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In Warhammer 40k, I think we are used to that this is a grim, dark future where there aren't really any good guys. The Imperium as a whole is an oppressive bureaucracy that sacrifices billions every day to keep it together with propaganda to keep those citizens in the dark and hoping for a brighter future. The Eldar are selfish and manipulative who would sentence an entire species to extinction if it meant their continued survival. The Tau's "greater good" does much like these other examples and sacrifices personal freedom and lives in order to keep the Empire together.

Despite it, though, there are some good to be found in the above factions with multiple examples of heroism and selflessness. Some of the other factions not mentioned: Orks live for fighting and don't really believe in anything else. The Necrons are soulless and selfish trying to get their empire back as well as get their flesh back (unless you count the bro-fisting with Blood Angels to count as a selfless act). The Tyranids are an all-consuming biomass with no real empathy.

So, my question is this, is there any good in Chaos? It is presented as the evil of evil to which the above factions strive to conquer but has Chaos ever been selfless? Has there been any good that has come of Chaos or are they the standing bad guy? I am rolling Dark Eldar into this camp as well since they are connected to Slaanesh and thus are soul vampires.

There are Traitor Marines that I sympathize and agree with, don't get me wrong. The Night Lords, Alpha Legion and Thousand Sons I really like and have feels for but all their decisions are still destructive. So I put it to the Chaos players from an Imperial Player who loves to be the hero, what are the redeeming values of Chaos or is it just destruction and power seeking?

Well when you look at the basis of Chaos the Gods are entirely manipulative. They promise "immortality" to literally ALL of their followers. Even the lowly Cultist is whispered promises of Deamonhood. So I would say that Chaos is a bunch of hounds trying to "prove" themselves to the gods. The lower ranks merely follow the stronger Chaos Lord because he will bring the Gods gaze...and in the cultists or champions case allows them to "prove" themselves. Although the Chaos Gods are only promising them this prize that is all but unreachable for more then 3/4 of the followers. A regular human will not reach great reknown when compared with the millions of genetically enhanced super soldiers that the Chaos Gods have at their bidding. The Gods are really manipulative and devious which makes me think they don't have any good inside of them. They are just playing the marines as pawns to create more blood/decay/pleasure/change.

A lot of it is twisted. A lot of Chaos marines (especially fromnthe heresy era) have some profound reason as to why they do what they do.

The Imperium can be very genocidal sometimes and Chaos uses that as a conduit to hate and bitterness. For instance, Chaos mocks the Imperium for how they would rather nuke a seemingly hopeless planet because of fear, fear of the alien, the heretic and the mutant. Billions of people exterminated for whatever the gain. Its these controversial actions that drive Chaos marines to destruction.

Chaos is neither good nor evil. Most of the time, Chaotic corruption doesn't make people evil, it makes them more susceptible to the influence of the Dark Gods whose ultimate goal is to consume souls, which is no more evil than any predator killing for food.

Chaos is most often used for selfish gain; an Aspiring Champion sacrificing whole worlds to merit a reward, a Sorcerer offering souls to daemons in exchange for forbidden knowledge. The Gods are neither good nor evil, and how their gifts are used is up to the user.

The best example of this would be Daemon Worlds presided over by Daemon Princes. The very fabric of reality within that world is subject to the will of the Prince in question. They could make it an idyllic paradise where people live in peace in harmony if they wanted, just as much as they could make it a fiery hellscape full of nothing but endless war and torment.

Selflessness and good are not the same, however. The Chaos Gods themselves are completely selfish, seeing life as prey and a means to an end. Anything given is because it benefits them, ultimately*. The Eldar are selfish, yes, but they are still the most good overall. Think of how they consider their species how you would consider your own family. Would you rather your family die, or a thousand meaningless insect species go extinct? Bear in mind that they don't gleefully slaughter their way through the galaxy, they just care more about their own than they do about anything else, and they really can't be blamed for that.

Chaos is power, and, like in real life, the application of that power can be good or bad. It's just that most people are bad. Also, the majority of factions see Chaos as evil because it's pretty much trying to eat them (or at least the Gods are), which includes the Dark Eldar.

You'll probably not find any stories about this, though. Writers of 40k lore seem adamant to portray every faction as one-sided, with every member of that faction essentially the same as every other - ie, all Dark Eldar are pure evil, every single one. The same applies to Chaos Space Marines.

EDIT: * But this doesn't mean no good can come from it.

Beware, lest one gaze too long into the Warp, for the Warp also gazes into you.

The concept of using Chaos for good is the path of the Radical. Can it be? Possibly in the short-term. In the long term? It is a road to ruination and damnation.

Heresy.... BURN THE HERETIC...
No seriously using chaos powers is like being the main bars get in a Greek play..
It's a fantastic idea.... At the time...

Radical Inquisitors who use these powers.. Well... It not a mater of if they're currupted.. But when.. And by how much, over how long...

EHHHH

Depends on what you consider good. The Laer honestly didn't seem to bad at all, just gigantic orgies, which I don't consider to be a bad thing at all.

This is just kind of re-enforcing my opinion that nothing good can come from siding with Chaos.

 Envihon wrote:
This is just kind of re-enforcing my opinion that nothing good can come from siding with Chaos.

Well there was the Laer, who didn't seem to be "evil" in the CSM/Lost and the Damned sense. Chaos just seems to really break things when corrupting large empires into their clutches. Or maybe it's just humans.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
This is just kind of re-enforcing my opinion that nothing good can come from siding with Chaos.

Well there was the Laer, who didn't seem to be "evil" in the CSM/Lost and the Damned sense. Chaos just seems to really break things when corrupting large empires into their clutches. Or maybe it's just humans.

Hmmm, makes me want to read Fulgrim but I absolutely despise the Emperor's Children more than any other Legion or Chaos force. I am reading Angel Exterminatus and want nothing more than Perturabo to just send his giant hammer into Fulgrim's face. The Emperor's Children just annoy me a lot.

I was pretty much convinced Chaos Space Marines are the good guys in the world of 40k. I always saw them as the counter to everything the Imperium is. They are the 40k version of Cromwell.

I don't know how to quite follow that logic, both seem pretty bad to me and at least the Imperium has forces like the Space Wolves and the Salamanders to protect the common citizen.

There was this Fanfic from 4chan I found awhile ago that followed the exploits of a Thousand Sons sorceror who renounced his allegiance to chaos and started hunting CSM's. Even has a point where he thwarts an invasion only with his Rubric's.

40k is not a cut and dry galaxy from an objective standpoint. The Imperium is just as dangerous and reckless and bloodthirsty as the Chaos forces. But the victor does write the history so everything you see is in context to subjective propaganda.

Now from a different lens.

Chaos Gods are nothing more than the primordial drive of humans honed to a focused and specific goal. Khorne is war, Nurgle is life/death, ect.. Of all the Gods, perhaps Nurgle is the only one out of the three who has a somewhat altruistic perception of how the universe operates and what he strives to embody. Khorne wants endless war, Tzeentch is all about plots on top of plots, being the ultimate troll and schemer, ect. and Slaanesh is about the excesses of anything you want to do, no matter how depraved.

So I mean I would not go and classify any of these guys as "good" no more than the Imperium. Nurgle comes closest as the "good" Chaos god.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
This is just kind of re-enforcing my opinion that nothing good can come from siding with Chaos.

Well there was the Laer, who didn't seem to be "evil" in the CSM/Lost and the Damned sense. Chaos just seems to really break things when corrupting large empires into their clutches. Or maybe it's just humans.

[spoiler]Well, the Laer were actually doing good keeping that sword away from Fulgrim. They were actually the good guys and they were exterminated for all the wrong reasons. And I too despise the EC

I think people are forgetting chaos is just another name for the warp so you may as well ask can a psyker be used for good and obviously some have used their psychic powers for good. Now the chaos God's are reflections of living beings given consciousness through the power of the wrap and they are the reflections of the more powerful emotions which tend to be destructive and dangerous, but not necessarily at every moment in time.

Personally I think there could be stories written with chaos gods having a positive impact in the universe however those stories wouldn't make much sense given the themes that 40k goes for and that's why you don't see them.

 Envihon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
This is just kind of re-enforcing my opinion that nothing good can come from siding with Chaos.

Well there was the Laer, who didn't seem to be "evil" in the CSM/Lost and the Damned sense. Chaos just seems to really break things when corrupting large empires into their clutches. Or maybe it's just humans.

Hmmm, makes me want to read Fulgrim but I absolutely despise the Emperor's Children more than any other Legion or Chaos force. I am reading Angel Exterminatus and want nothing more than Perturabo to just send his giant hammer into Fulgrim's face. The Emperor's Children just annoy me a lot.

What's wrong with the Emperor's Children?

 CrosisDePurger wrote:
I think people are forgetting chaos is just another name for the warp so you may as well ask can a psyker be used for good and obviously some have used their psychic powers for good. Now the chaos God's are reflections of living beings given consciousness through the power of the wrap and they are the reflections of the more powerful emotions which tend to be destructive and dangerous, but not necessarily at every moment in time.

Personally I think there could be stories written with chaos gods having a positive impact in the universe however those stories wouldn't make much sense given the themes that 40k goes for and that's why you don't see them.

This I disagree with as Chaos isn't the same as the Warp because the Warp existed before the Chaos Gods even existed. Chaos is dependent on the warp like every warp connected species but it is not a synonym for the warp. The Eldar Gods and the Emperor show that Gods of Order do exist within the Immaterium and anything can be made from whether it be Order or Chaos. If the warp = chaos then something like a webway wouldn't exist because that is bringing order to chaos. Simply put, the warp is anything you want it to be since it is your will that molds it. If you are ordered and disciplined then the warp will manifest it that way and the same goes for someone of Chaos minded which is the difference between something like the Grey Knights and Chaos Sorcerers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
This is just kind of re-enforcing my opinion that nothing good can come from siding with Chaos.

Well there was the Laer, who didn't seem to be "evil" in the CSM/Lost and the Damned sense. Chaos just seems to really break things when corrupting large empires into their clutches. Or maybe it's just humans.

Hmmm, makes me want to read Fulgrim but I absolutely despise the Emperor's Children more than any other Legion or Chaos force. I am reading Angel Exterminatus and want nothing more than Perturabo to just send his giant hammer into Fulgrim's face. The Emperor's Children just annoy me a lot.

What's wrong with the Emperor's Children?

Their character traits just really annoy me with everything having to be in excessive and done for the sake of it. I haven't found a character I like at all. All of their personalities are just grating to me. Normally the god I do not like is Nurgle mostly for the grotesque disgusting part of his powers and the pestilence that goes with it but even then, I like Mortarion and the Death Guard, even I can respect giving the gift of immortality despite the cost of it. Fulgrim's and his Legion's fall is just disgraceful, to almost be avoidable. Their vain cocky attitudes were their undoing. But the ordered discipline of the Iron Warriors and their reasons for turning traitor in contrast make it even more tiresome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WarOne wrote:
40k is not a cut and dry galaxy from an objective standpoint. The Imperium is just as dangerous and reckless and bloodthirsty as the Chaos forces. But the victor does write the history so everything you see is in context to subjective propaganda.

Now from a different lens.

Chaos Gods are nothing more than the primordial drive of humans honed to a focused and specific goal. Khorne is war, Nurgle is life/death, ect.. Of all the Gods, perhaps Nurgle is the only one out of the three who has a somewhat altruistic perception of how the universe operates and what he strives to embody. Khorne wants endless war, Tzeentch is all about plots on top of plots, being the ultimate troll and schemer, ect. and Slaanesh is about the excesses of anything you want to do, no matter how depraved.

So I mean I would not go and classify any of these guys as "good" no more than the Imperium. Nurgle comes closest as the "good" Chaos god.

That is almost a change for me on my attitude of Nurgle when you put it that way but as far as treating their follows well, Tzeentch always seemed to do it better.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that there are 'good' gods in the warp, but they're tiny and weak. Stands to reason that if the chaos gods were born out of bloodlust, ambition, excess and stagnation, then gods of order could be born out of desire for peace, humility, self-control and growth. There's just a huge imbalance of those emotions in the souls of warp-active sentient beings in the 40k universe.

"Can Chaos be used for good?"

It sure can my man! For the good of MY SELF. AAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

FOR THE BETTERMENT OF MY OWN PERSONAL "CRUSADE". TO CRUSH ALL OF MY OPPOSITION? DAMN IS THAT EVER GOOOOOOOD. Heheeeeeeheheheheeeeeeeeeeeeeeheeeeeeeeeee.

To answer you question, yes. Chaos is the only true answer. Take charge and play the game. Its for the good of all of mankind.

Its good to expand peoples minds with chaos.

I see Chaos as a parady of Communism (or at least, Cold War era Communism as presented in the West). It makes a lot of promises and such, to escape the harshness of work and freedom for the basic worker, taking advantage of his lowly rank, offering him power, wealth, immortality... Its deliberately made this way to make it seem evil and horrible (especially as 40K was established in the 70s, right in the middle of the Cold War).

The Imperium on the other hand is a parody of the West, or perhaps, and more likely, the UK, as it might be presented in the East. It has an body of rulers (the High Lords) that run the show and don't represent the people they govern and a figurehead (the Emperor) who does little, all the while, the little guy suffers, toiling out lasguns or bolts for a Chimera all day long for all his, then sent away to die on a backwater planet for a government he hates because they don't like who's on the planet, conquering all in their path because they can, reverting things back to the Dark Ages...


So by nature, Chaos can't be used for good. The Imperium are the setting's "protagonists" and I use the term loosely. If my theories are accurate, the two are naturally opposed in all respecta because they are based loosely on the East and West's respective views on one another.

 Deadshot wrote:
I see Chaos as a parady of Communism (or at least, Cold War era Communism as presented in the West). It makes a lot of promises and such, to escape the harshness of work and freedom for the basic worker, taking advantage of his lowly rank, offering him power, wealth, immortality... Its deliberately made this way to make it seem evil and horrible (especially as 40K was established in the 70s, right in the middle of the Cold War).

The Imperium on the other hand is a parody of the West, or perhaps, and more likely, the UK, as it might be presented in the East. It has an body of rulers (the High Lords) that run the show and don't represent the people they govern and a figurehead (the Emperor) who does little, all the while, the little guy suffers, toiling out lasguns or bolts for a Chimera all day long for all his, then sent away to die on a backwater planet for a government he hates because they don't like who's on the planet, conquering all in their path because they can, reverting things back to the Dark Ages...


So by nature, Chaos can't be used for good. The Imperium are the setting's "protagonists" and I use the term loosely. If my theories are accurate, the two are naturally opposed in all respecta because they are based loosely on the East and West's respective views on one another.

I think this was one of the best explanations I have gotten yet.

... though 40K came around in the 80s, not the 70s. It does not predate 2000AD, which was not released until 1977.

There's also no Orient POV present in 40K. It's created by White English folks, for White English folks, based on a pre-existing property (Warhammer Fantasy) which was already a grim, dark and dirty fantasy setting, taken into Outer Space. It is a satire/homage to a staggering number of sci-fi and fantasy sources, borrows heavily from the works of Michael Moorcock, and has (had) its tongue quite firmly planted in its cheek.

What Orientalism exists in 40K is a Westerners POV. Rather than see a staggering variety of different cultures, it's boiled down into a handful of tropes that are applied across the entire region. Not surprisingly, this is exactly how it was handled in Warhammer Fantasy, too, with the Dragon Emperor.

@Deadshot:

Naw you jive. Chaos is meant for good. Chaos will get rid of your stupid communism, your slowed (filters are there, meant to say re-tar) democracy, and your dumb monarchy.

Chaos is freedom. You jsut need to learn how to use it, appreciate it.

It can smell your fear, so you better not be scared. Work with it and become one with your own soul.

Or end up a flesh-sheathe for a Keeper of Secrets. Could go either way.

I wouldn't say Chaos is freedom, it might allow you to do acts that you wouldn't be able to do usually, but those acts are because you are required by your patron(s) to do so.

If your seen to not be taking skulls, Khorne will send one of his minions to turn yours into its new piss bucket.

On whether or not it's good, it all depends on how it gets used I guess. Laeran has been pointed out as a Chaos culture that seemed to have thrived, you could say the same for Nurth, Davin, 63:19, Chaos worlds that were cool beans before the Imperium came a knocking. So I guess it could be good. Or you have what happens when Chaos gets angry.

A good character to use as a point of reference would be Quixos from the Eisenhorn series. Wanted to use Chaos against Chaos but it eventually led to him falling.

This post is the route to heresy.
You can try but in the end chaos always wins., you may start with good intentions bit the road just keeps getting ng darker.

Yeah, no.

Chaos is emotion unbound, and in any other setting that would be morally and ethically neutral, but this is Warhammer 40,000.

Here, the emotions of Hope, Acceptance, Courage, and Love are just as evil as emotions like Betrayal, Despair, Hate, and Greed. No matter how positive something might seem here in the Material Universe, in The Warp it has long since been twisted and distorted into a corrupt mockery of whatever it was before. There are no limits to the Imagination, and the Warp is Imagination. Everything in it is exaggerated, it's defining features ballooned to infinite proportions. Chaos takes everything and makes it wrong, no matter what it once was. Any Daemonic manifestation of a positive emotion that could have been benevolent to Mankind has long since been annihilated by The Ruinous Powers.

This is a reality built upon corruption and madness. There is a god in the machine, and it actively hates you and all you stand for.

By Wyzilla's own signature, Chaos is good and the Imperium is evil - after all, Chaos represents freedom to improve yourself (knowledge), while the Imperium represents holding to what you believe and denying that which is different (ignorance).

The 40K universe is largely drawn from the worldview of the Dark Ages as imagined by British game designers.

No, you can't use Chaos for good. That's because the model for Chaos is the Devil. You cannot manipulate the Devil or use him for good. He will corrupt you and you are damned for even thinking about it.