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So, here's the main thing I noticed about the new Ork codex. (Other than it seemed to be designed by a non-ork gamer and it was stuffed with filler, but that's another story)

Most of the army options from the old book were gone. Warbosses no longer make a single mob of Nobs Troops, Big Meks no longer make a Single Deff Dread a Troop, Wazdakka is gone, so no Bikes as Troops. You get Boyz and Gretchin. That's it. All the fun options were gone, all the characterful stuff was out.

So, here's my hypothesis; Day one DLC - ala Ubisoft and EA. They had all those options in there and then someone down the line realized something;

'Why should we do that? This is a corporation. We have to make money! Why release one Codex with all the options? Then we'll only get 50 dollars from the player. Why not pull out those options and then print out new Supplements that allow them to do that?'

So, here's what I'm betting, Ghaz's supplement allows Nobs as Troops. There will be a Kult of Speed Supplement that allows bikes as Troops. There will be a Mek Supplement that allows you to make Kans and Deff Dreads Troops.

That way the ork codex will end up costing roughly 200 dollars. (If we assume 50 dollars for all four books) and only then will you get all the options you had before. Sure, you'll get new warlord traits and a few new Relics spread out over all the books, but ultimately, you're paying for the honour of getting back the options you had in the last book. The cool options, the ones that allowed the bike horde that I loved so much. (Not an ork player BTW's, I just really liked the look of it.)

Let me know what you think.

Slante

Everyone predicted the same thing with AM, but as of yet no supplement or datasheet for any of the removed characters or units. One supplement per army, (outside of space marines) seems the norm.

I don't think Waaagh! Ghazkull has anything that moves Nobz back into the troops slot and it's difficult to imagine a better book for it; I think Nobz are going to be in the Elite section for good. Similarly the Red Waaagh! coming next month has Bad Moon emblems on it, so I don't think we will be seeing much of the Kult of Speed.

That said there is absolutely no reason that Ghazkull, Red and the Looted Wagons could not have been included with the core book and I find it despicable that they were released almost in-line with each other.

Dunno about ghaz or red but looteds never really had a model, just a conversion kit and no actual instructions. so it was probably cut on request by there legal division because of that whole thing right now.

at least you guys can still play them again.

 rryannn wrote:
Everyone predicted the same thing with AM, but as of yet no supplement or datasheet for any of the removed characters or units. One supplement per army, (outside of space marines) seems the norm.

We haven't had any supplements at all yet have we? Unless I missed one

Unlike Orks though AM is still an army with a lot of options. They didn't get much taken away from them other than Rambo and a fair few special characters. Admittedly.

As an army though, they play like they did before with a lot of bells and whistles to do different things with.

Orks lost all their cool stuff. As I stated above, a lot of the options are gone and the book just doesn't play the same.

Also, are we not counting 'Codex: Storm Troopers' as a Supplement? Despite saying 'Codex' it's very clearly Supplemental in nature.

Waagh! Ghazghkull does not turn Nobz into troops.

I can say this because I have access to a copy of the book, thanks to the big box for the book.

All it has is dataslates, a unique force organization chart(which requires you to take an Elite in addition to HQ and 2 Troops), an armory, and unique missions relating to Ghazghkull or his forces. Some are "Echoes of War"(read: specific scenarios intended to have you play out a specific battle) and some are "Altars of War".

The closest thing it has to "Nobz as Troops" is the Ghazghkull's Bullyboyz dataslate which is for Mega Nobz. It's 3 units of a minimum of 5 Mega Nobz taken as a formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Celtic Strike wrote:

Also, are we not counting 'Codex: Storm Troopers' as a Supplement? Despite saying 'Codex' it's very clearly Supplemental in nature.

Then by that nature Codex: Imperial Knights is a supplement.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:

Also, are we not counting 'Codex: Storm Troopers' as a Supplement? Despite saying 'Codex' it's very clearly Supplemental in nature.

Then by that nature Codex: Imperial Knights is a supplement.

Well, are you planning on running an army using no other codex than the Knight one? I'm not sure but I'm guessing a pure knight army isn't that viable.

I've been patiently waiting the "Tyranid Mycetic Spores supplement" but it hasn't arrived yet I'd actually pay for that one

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:

Also, are we not counting 'Codex: Storm Troopers' as a Supplement? Despite saying 'Codex' it's very clearly Supplemental in nature.

Then by that nature Codex: Imperial Knights is a supplement.

Well, are you planning on running an army using no other codex than the Knight one? I'm not sure but I'm guessing a pure knight army isn't that viable.

The litmus test isn't "is it viable for tournament play?" but rather "Can I play using just this book?".

The answer is yes, you can play using just that book. You don't need to consult any other books for rules in either case.

I second Kanluwen, you cannot take Nobz as troops.
I also have access to a copy of the book, thanks to my big box called 'modem'

But you can take 5 elite-choices, so I don't think it matters seeing as they are also scoring.

The Ghazkull-supplement is more fluff than anything else.
Someone managed to put all the rules in a seven page pdf with lots of free space and big letters; I could probably get it in 4. So minimal rules, no "extra units" and mostly fluff.
What it does have are missions, tactical objectives, lots of formations and a special Detachment.
In my opinion it's worth the cash and I see it as completely optional.

I actually kinda would count Imperial knights as a supplement to the entire Imperial organization. The only difference being that it added a new model.

Codex: Storm Troopers is exactly what other supplements are. A FOC swap, new Relics, new Warlord charts, some altar of war missions and some fluff. Just like all the others.

Anyway, so Ghaz's doesn't make Nobs Troops? Then what's the point of the supplement? That would be the perfect place to do it.

Thanks for the info, so right now we actually have a new codex with a lot less options than the last one.

Any info on the Red Waaagh Supplement?

 Celtic Strike wrote:
I actually kinda would count Imperial knights as a supplement to the entire Imperial organization. The only difference being that it added a new model.

Which just goes to show that your idea of what a "supplement" is lacks real definition.

Codex: Storm Troopers is exactly what other supplements are. A FOC swap, new Relics, new Warlord charts, some altar of war missions and some fluff. Just like all the others.

It has no Altar of War missions. It has no Relics(at all) and the FOC swap isn't just that. It adds Orders just for the Tempestus book that can only be issued by Tempestor Primes from the Command Squad you get as an HQ choice.
It gets rid of the "Platoon" requirement for Scions and instead turns them into independent squads.

Anyway, so Ghaz's doesn't make Nobs Troops? Then what's the point of the supplement? That would be the perfect place to do it.

The "point of the supplement", I assume, is to give you a bunch of formations that were associated with Waaagh! Ghazghkull during the Third War for Armageddon. Things like "Snikrot's Red Skull Kommandos" or "Zagstruk's Vulcha Boyz"--basically dataslates that allow you to field a more specialized formation that would normally have been an Apocalypse formation in normal games instead.

Thanks for the info, so right now we actually have a new codex with a lot less options than the last one.

If only they had given Boyz the option to take 'Eavy Armor across the board...

Oh wait. They did.

Any info on the Red Waaagh Supplement?

There isn't one?

Celtic Strike wrote:(Other than it seemed to be designed by a non-ork gamer and it was stuffed with filler, but that's another story)

Most of the army options from the old book were gone. Warbosses no longer make a single mob of Nobs Troops, Big Meks no longer make a Single Deff Dread a Troop, Wazdakka is gone, so no Bikes as Troops. You get Boyz and Gretchin. That's it. All the fun options were gone, all the characterful stuff was out.

So, here's my hypothesis; Day one DLC - ala Ubisoft and EA. They had all those options in there and then someone down the line realized something;

'Why should we do that? This is a corporation. We have to make money! Why release one Codex with all the options? Then we'll only get 50 dollars from the player. Why not pull out those options and then print out new Supplements that allow them to do that?'

So, here's what I'm betting, Ghaz's supplement allows Nobs as Troops. There will be a Kult of Speed Supplement that allows bikes as Troops. There will be a Mek Supplement that allows you to make Kans and Deff Dreads Troops.

That way the ork codex will end up costing roughly 200 dollars. (If we assume 50 dollars for all four books) and only then will you get all the options you had before. Sure, you'll get new warlord traits and a few new Relics spread out over all the books, but ultimately, you're paying for the honour of getting back the options you had in the last book. The cool options, the ones that allowed the bike horde that I loved so much. (Not an ork player BTW's, I just really liked the look of it.)

Let me know what you think.

Slante

On subject of FOC. It looks like GW are pushing for unbound armies to be the norm. As such having FOC doesn't matter. The Formations that Orks can take right now can create Dreadmob, Kommando, Meganob, Nob, Stormboys, and Greentide detachments. Not like before but its there.

Day One DLC keeps coming up on several forums. Did Imperial Guard players cry foul when the Tempestus book came? If I remember correctly. Eldar had Craftworld Iyanda(sp) within a couple of weeks of release. Same with Farsight. This is nothing new.

As far as the Codex goes it is 104 pages full color. 4th Edition Codex was 104 pages and Black and White for the most part. Waaagh! Ghaz's book is about 80 pages. If all of that was in one book it would be the equivalent of the BRB, which some people I know are trying to trade for the smaller book because it takes up too much space.

Mozzamanx wrote:I don't think Waaagh! Ghazkull has anything that moves Nobz back into the troops slot and it's difficult to imagine a better book for it; I think Nobz are going to be in the Elite section for good. Similarly the Red Waaagh! coming next month has Bad Moon emblems on it, so I don't think we will be seeing much of the Kult of Speed.

That said there is absolutely no reason that Ghazkull, Red and the Looted Wagons could not have been included with the core book and I find it despicable that they were released almost in-line with each other.

Red Waaagh! is Grukk's Waaagh. It has combinations of different clans, probably will have speed freaks represented.

 rryannn wrote:
Everyone predicted the same thing with AM, but as of yet no supplement or datasheet for any of the removed characters or units. One supplement per army, (outside of space marines) seems the norm.

chaos has 2


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Celtic Strike wrote:
snip

except 7th edition allows you to create unbound lists so you can say feth all to what restrictions the new codex puts on you

And I'd like to see any player refuse a game with you once you show him your themed armylist.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Most of the army options from the old book were gone. Warbosses no longer make a single mob of Nobs Troops, Big Meks no longer make a Single Deff Dread a Troop, Wazdakka is gone, so no Bikes as Troops. You get Boyz and Gretchin. That's it. All the fun options were gone, all the characterful stuff was out.

I believe that this is not so much down to the potential for later DLC as simply a side-effect of the addition of Unbound lists to the game. There is no particular need to include character options to shift things from one slot to another when you can just build an army from whatever you want anyway.

As of right now, it's looking like the release this weekend is not "Da Red Waagh!" but rather it is an Apocalypse Warzone book in the same vein as Valedor, Pandorax, or Damnos.

Plus the model everyone keeps hailing as Gruuk is not Gruuk. It's a named Bad Moons Warboss(specifically Warboss Snazzdakka) from the Waagh! Ghazghkull supplement and the mission "Uniting The Clans". It's on page 70 of the book.

[quote=Kanluwen 602970 6982585 6fe3a096667b23b42dc263de6a30cd1b.jpg
If only they had given Boyz the option to take 'Eavy Armor across the board...

I don't mind having extra books with additional rules; its the prices for the amount of...anything you get.

The Knights codex, having all of 2 units, which are effectively 1 unit with a weapon swap, is ridiculously overpriced. If it was free, I'd be happy. If it was $15 for a softcover book with a real army of Knights filled with several types, I'd be happy. If there was a $40 hardcover book with several different types of knights and lots of excellent, new, original fluff and artwork, I'd be happy.

But paying $60 for a hardcover book with little to no crunch, recycled fluff, recycled art, and otherwise poor layout, is a little much. This goes for all the current codices. Supplements are worse.

I'm a firm believer that rules can easily be made free as a download. These would be just the rules; no fluff, no art, just barebones stats. Then you offer a book, a single book for each faction, with all the rules you need, plus the art and fluff neatly laid out. This is the paid content; somewhere between $30 and $60 dependent on the content.

That way everyone wins.

None of this microtransaction nonsense, or offering a series of $60 books for very little crunch (that can often fit on a page or two in the main book) and some fluff and artwork that may or not be recycled in whole or in part.

If I'm going to pay $60 for a hardcover book, I want a few things. I want options; a codex with balance and plenty of choices, including rules for different sub factions. I want fluff; every edition I want more original fluff, flesh out the old stuff better, and expand upon the smaller sub factions. I want artwork; I like seeing the old stuff, but I want new art of nearly everything.

If I'm going to pay $60 for a hardcover book, I want to feel like I'm getting what I paid for. After buying the new IG book, I don't feel like I'm getting that.

I don't mind the idea of supplements, I just want the core book to feel like it doesn't need a supplement to make it interesting, or complete, or exciting, or...fun.

That's the issue, the new ork codex totally feels like it was purposefully lacking something just so they could justify the later supplements.

But there is a huge flaw in puting units outside of troops or puting a lot of them in to the same army slot , if unbound is suppose to balance it. First of all , that is like writing a codex to be balance by FW rules. And secondly , if an army can not be played as a normal single detachment army , like all the other good armies , why bother with a new codex ?

 Sir Arun wrote:

 rryannn wrote:
Everyone predicted the same thing with AM, but as of yet no supplement or datasheet for any of the removed characters or units. One supplement per army, (outside of space marines) seems the norm.

chaos has 2


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Celtic Strike wrote:
snip

except 7th edition allows you to create unbound lists so you can say feth all to what restrictions the new codex puts on you

And I'd like to see any player refuse a game with you once you show him your themed armylist.

That would be cool if most of the internet chatter I've seen and ALL major tourneys hadn't banned unbound outright. Tourney's are not going to allow LOW so Ghaz is out, no matter how NOT OP he is.

Also, don't get me started on Farsight Enclave. That supplement did not need to exist and I play Tau. You know how you could've made that entire thing not exist? This unit entry:

"Farsight Enclave: In any detachment where Commander Farsight is your Warlord, Crisis suits may be taken as both Elites and Troop choices. Note that this detachment may not contain Ethereals or Commander Shadowsun."

Done.

The actually interesting Supplement would've been the fabled 'Codex: Kroot.' That would actually be cool and fun and not at all a naked cash grab.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
That would be cool if most of the internet chatter I've seen and ALL major tourneys hadn't banned unbound outright. Tourney's are not going to allow LOW so Ghaz is out, no matter how NOT OP he is.

And the tournament we've seen allowing unbound was horribly fethed.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The litmus test isn't "is it viable for tournament play?" but rather "Can I play using just this book?".

And yet we have "Codex: Legion of the Damned" that auto loses turn 1 when played by itself.

 Yonan wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:
That would be cool if most of the internet chatter I've seen and ALL major tourneys hadn't banned unbound outright. Tourney's are not going to allow LOW so Ghaz is out, no matter how NOT OP he is.

And the tournament we've seen allowing unbound was horribly fethed.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The litmus test isn't "is it viable for tournament play?" but rather "Can I play using just this book?".

And yet we have "Codex: Legion of the Damned" that auto loses turn 1 when played by itself.

So, is this reinforcing my point? Or no?

The reason we've lost the focus on shifting troops choices is that those were a byproduct of fifth edition's ONLY TROOPS SCORE change. With the shift back towards everything scoring there isn't the need for FOC juggling anymore. Any new FOC shenanigans will come from formations. GW doesn't love unbound as much as certain elements think they do - otherwise they wouldn't be throwing formations and FOCs at us like they are.

And the reason they keep giving us supplements is because it is exactly what we asked for. The community demanded them, GW tried them out, and they sell like hotcakes. They can't print them fast enough for some of us.

And since no one has correctly answered it yet, The Red Waaaaagh! is the subtitle of SANCTUS REACH - which is rumored to be the new Planet Strike update we've been hearing about for a while - not a Warzone. Next Warzone is supposed to be Armageddon, which comes later this year.

I'll pay the FOC shenanigans not being present due to unbound. It doesn't reduce how bad it is for players though, since unbound is ridiculous and therefore justifiably banned in many (most?) areas and tournaments. WTB coke classic, pst!

Massawyrm wrote:
The reason we've lost the focus on shifting troops choices is that those were a byproduct of fifth edition's ONLY TROOPS SCORE change. With the shift back towards everything scoring there isn't the need for FOC juggling anymore. Any new FOC shenanigans will come from formations. GW doesn't love unbound as much as certain elements think they do - otherwise they wouldn't be throwing formations and FOCs at us like they are.

I partially agree.
The love for unbound is not like some people make it to be, not when Orks can now pick between 5 different kinds of detachments and when they have half a dozen formations.
I am glad we are moving away from the "1 HQ, 2 troops or GTFO"-FOC because this makes different factions even more distinct.

The shift on troop-choices might be a byproduct of the fact that everything scores.
What GW forgets is that many players liked to play Ork-armies without any Boyz, they cannot do that anymore.
Those players could always use 2 or 3 x Gretchin or Boyz, but they are now forced to buy and field them.

Simple solution: don't buy them anymore.

Slightly more elaborate solution: Don't buy them anymore, and complain online so other people know not to buy them too.

 insaniak wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Most of the army options from the old book were gone. Warbosses no longer make a single mob of Nobs Troops, Big Meks no longer make a Single Deff Dread a Troop, Wazdakka is gone, so no Bikes as Troops. You get Boyz and Gretchin. That's it. All the fun options were gone, all the characterful stuff was out.

I believe that this is not so much down to the potential for later DLC as simply a side-effect of the addition of Unbound lists to the game. There is no particular need to include character options to shift things from one slot to another when you can just build an army from whatever you want anyway.

I agree.

There is no definition for "codex" but what I have always understood it to be is a book that lists the units and rules for an army and allows you to create a "legal" army in the sense of providing an HQ and Troops units at minimum, plus some options for Elites and so on.

As GW simply gave Knight Titans spaces in the HQ and Troops slots, they can make a legal army and also fill more units into the other slots if they want to.

Of course an "army" that has only one type of unit with two variants is not what we would normally understand by the term, and previous codexes have always contained a wide variety of units. From that angle, Codex: Imperial Knights is clearly intended to be a supplement to allow any Imperial army to add mini-Titans to its list by Allying.

The Unbound rule of course makes the whole concept of a codex irrelevant. GW could easily release every unit as a single sheet of A4 listing its rules, allowing players to collect just the ones they want and assemble an army by putting all their unit sheets into a ring-binder.