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 Frankenberry wrote:
ATSKNF - as the rules would have you believe that even when faced with overwhelming firepower, casualties, or other nastiness, marines will regroup and fight on. ASTKNF is a disingenuous title for what marines do, tactical withdraw, or maybe a retreat and regroup but marines are not fearless, they're just dedicated to the cause.

Fearless - Does not understand the concept of fear, whether it be brought on be self-preservation or mystical powers, this being simply doesn't feel it.

This is what I was getting at. There are two rules for this very reason that point out that SM aren't exactly immune to fear, otherwise they would be Fearless.

 mattyrm wrote:
Ultimately, whether they feel it or not, they conquer it, and so deserve credit either way.

Well, I'd say that they do feel fear. But fear triggers the flight-or-fight response in humans, and marines are conditioned (psycho-indoctrination, hugely increased adrenaline production and possible drugs from their PA dispenser) to almost always pick the "fight" option. You would have to be majorly scary, very eloquent or both to make a marine even consider giving up instead of just falling back fighting.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Even when Curze is killing lowly Marines, they feel fear, but they don't freeze, or drop to their knees and beg, they try to kill the fether. Same goes for any of the numerous instances of rampaging Primarchs punching Space Marines heads off.

Except we DO have instances of this, Fear of Death from Typhus Plague converted many a Space Marine to Nurgle, And Space Wolves turning on their brothers and then begging before Huron Blackheart, who has many other instances of them begging to join him.

You forgot this: [citation needed]

CSM codex wrote:As the Red Corsairs' victory became inevitable, several Space Wolves turned on their fellows and threw themselves at the mercy of Blackheart. They renounced their pledges to their Chapter, Primarch and Emperor, and swore allegiance to Huron. As reward for their allegiance, Huron granted them command of the Wolf of Fenris, which is now part of the Red Corsairs' fleet.

This does not sound like fear. This sounds like 'You know, if the alternative is death, I'd rather serve Huron.' It says little about the motivations; was it fear? Or was it just the SW considering death an illogical choice, a waste?

CSM codex wrote:When Horus led his forces against Earth and the Emperor, the Death Guard's First Captain, Calas Typhon, killed the Navigator of their capital ship. Pretending that they were still loyal to the Emperor, Typhon led the Chapter's Fleet into the Warp but instead of going to Holy Terra to defend the Imperium, the ships became trapped and unable to return to Real Space. The Destroyer Hive flooded the ship while they were trapped in the Warp. The stinking pestilence flooded the gut and distended the flesh, while the Marines were blacked out the Destroyer Hive swarmed over them and laid eggs inside the sores of the Marines. Craving salvation, the Death Guard called upon Nurgle to help them. Nurgle corrupted them beyond measure, transforming them into the grotesque warriors they are now. Typhon then inherited the Destroyer Hive: having already sacrificed his soul to Nurgle. The flies entered Typhon and thus Typhus, Herald and Champion of Nurgle, was born.

Same thing here. They 'craved salvation'. That is awfully vague and does not surely indicate fear like you describe.

This does not sound like fear. This sounds like 'You know, if the alternative is death, I'd rather serve Huron.' It says little about the motivations; was it fear? Or was it just the SW considering death an illogical choice, a waste?

Same thing here. They 'craved salvation'. That is awfully vague and does not surely indicate fear like you describe.

..Are you serious? I'm having to ask because this sounds like this is reaching quite hard, considering most who cry out to Nurgle in their Fear of Death, that space wolves actually view things in a 'logical' fashion considering they are one of the most emotional chapters there is.

To put it simply, you need your own [citation needed].

Space Marines honor value to the Chapters code and to simply turn because it's "logical" would be against everything that's been instilled in them since birth, since training, beaten into their heads as they constantly pray, honor thy rites of thy chapter.

To suddenly turncoat because you view it as logical would be the most illogical thing from one of the most indoctrinated groups in 40k, especially considering Space Wolves pack mentality given towards their chapters rites, how they honor their dead and fallen with the utmost care and their almost nordic heritage of dying in a glorious battle against a powerful foe with their Saga's.

Nurgle's salvation is given to those in Despair, to those in Fear, to those who Fear Death, he blesses those who suffer and those that give in to his plagues, to suggest otherwise is quite laughable.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

This does not sound like fear. This sounds like 'You know, if the alternative is death, I'd rather serve Huron.' It says little about the motivations; was it fear? Or was it just the SW considering death an illogical choice, a waste?

Same thing here. They 'craved salvation'. That is awfully vague and does not surely indicate fear like you describe.

..Are you serious? I'm having to ask because this sounds like this is reaching quite hard, considering most who cry out to Nurgle in their Fear of Death, that space wolves actually view things in a 'logical' fashion considering they are one of the most emotional chapters there is.

To put it simply, you need your own [citation needed].

Space Marines honor value to the Chapters code and to simply turn because it's "logical" would be against everything that's been instilled in them since birth, since training, beaten into their heads as they constantly pray, honor thy rites of thy chapter.

To suddenly turncoat because you view it as logical would be the most illogical thing from one of the most indoctrinated groups in 40k.

It could have been caused by any emotion, and fear is not specifically mentioned. So no, it's just an assumption.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

This does not sound like fear. This sounds like 'You know, if the alternative is death, I'd rather serve Huron.' It says little about the motivations; was it fear? Or was it just the SW considering death an illogical choice, a waste?

Same thing here. They 'craved salvation'. That is awfully vague and does not surely indicate fear like you describe.

..Are you serious? I'm having to ask because this sounds like this is reaching quite hard, considering most who cry out to Nurgle in their Fear of Death, that space wolves actually view things in a 'logical' fashion considering they are one of the most emotional chapters there is.

To put it simply, you need your own [citation needed].

Space Marines honor value to the Chapters code and to simply turn because it's "logical" would be against everything that's been instilled in them since birth, since training, beaten into their heads as they constantly pray, honor thy rites of thy chapter.

To suddenly turncoat because you view it as logical would be the most illogical thing from one of the most indoctrinated groups in 40k.

It could have been caused by any emotion, and fear is not specifically mentioned. So no, it's just an assumption.

Updated my post a bit on some things.

What emotion could have caused them to turn to Huron Blackheart?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

What emotion could have caused them to turn to Huron Blackheart?

Exasperation at how badly written they were being as loyalists?

Irritation at being forced into the Mary Sue role against their wishes?

Or maybe they just got really, really sick of saying the word 'Wolf' every few seconds.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

What emotion could have caused them to turn to Huron Blackheart?

Exasperation at how badly written they were being as loyalists?

Irritation at being forced into the Mary Sue role against their wishes?

Or maybe they just got really, really sick of saying the word 'Wolf' every few seconds.

And then Huron trolled them at the last minute, considering it's still named with Wolf.

 welshhoppo wrote:
One word.

ATSKNF.

"Shall", not "will".

@OP of course marines feel fear, they are still men. just that they have experience and mental conditioning.

Space Marines feel fear all the time, they are just masters of controlling it. And to your point about Tarvitz running from Angron, I read that book myself. Tarvitz knew full well he couldn't defeat Angron by himself so he ran to go die with the rest of his EC battle-brothers. He wasn't really scared but he knew hurling himself onto Angrons blade wasn't going to change anything. It says specifically in one of those Salamander novels that "No man shall lay his life upon the alter of vain glory." Tarvitz is an example of that notion.

I found this quote on Lexicanum and it is I think the best way to describe how Space Marines control of fear.

"Only a madman knows no fear. A warrior knows what fear is, he feels it in his stomach, he understands fear better than any other mortal can. What makes us strong is that we have conquered fear, overcome it not once but many times, over and over again, until the process has become instinctive. but no matter how many battles you fight and how many victories you win, your fear will never completely leave you. Learn to live with that fear. Learn to master your fear. But never forget that there are things in this universe that even you cannot face and live, abominations so terrible that their very appearance will sear the flesh from your face and shrivel your eyes. Such things cannot be fought, and to confront them would be nothing but a futile waste of life. In those situations remember your vows to serve the Emperor, and remember also that you serve him best alive and not sacrificed upon the altar of vain glory."

Source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Quotes_Space_Marines#.U8fbNNLkuyU

Alpha 1 wrote:
I found this quote on Lexicanum and it is I think the best way to describe how Space Marines control of fear.

"Only a madman knows no fear. A warrior knows what fear is, he feels it in his stomach, he understands fear better than any other mortal can. What makes us strong is that we have conquered fear, overcome it not once but many times, over and over again, until the process has become instinctive. but no matter how many battles you fight and how many victories you win, your fear will never completely leave you. Learn to live with that fear. Learn to master your fear. But never forget that there are things in this universe that even you cannot face and live, abominations so terrible that their very appearance will sear the flesh from your face and shrivel your eyes. Such things cannot be fought, and to confront them would be nothing but a futile waste of life. In those situations remember your vows to serve the Emperor, and remember also that you serve him best alive and not sacrificed upon the altar of vain glory."

Source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Quotes_Space_Marines#.U8fbNNLkuyU

Yes, praise be to you alpha 1. The Emperor protects.

Its pretty much already been said but everything I've read points to SM feeling fear but (most) being hardwired respond with aggression. Ex: Night Haunter captured and held prisoner by the Fists, he lures the fists guarding him into the cell and as he kills them one screams in terror WHILE trying to kill the primarch. Not sure about huron and the sw, do sw undergo the psycho indoctrination like codex compliant chapters? I think a good way to look at the mentality of the marines is look at how child soldiers think and throw in a splash of zealotry and scifi to taste.