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Made in no
Terrifying Doombull





Hefnaheim

No just no, there is more hope of the Emperor suddenly just getting up and start to slap the Adeptus Administaratum around, than to ever use Chaos for anything good. Chaos is the bane to all life and flirting with its ruinos powers only lead to damnation and eternal suffering
   
Made in gb
Fireknife Shas'el





Leicester

Is gravity evil?

That's the way I've always thought of it; in the 40k universe Chaos is a force of nature, it's a reflection of the sentient life in the universe. I've read in a couple of places that Khorne used to be an embodiment of martial honour rather than just death (think Samurai rather than berserker), but then everyone got into xenophobia and genocide and changed his aspect.

Chaos isn't good or evil, it just is.

DS:80+S+GM+B+I+Pw40k08D+A++WD355R+T(M)DM+
 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Chaos isn't freedom, there's a reason they went with the name Slaves to Darkness you know.
   
Made in se
Rookie Pilot




Vasteras, Sweden

Sure they can!

In fact in my imagination most traitors think they are doing the "right thing", like making sacrifices for the greater good while freeing citizens from the oppressive Empire, saving the galaxy's biodiversity from the destructive forces of the Empire etc. It is usually no until it is too late that the Chaos gods show their true motives....

When you think about it the Emperor and his realm doesn't operate so differently from the chaos forces. Either side is willing to sacrifice millions of beings for strategic or even tactical gain. So who is the most evil? The commander ordering the extinction of a whole world or marines trying to free it? Or a Bloodthirster trying to harvest souls or the Emperor doing the same things with his black ships. Different logistics, same effect!

So for me "doing good" with chaos mostly about changing point of view. Leave the approved Imperial Truth behind and do a writeup from the chaos point of view!
   
Made in de
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






germany,bavaria

 Jadenim wrote:
Is gravity evil?



Yessssss

Whenever you assemble a model, this evil force called gravity pulls on those small parts you really don't want to search on the floor down towards it.
Very very evil thing this gravity.



Chaos isn't used, chaos finds a use for YOU.
And thats not going well. Ruinous powers they are.

The Immaterium however, can be used for good. The realm is useful, the denizens dwelling there maybe not.





Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
Made in gb
Drakhun





Many people who fall to chaos are using it for good intentions.

It never ends well, imagine the One Ring from Lord of the Rings. Originally you would be using it for good, but eventually you will fall to evil, not that chaos is evil, it is simply chaotic.

DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

(Bear in mind I'm a Chaos player)

I'd say that chaos, as a power, can be used for good. An example would be furthering human progress. Being able to tell the laws of physics to go fk themselves is an excellent way to get ahead. The only trouble is that chaos at this point has become sentient, and likes nothing more than to further its own ends, by turning you into an agent of Chaos.

Looking at the Old Ones, they quite clearly used the warp, and became exceedingly powerful, practically gods. But then their experiments got out of hand and the backlash created the warp as it is today.
   
Made in us
Navigator




Frostbite Falls

Chaos cannot be turned against Chaos, proud Relictor. You are less a heretic than an imbecile if you believe that. The Dark Powers know your desire to use their sacrilegious tools; they exploit and manipulate it for their own ends - even in the loyal subjects of the Imperium.

- High Inquisitor Bronislaw Czevak to Techmarine Saul Torqhuil
   
Made in gb
Sinister Chaos Marine





The way I see it, if you're a human chances are you live a utterly terrible life anyway, unless you're lucky enough to be born onto a paradise or maybe an agri world, so you should probably roll the dice and take your chances with chaos in an endeavor to reach daemonhood. If you die in the process, you end up getting your soul torn to shreds by daemons, which was going to happen anyway so you may as well die in a blaze of glory, screaming praise to the dark gods as you get disemboweled with a chainsword.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

At low levels, perhaps.

At higher levels though, the Chaos gods invariably demand you do immoral things, to make literal sacrifices, to hurt people for the sake of hurting them, just to please the fickle gods' egos.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/07 16:05:53


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

 Jadenim wrote:
Is gravity evil?

That's the way I've always thought of it; in the 40k universe Chaos is a force of nature, it's a reflection of the sentient life in the universe. I've read in a couple of places that Khorne used to be an embodiment of martial honour rather than just death (think Samurai rather than berserker), but then everyone got into xenophobia and genocide and changed his aspect.

Chaos isn't good or evil, it just is.


That's fanon based on previous editions of Warhammer. Khorne has kinda-sorta always been the god of martial skill and martial pride.... and he has also always been the god of violence, bloodshed and slaughter.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Frozen Ocean wrote:

The best example of this would be Daemon Worlds presided over by Daemon Princes. The very fabric of reality within that world is subject to the will of the Prince in question. They could make it an idyllic paradise where people live in peace in harmony if they wanted, just as much as they could make it a fiery hellscape full of nothing but endless war and torment.


There have been a LOT of daemon worlds mentioned in the fluff so far and I don't think you could call any of them an "idyllic paradise". At BEST you might get a functioning daemon world and even that's rare. The vast majority of them are shown to be very VERY not-nice hell holes, in twisted ways that are often beyond even what the Imperium has.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/08 00:58:01


 
   
Made in us
Leaping Khawarij






Through this, I can see why people choose Chaos and what it presents. I would still say that it isn't my cup of tea and will stick to my Grey Knights and Imperial Fists. So, the Emperor protects!

 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




The Eye of Terror

Skipped over the second page: Going to leave this conversation at this point and encourage everyone to dive in and discover. Seriously, good stuff is out there about the nature of Chaos and how it can be "used."

"If the Path to Salvation should lead through the Halls of Purgatory, then so be it." ~Ahzek Ahriman, Chief Librarian of the Thousand Sons.

If ever there was an example of how Chaos could be used for "good," it is in the stories of the Thousand Sons and the extrapolations that can be drawn about what Ahriman hopes to accomplish and how he plays an impossible game on an infinite battlefield with an unknowable aspect of the Warp that can literally see and know everything in real time...but it can't. +__+

There is no better definition of the word Paradox than the back and forth between Tzeentch, Magnus, Ahriman and the Thousand Sons of Old and New (Red and Blue). And if one needed a better thing to look at to show the limitations of the Ruinous Powers, how about the story of Kairos Fateweaver?

SPOILER: For those of you who don't already know...


Tzeentch ISN'T omnipotent. He can't actually see everything as clearly as people want to believe, even with the title of "Great Conspirator." Why? And how is this possible? Well, at the heart of the labyrinth and crystal castle or w/e lies something called the Well of Eternity. Here, in this well, lies all time and all possible time. But Tzeentch is too scared to go in himself because he doesn't know if he'll make it back out, so instead he throws in a Lord of Change instead and what comes back to him? A two headed, impossibly aged Kairos Fateweaver. And what is Kairos' gift? Perfect vision of the Past and the Future, but completely inept to the Present. And there you have the cinch in the armor of arguably the most powerful of the Chaos Gods, to speak of.

Tzeentch is gifted with absolute knowledge of the Present and he can gleam the Future and the Past through the Well of Eternity, but he can not see it personally. Only Kairos Fateweaver has that power, but no ability to act on the Present. Put the two together, and you've got a slightly better Tzeentch.

...and then there is Ahriman... +__+

So aside from the obvious "Define Good? Define Evil?" you can look at Ahriman and his personal rebellion to see that Chaos, or the Warp, is simply what you make it. Choice is the ultimate power.

Knowledge.

"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/559359.page#6178253 <--Link to my CSM Army lists. 
   
Made in us
Leaping Khawarij






I don't use the Warp and Chaos interchangeably, roughly because we have seen it through Emperor, the Eldar and the Grey Knight turn the warp against chaos to the point that the grey knight powers are the anathema of Chaos.

Chaos is a faction that just resides in the warp and has given in to it's full potential regardless of the consequences. Psykers like that of the Grey Knights exercise restraint and discipline to use the eldritch powers while resisting it's mutating properties.

 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




The Eye of Terror

 Envihon wrote:
I don't use the Warp and Chaos interchangeably, roughly because we have seen it through Emperor, the Eldar and the Grey Knight turn the warp against chaos to the point that the grey knight powers are the anathema of Chaos.

Chaos is a faction that just resides in the warp and has given in to it's full potential regardless of the consequences. Psykers like that of the Grey Knights exercise restraint and discipline to use the eldritch powers while resisting it's mutating properties.


It is suggested, however, that psykers who would revel in glee, rather than recoil in horror of what their power has wrought, often fall to the forces of Chaos. That said though, Choice is still the ultimate power here.

Also, for the record, it is suggested that "Brother Brutus" (if I got his name right) is a Grey Knight seed of Chaos, waiting to bloom in future endeavors, ensured by Tzeentch and his trickster, the Changeling. <---Dude got a whole page about his background in the 40k universe. Too bad he's a puss.

"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/559359.page#6178253 <--Link to my CSM Army lists. 
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

Changeling isn't a pussy, his game rules just suck, lol.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




The Eye of Terror

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Changeling isn't a pussy, his game rules just suck, lol.


I would argue both. He's like the ultimate troll. There to piss you off before you know what happened, and then get away fast enough before you can do anything about it. A bad ass, certainly, but still a puss. Also, see Space Dandy's episode with the Chamelalien for great examples of how a shape shifter can ruin your life. @.@ Trippy stuff.

"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/559359.page#6178253 <--Link to my CSM Army lists. 
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

Shapeshifters are freaking awesome. Definitely in the top ten 'badass superpowers not to mess with'.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Shapeshifters are freaking awesome. Definitely in the top ten 'badass superpowers not to mess with'.

Problem is that realistically, a shapeshifter can only turn into something of equal mass (and arguably makeup). You'd need something with the power to completely change their fundamental construction to do things like go from a lion to a fly and back again. And somehow retain its sentience.

But, if you're made of warp it's easy.
   
Made in us
Leaping Khawarij






 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
I don't use the Warp and Chaos interchangeably, roughly because we have seen it through Emperor, the Eldar and the Grey Knight turn the warp against chaos to the point that the grey knight powers are the anathema of Chaos.

Chaos is a faction that just resides in the warp and has given in to it's full potential regardless of the consequences. Psykers like that of the Grey Knights exercise restraint and discipline to use the eldritch powers while resisting it's mutating properties.


It is suggested, however, that psykers who would revel in glee, rather than recoil in horror of what their power has wrought, often fall to the forces of Chaos. That said though, Choice is still the ultimate power here.

Also, for the record, it is suggested that "Brother Brutus" (if I got his name right) is a Grey Knight seed of Chaos, waiting to bloom in future endeavors, ensured by Tzeentch and his trickster, the Changeling. <---Dude got a whole page about his background in the 40k universe. Too bad he's a puss.


I still highly doubt that is going to happen. Honestly, as much as people would like a GK to fall, especially Chaos players, I don't think its going to happen because a GK has to go through a lot in order for that immunity to be gained...almost full on torture and the brain washing bit. They always recover from it and even those that have found out about their pasts, they have yet let it bother them.

 
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

 Envihon wrote:


I still highly doubt that is going to happen. Honestly, as much as people would like a GK to fall, especially Chaos players, I don't think its going to happen because a GK has to go through a lot in order for that immunity to be gained...almost full on torture and the brain washing bit. They always recover from it and even those that have found out about their pasts, they have yet let it bother them.


almost? Grey Knights are definitely put through torture as part of their indoctrination.

However, their immunity isn't just a result of resilience training. It's also a result of arcane rituals and sorcery, along with a piece of wargear called the Aegis.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Leaping Khawarij






 Furyou Miko wrote:
 Envihon wrote:


I still highly doubt that is going to happen. Honestly, as much as people would like a GK to fall, especially Chaos players, I don't think its going to happen because a GK has to go through a lot in order for that immunity to be gained...almost full on torture and the brain washing bit. They always recover from it and even those that have found out about their pasts, they have yet let it bother them.


almost? Grey Knights are definitely put through torture as part of their indoctrination.

However, their immunity isn't just a result of resilience training. It's also a result of arcane rituals and sorcery, along with a piece of wargear called the Aegis.


The Aegis wouldn't protect a Grey Knight from the wit of the Changeling, just the presence and direct psychic manipulation of the Grey Knight which is why the Aegis in game protects against psychic powers. Most Tzeentch followers that engage a Grey Knight don't do it through psychic might but merely through talking to them and reasoning with them. It's what happened to Alaric in the Grey Knight Omnibus. The Grey Knights are not emotionless automatons but an Astartes with human traits that can be exploited which is why if a Grey Knight ever does fall, it would be to Tzeentch because even with Tzeentch being good at psychic powers, they can also persuade really well. Something the Aegis has no effect on.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/09 00:56:52


 
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

Heh, and that's why their hypno-indoctrination is never going to render them as immune as the Sisters' pure faith.

Indoctriation can be broken. True belief can't be dissuaded. You'd have to use psychic means to turn a Sister.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Leaping Khawarij






 Furyou Miko wrote:
Heh, and that's why their hypno-indoctrination is never going to render them as immune as the Sisters' pure faith.

Indoctriation can be broken. True belief can't be dissuaded. You'd have to use psychic means to turn a Sister.


The Grey Knights have strong faith themselves. The Sisters are similarly indoctrinated, they just are mind wiped to do it. And the Sisters faith hasn't even prevented them from falling to Chaos, the Grey Knights have at least never fallen. There are a couple almost falls like Alaric but nothing that is they turned to Chaos.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Part of the issue is that the gods seemingly like evil acts more than good ones. When was the last time Nurgle made someone into a daemon prince for helping out the poor? When was the last time Tzeentch blessed someone for freeing a bunch of under privileged people and showing them that they had hope in their lives in a way that didn't involve backstabbing and killing and sacrificing souls? When was the last time Khorne gave his blessings to someone for sheer bravery and steel balls instead of wantan murder? When was the last time Slaanesh blessed someone for making something into a better place rather than being a cruel torturing sadist having an orgasm?

If the Chaos Gods and their daemons do pay attention to those things rather than simply spreading entropy, ambition only for the self, murder, and cruelty, the fluff sure as hell isn't showing it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/09 01:27:29


 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




The Eye of Terror

We shall see with Brother Brutus of the Grey Knights. +__+

TiamatRoar wrote:
Part of the issue is that the gods seemingly like evil acts more than good ones. When was the last time Nurgle made someone into a daemon prince for helping out the poor? When was the last time Tzeentch blessed someone for freeing a bunch of under privileged people and showing them that they had hope in their lives in a way that didn't involve backstabbing and killing and sacrificing souls? When was the last time Khorne gave his blessings to someone for sheer bravery and steel balls instead of wantan murder? When was the last time Slaanesh blessed someone for making something into a better place rather than being a cruel torturing sadist having an orgasm?

If the Chaos Gods and their daemons do pay attention to those things rather than simply spreading entropy, ambition only for the self, murder, and cruelty, the fluff sure as hell isn't showing it.


Consider that Good and Evil are simply a matter of perspective. Who is to say freedom from death isn't a good thing in the eyes of Nurgle? Or that luring a planets worth of followers to the truth of Tzeentch is bad? Or that Khorne has not rewarded the gladiator who survived? Or that Slaaneshi daemon worlds don't prosper from the excess around them?

It's all a matter of perspective. +__+

"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/559359.page#6178253 <--Link to my CSM Army lists. 
   
Made in us
Leaping Khawarij






Nurgle explicitly prevents death, that is his thing after all. Oh sure, you may be a zombie with your guts dragging on the ground but you aren't dead, right?!

 
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

Envihon wrote:
 Furyou Miko wrote:
Heh, and that's why their hypno-indoctrination is never going to render them as immune as the Sisters' pure faith.

Indoctriation can be broken. True belief can't be dissuaded. You'd have to use psychic means to turn a Sister.


The Grey Knights have strong faith themselves. The Sisters are similarly indoctrinated, they just are mind wiped to do it. And the Sisters faith hasn't even prevented them from falling to Chaos, the Grey Knights have at least never fallen. There are a couple almost falls like Alaric but nothing that is they turned to Chaos.



Uh, no Sister of Battle has ever fallen. Ever. Not a single one, unless you count a single third party card game.

Alaric fell, and was magically redeemed somehow. But he still fell.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




The Eye of Terror

 Envihon wrote:
Nurgle explicitly prevents death, that is his thing after all. Oh sure, you may be a zombie with your guts dragging on the ground but you aren't dead, right?!


Not exactly. Nurgle is Death as well as New Life (in the sense that fungus and carrion feeders thrive on a corpse). So...paradox. But it doesn't answer the ambiguity of "Good? Evil?"

Personally, I don't believe Evil truly exists. Never met the guy who wakes up and says "I'm gonna be Evil today. And do Evil things." And I'm looking for that mofo too, just so I can deck him. >D That's why Chaos is so much more alluring to me. Way more interesting to have Order v. Chaos rather than Good v. Evil, despite how one might think they may be interchangeable.

"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/559359.page#6178253 <--Link to my CSM Army lists. 
   
 
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