Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

.

The Imperium can be unfathomably cruel, but it does contain many worlds that are relatively peaceful and pleasant because of the defensive efforts of the Guard, Navy, Space Marines and Inquisition. Correct me if I'm wrong, but worlds ruled by the forces of chaos are almost universally crap places to live. Given the choice is between living in a Nightmarish Dystopia, and living in Literally Hell... I'll take the dystopia, thank you. At least I'll be oppressed by the boot of a human arbites rather than a daemon.

Both are absolutely terrible choices. Unless I knew I could get recognition and climb up the ranks of chaos without becoming a spawn, I'd, usually, rather become an Imperial citizens. There are still worlds that are peaceful if, albiet barbaric or dystopian. As per chaos, it's just far too random. Your planet might be peaceful before suddenly being ravaged, or it might truly be a hellscape more terrifying than the worst death world, or it might be an odd world with creepy bits but rather pleasant, or it might be an absolutely magnificient place. All shapes by the wills of former mortals or entities of indescribable intellect.

That, and DanielBeaver's point. It'd be more preferable to be under the foot of another human than some eldricht abomination whatever. (I would however argue that in the grand scheme of things, an Imperial victory would. obviously, be most advantageous to humankind. Subject to Chaos means that every possibility will occur from possibly considered benevolent, to ambivalent, to malevolent. Sometimes it will dramatically shift between the three within a few seconds or even thousands of years. It is chaos after all. The Imperium? Well they might suck now, but at least if they win out, society has a higher chance of getting better for all)

Chaos can't be evil, in the same way gravity can not be evil. Chaos is a force of nature, it is not evil, but only chaotic. Followers of Chaos are a different matter however, lots of really mean folks there. Both the Imperium and most followers of Chaos are a classical example of either "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" or "If you gaze into the abyss for too long, the abyss also gazes into you".
So while arguments can be made that both sides are truly evil, arguments against that can also be made for both sides.
My opinion is that in the end, the Imperium is the lesser of the two evils, because it commits its atrocities in order to protect mankind as a whole, while Chaos commits atrocities for no real purpose at all except sometimes for individual advancement. Khorne kills for the sake of killing, Tzeentch kills for the sake of change, Nurgle kills for the sake of causing despair, Slaanesh kills for the sake of pleasure. The Imperium kills for the sake of saving the Human species.

The universe isn't Imperium or Chaos. Eldar and Tau have a chunk of the stars to call their own and the Segmentum Obscura has uncharted regions far from the touch of any empire. So is the Imperium the lesser if TWO evils, yes, but I'd rather live under the gentle rule of the Tau or some Eldar, not all but some. But ideally, a world where the Imperium is a religion very far away and humanity takes care of itself in a simple and realistic way deep in the Segmentum Obscura where the biggest threat is a rogue criminal that would likely never be seen by the average human.

Eldar (presumably you're talking about Craftworld Eldar) live in their own hell. The amount of discipline and mental fortitude it takes to follow the paths to such a narrow degree is something a normal human is normally incapable of, I think.

I'm not aware of any case of any humans living under their "gentle rule" in the fluff, either. I doubt such a thing would be possible even if the Eldar didn't consider humans to be mere monkeys, given the Eldar lifestyle. A human living a remotely human lifestyle among Eldar would actually be a danger to them in the same way Eldar corsair lifestyles can corrupt them if Eldar corsairs visit a craftworld.

.....although in terms of EVIL, Eldar (craftworld) probably are relatiely less evil (besides the whole fantastic racism thing) by most standards of good and evil. They are not an option to humans, though. At all.

I'm pretty sure one of the only reasons the Tau are able to survive without being as "evil" as other factions is because they aren't that big yet. Try expanding their Empire to a point where it sits on 10,000 years of spaghetti beaurocracy assaulted from within and without by all those crazy xenos and chaos forces and trying to deal with the issue of galaxy-spanning long-distance communications and then we could see just how evil they'd have to become to survive.

The same applies to Craftworld Eldar, actually. We all know what happened when THEY had a galaxy spanning empire....

Tau are the least of the evils. Unlike other factions they're pragmatic enough to understand that absorbing a conquered enemy and adding their strength to your empire is better than just slaughtering everything in your path. Humanity under the Tau would be in a submissive position, but at least it would be one much closer to modern standards of morality than the Imperium.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I'm pretty sure one of the only reasons the Tau are able to survive without being as "evil" as other factions is because they aren't that big yet. Try expanding their Empire to a point where it sits on 10,000 years of spaghetti beaurocracy assaulted from within and without by all those crazy xenos and chaos forces and trying to deal with the issue of galaxy-spanning long-distance communications and then we could see just how evil they'd have to become to survive.

I don't think this is accurate at all. The Imperium's evils are some of its biggest weaknesses, remove them and it would have a better chance of success. A galaxy-spanning Tau empire wouldn't share those same weaknesses because the Tau don't have the same deliberate ignorance and religious zealotry.

I'd consider Craftworld Eldar to be the lesser of all evils, considering they actually treat their own species well and don't resort to slavery or any of the other and numerous crimes against humanity that the Imperium practices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Tau are the least of the evils. Unlike other factions they're pragmatic enough to understand that absorbing a conquered enemy and adding their strength to your empire is better than just slaughtering everything in your path. Humanity under the Tau would be in a submissive position, but at least it would be one much closer to modern standards of morality than the Imperium.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I'm pretty sure one of the only reasons the Tau are able to survive without being as "evil" as other factions is because they aren't that big yet. Try expanding their Empire to a point where it sits on 10,000 years of spaghetti beaurocracy assaulted from within and without by all those crazy xenos and chaos forces and trying to deal with the issue of galaxy-spanning long-distance communications and then we could see just how evil they'd have to become to survive.

I don't think this is accurate at all. The Imperium's evils are some of its biggest weaknesses, remove them and it would have a better chance of success. A galaxy-spanning Tau empire wouldn't share those same weaknesses because the Tau don't have the same deliberate ignorance and religious zealotry.

I'm pretty sure current Tau fluff points to the Tau empire being the mindless puppets of the Ethereals and that they practice ethnic cleansing of human populations in their empire.

The thing about the Imperium is that it's unimaginably cruel, but it's also the only thing keeping humanity from annihilation. Call me a species chauvinist, but I think the survival of humanity trumps pretty much any other concern. While the Tau may generally treat humans better than the average Imperial citizen, they haven't had much experience with humanity. Specifically, since they're completely blind to the Warp, they can't deal with the existential threat posed by emerging psykers. It seems to me that if the Tau understood the danger of humanity's psychic talent, they'd probably just exterminate any humans they could to protect the Greater Good.

 Bludbaff wrote:
The thing about the Imperium is that it's unimaginably cruel, but it's also the only thing keeping humanity from annihilation. Call me a species chauvinist, but I think the survival of humanity trumps pretty much any other concern. While the Tau may generally treat humans better than the average Imperial citizen, they haven't had much experience with humanity. Specifically, since they're completely blind to the Warp, they can't deal with the existential threat posed by emerging psykers. It seems to me that if the Tau understood the danger of humanity's psychic talent, they'd probably just exterminate any humans they could to protect the Greater Good.

Except the Eldar do the exact same thing for their species, making them just as good as the Imperium. Only, they're better because they don't treat their own species like a currency.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Tau are the least of the evils. Unlike other factions they're pragmatic enough to understand that absorbing a conquered enemy and adding their strength to your empire is better than just slaughtering everything in your path. Humanity under the Tau would be in a submissive position, but at least it would be one much closer to modern standards of morality than the Imperium.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I'm pretty sure one of the only reasons the Tau are able to survive without being as "evil" as other factions is because they aren't that big yet. Try expanding their Empire to a point where it sits on 10,000 years of spaghetti beaurocracy assaulted from within and without by all those crazy xenos and chaos forces and trying to deal with the issue of galaxy-spanning long-distance communications and then we could see just how evil they'd have to become to survive.

I don't think this is accurate at all. The Imperium's evils are some of its biggest weaknesses, remove them and it would have a better chance of success. A galaxy-spanning Tau empire wouldn't share those same weaknesses because the Tau don't have the same deliberate ignorance and religious zealotry.

I'm pretty sure current Tau fluff points to the Tau empire being the mindless puppets of the Ethereals and that they practice ethnic cleansing of human populations in their empire.

They obey the ethereals, but no ethnic cleansing. It's a waste of recourses, when you can have them working for you instead, and what would the point be?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Tau are the least of the evils. Unlike other factions they're pragmatic enough to understand that absorbing a conquered enemy and adding their strength to your empire is better than just slaughtering everything in your path. Humanity under the Tau would be in a submissive position, but at least it would be one much closer to modern standards of morality than the Imperium.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I'm pretty sure one of the only reasons the Tau are able to survive without being as "evil" as other factions is because they aren't that big yet. Try expanding their Empire to a point where it sits on 10,000 years of spaghetti beaurocracy assaulted from within and without by all those crazy xenos and chaos forces and trying to deal with the issue of galaxy-spanning long-distance communications and then we could see just how evil they'd have to become to survive.

I don't think this is accurate at all. The Imperium's evils are some of its biggest weaknesses, remove them and it would have a better chance of success. A galaxy-spanning Tau empire wouldn't share those same weaknesses because the Tau don't have the same deliberate ignorance and religious zealotry.

I'm pretty sure current Tau fluff points to the Tau empire being the mindless puppets of the Ethereals and that they practice ethnic cleansing of human populations in their empire.

They obey the ethereals, but no ethnic cleansing. It's a waste of recourses, when you can have them working for you instead, and what would the point be?

Yet they sterilize humans and treat all non-tau as second class citizens.

Maybe the Tau's version of communism is secretly just as oppressive as Stalin's.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Tau are the least of the evils. Unlike other factions they're pragmatic enough to understand that absorbing a conquered enemy and adding their strength to your empire is better than just slaughtering everything in your path. Humanity under the Tau would be in a submissive position, but at least it would be one much closer to modern standards of morality than the Imperium.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I'm pretty sure one of the only reasons the Tau are able to survive without being as "evil" as other factions is because they aren't that big yet. Try expanding their Empire to a point where it sits on 10,000 years of spaghetti beaurocracy assaulted from within and without by all those crazy xenos and chaos forces and trying to deal with the issue of galaxy-spanning long-distance communications and then we could see just how evil they'd have to become to survive.

I don't think this is accurate at all. The Imperium's evils are some of its biggest weaknesses, remove them and it would have a better chance of success. A galaxy-spanning Tau empire wouldn't share those same weaknesses because the Tau don't have the same deliberate ignorance and religious zealotry.

I'm pretty sure current Tau fluff points to the Tau empire being the mindless puppets of the Ethereals and that they practice ethnic cleansing of human populations in their empire.

They obey the ethereals, but no ethnic cleansing. It's a waste of recourses, when you can have them working for you instead, and what would the point be?

Yet they sterilize humans and treat all non-tau as second class citizens.

Second class, yes. Sterilize, no.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Tau are the least of the evils. Unlike other factions they're pragmatic enough to understand that absorbing a conquered enemy and adding their strength to your empire is better than just slaughtering everything in your path. Humanity under the Tau would be in a submissive position, but at least it would be one much closer to modern standards of morality than the Imperium.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I'm pretty sure one of the only reasons the Tau are able to survive without being as "evil" as other factions is because they aren't that big yet. Try expanding their Empire to a point where it sits on 10,000 years of spaghetti beaurocracy assaulted from within and without by all those crazy xenos and chaos forces and trying to deal with the issue of galaxy-spanning long-distance communications and then we could see just how evil they'd have to become to survive.

I don't think this is accurate at all. The Imperium's evils are some of its biggest weaknesses, remove them and it would have a better chance of success. A galaxy-spanning Tau empire wouldn't share those same weaknesses because the Tau don't have the same deliberate ignorance and religious zealotry.

I'm pretty sure current Tau fluff points to the Tau empire being the mindless puppets of the Ethereals and that they practice ethnic cleansing of human populations in their empire.

They obey the ethereals, but no ethnic cleansing. It's a waste of recourses, when you can have them working for you instead, and what would the point be?

Yet they sterilize humans and treat all non-tau as second class citizens.

Second class, yes. Sterilize, no.

By Dawn of War Dark Crusade, they do.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Tau are the least of the evils. Unlike other factions they're pragmatic enough to understand that absorbing a conquered enemy and adding their strength to your empire is better than just slaughtering everything in your path. Humanity under the Tau would be in a submissive position, but at least it would be one much closer to modern standards of morality than the Imperium.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I'm pretty sure one of the only reasons the Tau are able to survive without being as "evil" as other factions is because they aren't that big yet. Try expanding their Empire to a point where it sits on 10,000 years of spaghetti beaurocracy assaulted from within and without by all those crazy xenos and chaos forces and trying to deal with the issue of galaxy-spanning long-distance communications and then we could see just how evil they'd have to become to survive.

I don't think this is accurate at all. The Imperium's evils are some of its biggest weaknesses, remove them and it would have a better chance of success. A galaxy-spanning Tau empire wouldn't share those same weaknesses because the Tau don't have the same deliberate ignorance and religious zealotry.

I'm pretty sure current Tau fluff points to the Tau empire being the mindless puppets of the Ethereals and that they practice ethnic cleansing of human populations in their empire.

They obey the ethereals, but no ethnic cleansing. It's a waste of recourses, when you can have them working for you instead, and what would the point be?

Yet they sterilize humans and treat all non-tau as second class citizens.

Second class, yes. Sterilize, no.

By Dawn of War Dark Crusade, they do.

And DoW is not really the epitome of canon is it? Besides, that's not even the 'canon' ending. The 'canon' ending is that the SM's win. I turn to the tau codex that says that humans are better off under tau rule.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Tau are the least of the evils. Unlike other factions they're pragmatic enough to understand that absorbing a conquered enemy and adding their strength to your empire is better than just slaughtering everything in your path. Humanity under the Tau would be in a submissive position, but at least it would be one much closer to modern standards of morality than the Imperium.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I'm pretty sure one of the only reasons the Tau are able to survive without being as "evil" as other factions is because they aren't that big yet. Try expanding their Empire to a point where it sits on 10,000 years of spaghetti beaurocracy assaulted from within and without by all those crazy xenos and chaos forces and trying to deal with the issue of galaxy-spanning long-distance communications and then we could see just how evil they'd have to become to survive.

I don't think this is accurate at all. The Imperium's evils are some of its biggest weaknesses, remove them and it would have a better chance of success. A galaxy-spanning Tau empire wouldn't share those same weaknesses because the Tau don't have the same deliberate ignorance and religious zealotry.

I'm pretty sure current Tau fluff points to the Tau empire being the mindless puppets of the Ethereals and that they practice ethnic cleansing of human populations in their empire.

They obey the ethereals, but no ethnic cleansing. It's a waste of recourses, when you can have them working for you instead, and what would the point be?

Yet they sterilize humans and treat all non-tau as second class citizens.

Second class, yes. Sterilize, no.

By Dawn of War Dark Crusade, they do.

And DoW is not really the epitome of canon is it? Besides, that's not even the 'canon' ending. The 'canon' ending is that the SM's win. I turn to the tau codex that says that humans are better off under tau rule.

Of course they're better off, hell slavery on an American plantation farm during the 1820's would be considered "better off" than life under the Imperium.

But CWE Eldar are still better for how they treat their own.

If you ever question how evil the Imperium can be, just imagine their ships descending upon the Shire, and what would happen to those poor Hobbits...

 Valena wrote:
If you ever question how evil the Imperium can be, just imagine their ships descending upon the Shire, and what would happen to those poor Hobbits...

They'd be unlikely to be harmed, just treated as another group of Ratlings.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Valena wrote:
If you ever question how evil the Imperium can be, just imagine their ships descending upon the Shire, and what would happen to those poor Hobbits...

They'd be unlikely to be harmed, just treated as another group of Ratlings.

You don't think they'd be treated as mutants and exterminated? I rather think so.

Yes the Imperium is evil, the game comes right out and tells you this in the opening pages "It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable".

The question isn't so much "good vs evil" as "survival vs extinction" and "order vs disorder". The Imperium ensures the survival of the human species and establishes order amongst man. Insofar as the alternative to the Imperium is the madness of Chaos and extinction at the hands of rampaging Xenos and Daemons, that may make them the "Good Guys" in the eyes of some, but that's as far as it extends.

 Valena wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Valena wrote:
If you ever question how evil the Imperium can be, just imagine their ships descending upon the Shire, and what would happen to those poor Hobbits...

They'd be unlikely to be harmed, just treated as another group of Ratlings.

You don't think they'd be treated as mutants and exterminated? I rather think so.

40K already has Hobbits, and they've been around for quite a long time. Same with Dwarves, which I remember the 7th Edition actually brought back the Squats.

The question is too complex to be answered by a simple a b c.what era imperium are we talkingnabout? Pre heresy? 40k?

More importantly, who is in charge of the planet? A planet that was liberated by vulkan is very different than one liberated by curz. There were many planets where humans and smaller xenox factions lived in harmony, others where xenox enslaved them.

Chaos is a definite no go.
Xenox leaves too many variables open.
I would have to stick with the imperium i guess.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Valena wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Valena wrote:
If you ever question how evil the Imperium can be, just imagine their ships descending upon the Shire, and what would happen to those poor Hobbits...

They'd be unlikely to be harmed, just treated as another group of Ratlings.

You don't think they'd be treated as mutants and exterminated? I rather think so.

40K already has Hobbits, and they've been around for quite a long time. Same with Dwarves, which I remember the 7th Edition actually brought back the Squats.

Turning them into brainwashed killing machines is still pretty evil.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Bludbaff wrote:
The thing about the Imperium is that it's unimaginably cruel, but it's also the only thing keeping humanity from annihilation. Call me a species chauvinist, but I think the survival of humanity trumps pretty much any other concern. While the Tau may generally treat humans better than the average Imperial citizen, they haven't had much experience with humanity. Specifically, since they're completely blind to the Warp, they can't deal with the existential threat posed by emerging psykers. It seems to me that if the Tau understood the danger of humanity's psychic talent, they'd probably just exterminate any humans they could to protect the Greater Good.

Except the Eldar do the exact same thing for their species, making them just as good as the Imperium. Only, they're better because they don't treat their own species like a currency.

Well, that's all well and good, but I'm not an Eldar. I'm human (and I'll hazard a guess you are too). Thus I'm more interested in what gives humanity the best chance at survival rather than whether the Space Fruits can harvest enough unicorn farts for their sparkle party.

 Bludbaff wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Bludbaff wrote:
The thing about the Imperium is that it's unimaginably cruel, but it's also the only thing keeping humanity from annihilation. Call me a species chauvinist, but I think the survival of humanity trumps pretty much any other concern. While the Tau may generally treat humans better than the average Imperial citizen, they haven't had much experience with humanity. Specifically, since they're completely blind to the Warp, they can't deal with the existential threat posed by emerging psykers. It seems to me that if the Tau understood the danger of humanity's psychic talent, they'd probably just exterminate any humans they could to protect the Greater Good.

Except the Eldar do the exact same thing for their species, making them just as good as the Imperium. Only, they're better because they don't treat their own species like a currency.

Well, that's all well and good, but I'm not an Eldar. I'm human (and I'll hazard a guess you are too). Thus I'm more interested in what gives humanity the best chance at survival rather than whether the Space Fruits can harvest enough unicorn farts for their sparkle party.

I lol'd

 Bludbaff wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Bludbaff wrote:
The thing about the Imperium is that it's unimaginably cruel, but it's also the only thing keeping humanity from annihilation. Call me a species chauvinist, but I think the survival of humanity trumps pretty much any other concern. While the Tau may generally treat humans better than the average Imperial citizen, they haven't had much experience with humanity. Specifically, since they're completely blind to the Warp, they can't deal with the existential threat posed by emerging psykers. It seems to me that if the Tau understood the danger of humanity's psychic talent, they'd probably just exterminate any humans they could to protect the Greater Good.

Except the Eldar do the exact same thing for their species, making them just as good as the Imperium. Only, they're better because they don't treat their own species like a currency.

Well, that's all well and good, but I'm not an Eldar. I'm human (and I'll hazard a guess you are too). Thus I'm more interested in what gives humanity the best chance at survival rather than whether the Space Fruits can harvest enough unicorn farts for their sparkle party.

Except the IOM still fails at that aspect for how it treats its own species. It's much better to be an Eldar on a Craftworld than it is to be a human in the Imperium.

one of the key issues when discussing this is the question of "is it important for mankind to control it's own destiny?" if you belvie the answer is "yes" then the IoM is indeed the lesser of many evils.

if you don't partiuclarly care if Mankind controls it's own destiny, then it's a little more up for debate. that to me is the ultimate thing about the Imperium. at their heart is the belive that humanity, for it's own long term good, MUST remain in control of it's own destiny.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except the IOM still fails at that aspect for how it treats its own species. It's much better to be an Eldar on a Craftworld than it is to be a human in the Imperium.

And how is it to be a human on a Craftworld? Dead, huh? Well that sucks. Allow me to reiterate that I don't care what happens to Eldar, because I am not an Eldar. I am a human, and I think it's nice for humans to survive. The Imperium is the only organization that can manage that. It's utterly terrible, but as long as humanity survives it's possible that things can improve in the future.

 Bludbaff wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except the IOM still fails at that aspect for how it treats its own species. It's much better to be an Eldar on a Craftworld than it is to be a human in the Imperium.

And how is it to be a human on a Craftworld? Dead, huh? Well that sucks. Allow me to reiterate that I don't care what happens to Eldar, because I am not an Eldar. I am a human, and I think it's nice for humans to survive. The Imperium is the only organization that can manage that. It's utterly terrible, but as long as humanity survives it's possible that things can improve in the future.

Which is irrelevant. The point is that the Eldar are the best faction by their own morality, because they don't treat their species like fodder or slaves. The Imperium meanwhile treats their own species as nothing better than a currency to be bartered with the reaper.