes.
Warbiker units can be up to 15 models strong.
Nobs can be a 10 man unit at maximum and the entire mob can take warbikes.

Boyz can buy Trukks so I don't know why you are saying the Boyz need to be on foot...

WayneTheGame wrote:
I love arguments like that, though. GW took it away and gave it back, they're awesome! Uhh... how about they not take it away in the first place because they're babies?

Also, they didn't take it away and then give it back.

They took it away and then *sold* it back.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
So, here's what I'm betting, Ghaz's supplement allows Nobs as Troops. There will be a Kult of Speed Supplement that allows bikes as Troops. There will be a Mek Supplement that allows you to make Kans and Deff Dreads Troops.

No such thing in the Ghaz book. It gives you one more Elites slot if you use the Great Waagh! Detachment, but that's it.

Want a bunch of Dreads? They'll point you to the Dread Mob in the Ghaz book. It's 3 Dreads, 3 units of Kans (3+ per mob), 2 Orkanauts, a Big Mek, and a Painboy, all taking up zero FOC slots.

Kult of Speed might make Bikes Troops, but that's down the line.

What they want you to do, and they said it straight up in White Dwarf, is use Unbound. You don't get detachment or formation bonuses, but you can use whatever units you like. Yeah, that doesn't work for tournaments, or for games with strangers who don't trust you not to cave their face in. But if you're not playing in a tournament, just tell the guy you're playing, "Look, I want to do a Speed Freaks list, but I have to do it Unbound. Are you cool with that?" When I tell people something like that, they're fine with it.

It is kind of sad, though, that people hate Ork Boyz so much that they don't want to take them at all, even a minimum number. Technically, you can do a Battle-Forged Speed Freaks army by just filling your minimum Troops with Boyz in Trukks, and then double up the detachments.

 ErikSetzer wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:
So, here's what I'm betting, Ghaz's supplement allows Nobs as Troops. There will be a Kult of Speed Supplement that allows bikes as Troops. There will be a Mek Supplement that allows you to make Kans and Deff Dreads Troops.

No such thing in the Ghaz book. It gives you one more Elites slot if you use the Great Waagh! Detachment, but that's it.

Want a bunch of Dreads? They'll point you to the Dread Mob in the Ghaz book. It's 3 Dreads, 3 units of Kans (3+ per mob), 2 Orkanauts, a Big Mek, and a Painboy, all taking up zero FOC slots.

Kult of Speed might make Bikes Troops, but that's down the line.

What they want you to do, and they said it straight up in White Dwarf, is use Unbound. You don't get detachment or formation bonuses, but you can use whatever units you like. Yeah, that doesn't work for tournaments, or for games with strangers who don't trust you not to cave their face in. But if you're not playing in a tournament, just tell the guy you're playing, "Look, I want to do a Speed Freaks list, but I have to do it Unbound. Are you cool with that?" When I tell people something like that, they're fine with it.

It is kind of sad, though, that people hate Ork Boyz so much that they don't want to take them at all, even a minimum number. Technically, you can do a Battle-Forged Speed Freaks army by just filling your minimum Troops with Boyz in Trukks, and then double up the detachments.

Then the Ghaz supplement is even worse than I feared.

Yeah, you could but boyz in trukks, that might be fine if you're building an army fresh. What about someone who's had the army for a decade who now has to buy two trukks and two mobs of boyz just to stay legal? Or someone who did the same with Deff Dreads. I suppose with the dredds you can use the forge world book (Which is actually still pretty fun)

You shouldn't have to ask permission to use your army that used to be legal 7 days ago.
7th was a fairly big change but it wasn't what the change from 2nd to 3rd was like. A change so big it invalidated everything (For the better ultimately - for a while at least)

Maybe I'm giving GW too much credit in the evil department. Maybe they're just so out of touch with what the player base wants and needs that they think this is a good thing.
Maybe they're actually surprised that people are mad that they lost most of their options. Maybe they're not evil, maybe they're dumb/incompetent.

Losing choices, losing options is never a good thing and should never happen (in a significant way anyway - some things may get changed around or whatever - I get that) when a new dex is released.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Uh you can still play an army of 40 bikes.
Warbiker units can be up to 15 models strong.
Nobs can be a 10 man unit at maximum and the entire mob can take warbikes.

Boyz can buy Trukks so I don't know why you are saying the Boyz need to be on foot...

So.... you still failed to answer my question. Despite it being asked directly.

Bikes as TROOPS. TROOPS with Objective secured (A vital rule for tournys and casual play alike) Are boyz bikes? Nope.
Deff Dreads as TROOPS. Same as above. Nope
Nobs as TROOPS. See above and two above. NOPE.

So I'm assuming if they came out with a new Marine Dex and took away bikes as TROOPS options for White Scars and/or Dark angels you'd just say. "Get marines in Rhinos" and ignore the point people are making? What about for Eldar? Same thing. Bikes as TROOPS. Objective secured is one of the most important rules in 7th. And Orks lost 4 methods of getting it.

Things like this aren't out of the ordinary.

Me: "I'd like to pick up my pre-order of Mass Effect 3, please."
Clerk: "Sure thing, did you wanna go ahead and pick up the DLC for that as well? It's only $9.99."


Because that makes sense.

I'm confused as to how much we 'lost.' Two special characters, right? And Looted Wagons will be fading into obscurity, so three things.
Yeah, certain options can't be troops. So? Everyone scores in 7th edition, we have unlimited FOCs, or we can play FOCless and do whatever we want. Shuffling options to troops no longer means much, other than giving a reroll on Warlord Traits and some other small buff.