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 Wyzilla wrote:

 Bludbaff wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except the IOM still fails at that aspect for how it treats its own species. It's much better to be an Eldar on a Craftworld than it is to be a human in the Imperium.

And how is it to be a human on a Craftworld? Dead, huh? Well that sucks. Allow me to reiterate that I don't care what happens to Eldar, because I am not an Eldar. I am a human, and I think it's nice for humans to survive. The Imperium is the only organization that can manage that. It's utterly terrible, but as long as humanity survives it's possible that things can improve in the future.

Which is irrelevant. The point is that the Eldar are the best faction by their own morality, because they don't treat their species like fodder or slaves. The Imperium meanwhile treats their own species as nothing better than a currency to be bartered with the reaper.

that's cause the Eldar are slowly dying out. they can't afford to sacrifice lives. meanwhile with regard to humanity, Lives are cheap. they can sacrifice thousands and not even notice it. and if that's the case you could argue the morality of that. if 100 men's sacrifice can save millions, shouldn't the state sacrifice those 100?

that's kind of the thing, you judge the Eldar by accepting their own particular morality, but you may wanna consider the Imperium's as well.

the IoM very much follows the "needs of the many" in it's decision making

So, if I understand correctly, I believe the Imperium is better because it is the only way humanity can survive, and you think the Eldar are better because they're nice to each other while treating humans as tools to be discarded when their usefulness ends. Again, I'm more concerned about the survival of humanity than whether a bunch of aliens invite each other to their sleepovers and decorate each other's diaries with Lisa Frank stickers.

Anyway, your argument makes zero sense because there are at least four different factions within the race with vastly different moral standards. If you restrict it to Craftworld Eldar, then I get to cherry-pick the parts of the Imperium that don't suck (Ultramar, for example).


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And if you want to get into "they're the best by their own morality" then I think Daemons and Orks probably win that one.

I think that I'd place the Imperium below Chaos in terms of "evilness" (insofar that we can denote pseudo-forces of nature as evil). While the Imperium has no qualms about committing atrocities, they're not doing them just because they enjoy it. Chaos, on the other hand, will actively aim to carry out a colourful variety of atrocities as their main objective.

But yeah, in the grand scheme of 40K, the Imperium is certainly not the lesser evil.

 Wyzilla wrote:
I'd consider Craftworld Eldar to be the lesser of all evils

I think I can agree with this. What they have over the Tau in this regard is their isolationist tendancies. While the Tau aim to subvert and ultimately convert everybody within arm's reach (and they're quite willing to use underhand methods to do this), the Eldar are chiefly concerned with their own welfare, and only mess with others if they have to. Basically, the former's idealogy demands that they uproot other groups, the latter doesn't have that as their main concern.

Valena wrote:

Turning them into brainwashed killing machines is still pretty evil.

Except that Ratlings aren't brainwashed killing machines. They're cooks and black marketeers who occasionally can't wriggle out of being pressed into service as snipers. :p

IIRC, it's mentioned in a few sources that Ratlings are notorious for stealing things from Guardsmen and such, so they can be pretty unruly even when pressed into service. So I doubt that the Imperium is brainwashing them all that hard, if at all

Granted, they are being forced into military service, though the Imperium's situation being what it is, drafting people is understandable.

 Bludbaff wrote:
So, if I understand correctly, I believe the Imperium is better because it is the only way humanity can survive, and you think the Eldar are better because they're nice to each other while treating humans as tools to be discarded when their usefulness ends. Again, I'm more concerned about the survival of humanity than whether a bunch of aliens invite each other to their sleepovers and decorate each other's diaries with Lisa Frank stickers.

Anyway, your argument makes zero sense because there are at least four different factions within the race with vastly different moral standards. If you restrict it to Craftworld Eldar, then I get to cherry-pick the parts of the Imperium that don't suck (Ultramar, for example).


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And if you want to get into "they're the best by their own morality" then I think Daemons and Orks probably win that one.

You need to eliminate your bias. View each faction as being a civilian in it to see which one is the best. Not from your viewpoint as a human.

I don't think the imperium is the lesser evil, so much as it is the human evil. Every other alien race is awful to everyone else who's not also them, and chaos is really only good for chaos, likewise.

As such, the imperium is more the evil you understand, rather than the evil that you don't.

Plus, at least you're of the correct race, so you won't wind up in a tau concentration camp or ripped apart by orks right away. Things might even end up pretty okay, if you play your cards right.

I hate the Imperium, through and through. They hate everyone who isn't human, kill countless of their own, and worship a dead man. I'm good, thanks.

The alternative being...?

Oh Imperium of man.

Without the widespread use of computers that we have today (I know they have cogitators but they dont seem as prevelant or as usefull as our computers) so alot of the work has do be done by humans. Humans also make mistakes, especially when doing mindless repetitive tasks so you need more humans to make sure the mistakes are drowned out in a see of [insert opposite of mistakes here]

I like to think at the lower echelons of mankinds labour, you are so numb to any kind of stimulus (with your 1 day off a year) that most workers are just short of mindless robots with a libido. Although I could do with someone pointing me in the direction of some fluff here. Education is pretty much non existent, you are born, you grow old enough to work, you work, you die. Generations of this would surley cause most workers to be little more than cattle. I imagine life as a worker in the imperium is no different to working in a sweatshop in our era, except the pay is worse.

PDF, Militarum, Navy, Adepta. Compared to the countless trillions of imperial "blue collar" workers, they are lucky to have the differing life they have.

You also need to remember that alot of the martial law that is imposed is their to prevent the spread of chaos.

The Imperium isnt necessarily bad or evil. But its so vast and backward (technology wise) that alot of humans will have to suffer the lives they do, not knowing any other way. Worshiping the emperor is all they have (and is it really that different from alot of religions in the 20th century? Worshiping a being you have never seen?)

You have to ignore the fluff and just be a chaos fanboy to say that the Imperium is more evil than EVIL incarnate.

You literally have to ignore all of the fluff you have read.

How many stories are there about how the chaos gods take pleasure in fething their own followers? They are literally the physical manifestation of all of the worst parts of humanity, as evil as Ted Bundy, Fred West, and anybody else you can name.

The Imperium is fethed up, but clearly it isn't ALL evil, because plenty of Imperial citizens are good and noble and decent.

And not just a few, with a population of trillions, surely that means there are billions of good and noble people, that love their families, and work hard, and try not to harm other people.

The fact that people constantly use the word Mary-Sue when talking about many of the servants answers this question very neatly.

Of course it is the lesser of two-evils. Its probably not that far removed from earth today.. really fething horrible fethers in charge, plenty of decent ordinary people.

 Troike wrote:

I think I can agree with this. What they have over the Tau in this regard is their isolationist tendancies. While the Tau aim to subvert and ultimately convert everybody within arm's reach (and they're quite willing to use underhand methods to do this), the Eldar are chiefly concerned with their own welfare, and only mess with others if they have to. Basically, the former's idealogy demands that they uproot other groups, the latter doesn't have that as their main concern.

The Eldar redirected a Tyranid hive fleet into human-occupied space... which is pointedly worse than anything the Tau have ever done to the Imperium. Isolationist my ass.

For humans, yes. Even the Tau don't think of humans as really equal, preferring to keep non-Tau subservient to the Tau.

Chaos doesn't even come in to the equation; they are downright brutal and evil to their own people in ways that make the Imperium look like "the good guys" by comparison.

 Melissia wrote:
For humans, yes. Even the Tau don't think of humans as really equal, preferring to keep non-Tau subservient to the Tau.

Tau treat human auxiliary forces (and Kroot and Vespid and...) better than humans treat their own troopers.

'Good but less-than-awesome' is better than 'everyone is dirt.'

Look at the Death Corps of Krieg and ask yourself, "Is this better than being under Tau rule?"

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
For humans, yes. Even the Tau don't think of humans as really equal, preferring to keep non-Tau subservient to the Tau.

Tau treat human auxiliary forces (and Kroot and Vespid and...) better than humans treat their own troopers.

'Good but less-than-awesome' is better than 'everyone is dirt.'

Look at the Death Corps of Krieg and ask yourself, "Is this better than being under Tau rule?"

Yes, but then compare them to the Elysian Drop Troops, who are well fed, well trained, and exceedingly well equipped. Elysians are wealthy, with a very good quality of life up until they parachute on an ork's head and die of impalement.

Tell me if that is worse than being a second-class citizen who never gets quite access to the good stuff and is automatically volunteered for the suicide missions 'cause you're not a Tau.

If the Tau empire was as big as the Imperium, there would be a Death Korps of Luhua.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Troike wrote:

I think I can agree with this. What they have over the Tau in this regard is their isolationist tendancies. While the Tau aim to subvert and ultimately convert everybody within arm's reach (and they're quite willing to use underhand methods to do this), the Eldar are chiefly concerned with their own welfare, and only mess with others if they have to. Basically, the former's idealogy demands that they uproot other groups, the latter doesn't have that as their main concern.

The Eldar redirected a Tyranid hive fleet into human-occupied space... which is pointedly worse than anything the Tau have ever done to the Imperium. Isolationist my ass.

Yes, they did that in order to preserve themselves (IIRC). It was a pretty isolationist move in that it kept them from having the 'Nids pay them a visit.

For me, the key point here is that the Eldar, at the moment, aren't too concerned about what the humans or most others are doing and would probably be fine with them continuing to go on as long as they didn't threaten the Eldar. The Tau, however, ultimately want to see the Imperium and any other powers dismantled and assimilated into their own empire.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Tau treat human auxiliary forces (and Kroot and Vespid and...) better than humans treat their own troopers.

Probably. But if you're somebody who doesn't like the idea of living under Tau rule for whatever reason, you'll most likely "disappear". The Tau are very willing to do bad things when it suits them, they're just very good at putting up a nice front. But, ultimately, they want everybody conforming to their ideology and living under their rule.

 Melissia wrote:
For humans, yes. Even the Tau don't think of humans as really equal, preferring to keep non-Tau subservient to the Tau.

Chaos doesn't even come in to the equation; they are downright brutal and evil to their own people in ways that make the Imperium look like "the good guys" by comparison.

I believe Chaos just hates mortals period, but they need their mortal forces in order to actually affect the material universe which breeds even more contempt.

Then again, it has been said that in order for the Ruinous Powers to exist, they need mortals to exist so they can feed off their emotions. Sort of like " I HATE you and I want you dead, but I need you alive so I can stay alive myself."

The Imperium only came into being because of chaos. Before chaos, the human race was just the human race. Many smaller factions of itself across the stars. I think we even had decent relationships with some of the more civilized xenos.

The Imperium isn't really evil, it's just ignorant and doing what it must to survive in these times. It's stance against xenos is based on past events where humanity has been lied too, enslaved, and devoured. So overall, it's evils of the universe that's shaped them. They're no more evil than anyone else in these chaos filled times, they're probably just one of the most ignorant.

Ugh my sentences.

I doubt Chaos would have cared at all about Humans if the Eldar had not destroyed themselves creating Slaanesh and forced Chaos to look for new sources of emotions to feed on.

The Orks don't draw power from the Warp and Chaos has nothing to tempt the Orks with that the Orks don't already have. Tau don't have psykers or use the Warp. Eldar and Dark Eldar are too few in number to make a difference and Slaanesh nabs them the second their souls enter the Warp.

Other than the Emperor no one even knew Chaos existed until the Heresy.

At what point, Bob, does the choice to use murder squads and ruthless oppression for survival become evil?

Anyway, there are actually quite a few well-rounded, civilised cultures inside the Eye, such as the Q'sal Hegemony (or whatever its called). It's basically Tizca reborn, only run by cultists instead of Marines and without the Psychneuin.

EmpNortonII wrote:Tau treat human auxiliary forces (and Kroot and Vespid and...) better than humans treat their own troopers.

Tau treat useful warriors well enough. Everyone else winds up in a forced labor camp.

Which is going to be worse than at least being enslaved by other humans who are subject to basic instincts such as empathy.

mattyrm wrote: You literally have to ignore all of the fluff you have read.

lol. Including all of the fluff where chaos is the only organization in the galaxy that cares about civil liberties?

Oh wait, that's just the fluff you have to ignore to think that chaos is nothing but evil incarnate.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
'Good but less-than-awesome' is better than 'everyone is dirt.'

At least in the Imperium, humans can be something other than slaves. The same cannot be said of the Tau Empire.


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 Ailaros wrote:
lol. Including all of the fluff where chaos is the only organization in the galaxy that cares about civil liberties?

Said lore is directly contradicted by numerous examples of Chaos-endorsed tyrants and mass murderers.

Chaos doesn't give a gak about civil liberties or the lives of the individuals that worship it.

 Ailaros wrote:
Including all of the fluff where chaos is the only organization in the galaxy that cares about civil liberties?

Chaos cares nothing for civil liberties, and actively takes freedom away from people. You will have your mind and body twisted to the whims of the Chaos gods, you will be punished if you try to deviate from what the Chaos gods want, your soul will be bound to the Chaos gods and go to feed them after you die. That's to say nothing of the assorted powerful lunatics under the banner of Chaos who are free to oppress you as they please.

 Troike wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Including all of the fluff where chaos is the only organization in the galaxy that cares about civil liberties?

Chaos cares nothing for civil liberties, and actively takes freedom away from people. You will have your mind and body twisted to the whims of the Chaos gods, you will be punished if you try to deviate from what the Chaos gods want, your soul will be bound to the Chaos gods and go to feed them after you die. That's to say nothing of the assorted powerful lunatics under the banner of Chaos who are free to oppress you as they please.

Chaos is a mixed bag to be sure, but in the end it's just that; a mixed bag. There are the most hellish hells, the creepy not-so-nice places, the brutal dictatorships, the wonderful lands of wish-fulfillment, and then just the random worlds like what we have here today.

It's... Chaos. Anything and everything is there. I mean sure, some god or passing band of Marines (or demons) might decide that your world is a little too peaceful and come down to play, but up until that point you've something of a 50/50 chance to live on a world which is way nicer than one under Imperial rule.

Fluff wise humans are treated very well in tau empire even allowing them to keep lasguns for protection if they needed them, and don't forget the first humans that joined the tau empire did so peacefully, as they saw the benefits of living under the tau empire instead of the Imperium of man, it wasn't until after the Damocles crusade that human worlds started resisting because they were more afraid of what the Imperium would do to them instead of the Tau, Gue'vesa even hold high positions in the Tau Empire and are allowed to still worship the God Emperor if they choose, while in the Imperium of man you have to worship him. Tau putting humans into forced labour camps also makes no sense, as humans would be able to fill roles in all the four main castes: water - as diplomats and trader, Earth - as farmers and engineers, Fire - as warriors and Air - as messengers and naval personal, the only chance the tau have is if they fully accept Gue'vesa so that they have the numbers to expend outside of their corner of the galaxy. Also at least the tau except other alien races into their culture such as Kroot, Vespid and Tarrelians which would be inconceivable to the Imperium. Also the Tau Codex clearly states that they respect all life and don't waste military resources even programming their drones to fall back when out matched, so the Tau wouldn't use Gue'vesa as Cannon Folder like the Imperium does which their soldiers as human life in the Imperium is the cheapest resource while in the Tau Empire it is actually considered of worth.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Troike wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Including all of the fluff where chaos is the only organization in the galaxy that cares about civil liberties?

Chaos cares nothing for civil liberties, and actively takes freedom away from people. You will have your mind and body twisted to the whims of the Chaos gods, you will be punished if you try to deviate from what the Chaos gods want, your soul will be bound to the Chaos gods and go to feed them after you die. That's to say nothing of the assorted powerful lunatics under the banner of Chaos who are free to oppress you as they please.

Chaos is a mixed bag to be sure, but in the end it's just that; a mixed bag. There are the most hellish hells, the creepy not-so-nice places, the brutal dictatorships, the wonderful lands of wish-fulfillment, and then just the random worlds like what we have here today.

It's... Chaos. Anything and everything is there. I mean sure, some god or passing band of Marines (or demons) might decide that your world is a little too peaceful and come down to play, but up until that point you've something of a 50/50 chance to live on a world which is way nicer than one under Imperial rule.

The very same thing can be said of the Imperium, though. Not every Imperial world is run like the Third Reich. We're offered plenty of glimpses of planets where life really isn't any different than what we'd see in any western civilization in the 21st century, apart from some jumped-up tech in some areas (like hover-cars).


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 Vespid wrote:
Fluff wise humans are treated very well in tau empire even allowing them to keep lasguns for protection if they needed them, and don't forget the first humans that joined the tau empire did so peacefully, as they saw the benefits of living under the tau empire instead of the Imperium of man, it wasn't until after the Damocles crusade that human worlds started resisting because they were more afraid of what the Imperium would do to them instead of the Tau, Gue'vesa even hold high positions in the Tau Empire and are allowed to still worship the God Emperor if they choose, while in the Imperium of man you have to worship him. Tau putting humans into forced labour camps also makes no sense, as humans would be able to fill roles in all the four main castes: water - as diplomats and trader, Earth - as farmers and engineers, Fire - as warriors and Air - as messengers and naval personal, the only chance the tau have is if they fully accept Gue'vesa so that they have the numbers to expend outside of their corner of the galaxy. Also at least the tau except other alien races into their culture such as Kroot, Vespid and Tarrelians which would be inconceivable to the Imperium. Also the Tau Codex clearly states that they respect all life and don't waste military resources even programming their drones to fall back when out matched, so the Tau wouldn't use Gue'vesa as Cannon Folder like the Imperium does which their soldiers as human life in the Imperium is the cheapest resource while in the Tau Empire it is actually considered of worth.

Tau fluff has changed. Humans are not members of a Caste, and so get none of the benefits of being of a Caste. They're grunt labor or disposable soldiers. Also, if you question the Tau, you get disappeared, as if the Tau were Red China or the USSR.

A change for the better if you ask me. every other faction in 40k has a definate dark side, no reason the Tau shouldn't

This thread made me think of the Horus Heresy book Legion.

I think the Imperium's actions give man a fighting chance in a universe that knows only war. So, to answer the question is really to ask whether you are rooting for mankind or not.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Chaos is a mixed bag to be sure, but in the end it's just that; a mixed bag.

...Is it, though? Come to think of it, have we seen any instances of people living under Chaos rule where they aren't as bad off as they would be on a bad Imperial world, if not worse off thanks to having lunatics in charge and evil gods having an eye on their souls? And then there's the issue that the citizens would likely be forced to convert to worshiping Chaos, which brings with it all manner of mutation, insanity and risks. Say what you like about living under Imperial rule, but it won't randomly mutate your body or make you want to murder your family.

Well... environmental pollutants can cause mutations, too, and there's probably something to be said for the stress of life in a Hive World and homicide rates...

... but, thing is, not every Imperial world is a hellhole, either.