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Psienesis wrote: I honestly do not understand why they aren't standard issue to all non-Dev marines. A Tactical Squad would be far more tactical if it could jump to/from cover/elevations/etc to more-easily establish tactical control of the battlefield.
I believe the resources required to get that many jump packs would be far to inconvenient. I agree with you, but it would be to much of a hazard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For anyone who has played Spacemarine should know how jump packs work. They really are a "jump" pack.
And again, a terrible representation of the fluff that blows space marines waaaaay out of the water, probably isn't even canon (IIRC confirmed by the devs), and multiple examples in the fluff and RPG's against it.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that Chaos Raptors have better jump packs that allow for longer flight time, possibly infinite due to being HH tech.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Psienesis wrote: I honestly do not understand why they aren't standard issue to all non-Dev marines. A Tactical Squad would be far more tactical if it could jump to/from cover/elevations/etc to more-easily establish tactical control of the battlefield.
I believe the resources required to get that many jump packs would be far to inconvenient. I agree with you, but it would be to much of a hazard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For anyone who has played Spacemarine should know how jump packs work. They really are a "jump" pack.
And again, a terrible representation of the fluff that blows space marines waaaaay out of the water, probably isn't even canon (IIRC confirmed by the devs), and multiple examples in the fluff and RPG's against it.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that Chaos Raptors have better jump packs that allow for longer flight time, possibly infinite due to being HH tech.
In what aspect are Space Marines "blown out of the water" here? The production of jump packs for tac marines and such or the propulsion of jump packs?
And yes, I would imagine Chaos Raptors have much better flight time than a normal assault marine would.
Speaking of better technology, I am still furious that Chaos Havocs don't have plasma cannons for tabletop. I mean, wouldnt they have loads of it? I guess thats a discussion for another thread but still pisses me off.
Psienesis wrote: I honestly do not understand why they aren't standard issue to all non-Dev marines. A Tactical Squad would be far more tactical if it could jump to/from cover/elevations/etc to more-easily establish tactical control of the battlefield.
I believe the resources required to get that many jump packs would be far to inconvenient. I agree with you, but it would be to much of a hazard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For anyone who has played Spacemarine should know how jump packs work. They really are a "jump" pack.
And again, a terrible representation of the fluff that blows space marines waaaaay out of the water, probably isn't even canon (IIRC confirmed by the devs), and multiple examples in the fluff and RPG's against it.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that Chaos Raptors have better jump packs that allow for longer flight time, possibly infinite due to being HH tech.
In what aspect are Space Marines "blown out of the water" here? The production of jump packs for tac marines and such or the propulsion of jump packs?
And yes, I would imagine Chaos Raptors have much better flight time than a normal assault marine would.
Speaking of better technology, I am still furious that Chaos Havocs don't have plasma cannons for tabletop. I mean, wouldnt they have loads of it? I guess thats a discussion for another thread but still pisses me off.
Just talking about space marine in general. It's a third party product where a captain cuts through an entire WHAAGH!, kills a Warboss, kills numerous Nobs, kills tens of Chaos Space Marines, over a hundred Chaos Daemons, and kills a Daemon Prince on top of it all.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Psienesis wrote: I honestly do not understand why they aren't standard issue to all non-Dev marines. A Tactical Squad would be far more tactical if it could jump to/from cover/elevations/etc to more-easily establish tactical control of the battlefield.
I believe the resources required to get that many jump packs would be far to inconvenient. I agree with you, but it would be to much of a hazard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For anyone who has played Spacemarine should know how jump packs work. They really are a "jump" pack.
And again, a terrible representation of the fluff that blows space marines waaaaay out of the water, probably isn't even canon (IIRC confirmed by the devs), and multiple examples in the fluff and RPG's against it.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that Chaos Raptors have better jump packs that allow for longer flight time, possibly infinite due to being HH tech.
In what aspect are Space Marines "blown out of the water" here? The production of jump packs for tac marines and such or the propulsion of jump packs?
And yes, I would imagine Chaos Raptors have much better flight time than a normal assault marine would.
Speaking of better technology, I am still furious that Chaos Havocs don't have plasma cannons for tabletop. I mean, wouldnt they have loads of it? I guess thats a discussion for another thread but still pisses me off.
OT here, but asking why havocs don't have PC is like asking why CSM's don't have Land Speeders or why regular marines don't have autocannons. They're different armies.
Psienesis wrote: I honestly do not understand why they aren't standard issue to all non-Dev marines. A Tactical Squad would be far more tactical if it could jump to/from cover/elevations/etc to more-easily establish tactical control of the battlefield.
I believe the resources required to get that many jump packs would be far to inconvenient. I agree with you, but it would be to much of a hazard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For anyone who has played Spacemarine should know how jump packs work. They really are a "jump" pack.
And again, a terrible representation of the fluff that blows space marines waaaaay out of the water, probably isn't even canon (IIRC confirmed by the devs), and multiple examples in the fluff and RPG's against it.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that Chaos Raptors have better jump packs that allow for longer flight time, possibly infinite due to being HH tech.
In what aspect are Space Marines "blown out of the water" here? The production of jump packs for tac marines and such or the propulsion of jump packs?
And yes, I would imagine Chaos Raptors have much better flight time than a normal assault marine would.
Speaking of better technology, I am still furious that Chaos Havocs don't have plasma cannons for tabletop. I mean, wouldnt they have loads of it? I guess thats a discussion for another thread but still pisses me off.
OT here, but asking why havocs don't have PC is like asking why CSM's don't have Land Speeders or why regular marines don't have autocannons. They're different armies.
Yet they had plasma cannons during the Horus Heresy. Chaos Space Marine should get everything Loyalists had as of M31.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/19 21:13:31
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Psienesis wrote: I honestly do not understand why they aren't standard issue to all non-Dev marines. A Tactical Squad would be far more tactical if it could jump to/from cover/elevations/etc to more-easily establish tactical control of the battlefield.
I believe the resources required to get that many jump packs would be far to inconvenient. I agree with you, but it would be to much of a hazard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For anyone who has played Spacemarine should know how jump packs work. They really are a "jump" pack.
I'd be looking more along the lines of cheap and cheerful Elysian grav-chute insertion packs with a bit more power, just short jumps to allow increased movement and reduce the pull of gravity to allow the marine to move more quickly.
Psienesis wrote: I honestly do not understand why they aren't standard issue to all non-Dev marines. A Tactical Squad would be far more tactical if it could jump to/from cover/elevations/etc to more-easily establish tactical control of the battlefield.
I believe the resources required to get that many jump packs would be far to inconvenient. I agree with you, but it would be to much of a hazard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For anyone who has played Spacemarine should know how jump packs work. They really are a "jump" pack.
I'd be looking more along the lines of cheap and cheerful Elysian grav-chute insertion packs with a bit more power, just short jumps to allow increased movement and reduce the pull of gravity to allow the marine to move more quickly.
Psienesis wrote: I honestly do not understand why they aren't standard issue to all non-Dev marines. A Tactical Squad would be far more tactical if it could jump to/from cover/elevations/etc to more-easily establish tactical control of the battlefield.
I believe the resources required to get that many jump packs would be far to inconvenient. I agree with you, but it would be to much of a hazard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For anyone who has played Spacemarine should know how jump packs work. They really are a "jump" pack.
And again, a terrible representation of the fluff that blows space marines waaaaay out of the water, probably isn't even canon (IIRC confirmed by the devs), and multiple examples in the fluff and RPG's against it.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that Chaos Raptors have better jump packs that allow for longer flight time, possibly infinite due to being HH tech.
In what aspect are Space Marines "blown out of the water" here? The production of jump packs for tac marines and such or the propulsion of jump packs?
And yes, I would imagine Chaos Raptors have much better flight time than a normal assault marine would.
Speaking of better technology, I am still furious that Chaos Havocs don't have plasma cannons for tabletop. I mean, wouldnt they have loads of it? I guess thats a discussion for another thread but still pisses me off.
OT here, but asking why havocs don't have PC is like asking why CSM's don't have Land Speeders or why regular marines don't have autocannons. They're different armies.
Haha, is that so? Then why do SM's and CSM's both have bolters as their main weapon? What does being different armies have to do with that? Chaos Marines should have PC's. They had all the cool toys the SM's had. SM's don't use autocannons with their Chapters anymore and to use one would be heresy.
Psienesis wrote: I honestly do not understand why they aren't standard issue to all non-Dev marines. A Tactical Squad would be far more tactical if it could jump to/from cover/elevations/etc to more-easily establish tactical control of the battlefield.
I believe the resources required to get that many jump packs would be far to inconvenient. I agree with you, but it would be to much of a hazard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For anyone who has played Spacemarine should know how jump packs work. They really are a "jump" pack.
And again, a terrible representation of the fluff that blows space marines waaaaay out of the water, probably isn't even canon (IIRC confirmed by the devs), and multiple examples in the fluff and RPG's against it.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that Chaos Raptors have better jump packs that allow for longer flight time, possibly infinite due to being HH tech.
In what aspect are Space Marines "blown out of the water" here? The production of jump packs for tac marines and such or the propulsion of jump packs?
And yes, I would imagine Chaos Raptors have much better flight time than a normal assault marine would.
Speaking of better technology, I am still furious that Chaos Havocs don't have plasma cannons for tabletop. I mean, wouldnt they have loads of it? I guess thats a discussion for another thread but still pisses me off.
Just talking about space marine in general. It's a third party product where a captain cuts through an entire WHAAGH!, kills a Warboss, kills numerous Nobs, kills tens of Chaos Space Marines, over a hundred Chaos Daemons, and kills a Daemon Prince on top of it all.
I agree. In reality, Titus would have been dead half way through the game if not sooner. It was the biggest example of plot armour to ever exist. But it was a video game and I will cut it some slack, it just shouldn't be taken seriously.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/19 21:37:18
Psienesis wrote: I honestly do not understand why they aren't standard issue to all non-Dev marines. A Tactical Squad would be far more tactical if it could jump to/from cover/elevations/etc to more-easily establish tactical control of the battlefield.
I believe the resources required to get that many jump packs would be far to inconvenient. I agree with you, but it would be to much of a hazard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For anyone who has played Spacemarine should know how jump packs work. They really are a "jump" pack.
And again, a terrible representation of the fluff that blows space marines waaaaay out of the water, probably isn't even canon (IIRC confirmed by the devs), and multiple examples in the fluff and RPG's against it.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that Chaos Raptors have better jump packs that allow for longer flight time, possibly infinite due to being HH tech.
In what aspect are Space Marines "blown out of the water" here? The production of jump packs for tac marines and such or the propulsion of jump packs?
And yes, I would imagine Chaos Raptors have much better flight time than a normal assault marine would.
Speaking of better technology, I am still furious that Chaos Havocs don't have plasma cannons for tabletop. I mean, wouldnt they have loads of it? I guess thats a discussion for another thread but still pisses me off.
OT here, but asking why havocs don't have PC is like asking why CSM's don't have Land Speeders or why regular marines don't have autocannons. They're different armies.
Haha, is that so? Then why do SM's and CSM's both have bolters as their main weapon? What does being different armies have to do with that? Chaos Marines should have PC's. They had all the cool toys the SM's had. SM's don't use autocannons with their Chapters anymore and to use one would be heresy.
I talking tabletop wise, not fluff wise. It's hard to represent a fluff-accurate force with the current CSM codex. Also, I meant that whilst they're similar armies in all other aspects, gaming wise they're different armies. I would like to see Plasma cannons for havocs, as well as the other things that chaos should have access to but doesn't, but those are the cool toys only for Loyalist marines.
Psienesis wrote: I honestly do not understand why they aren't standard issue to all non-Dev marines. A Tactical Squad would be far more tactical if it could jump to/from cover/elevations/etc to more-easily establish tactical control of the battlefield.
I believe the resources required to get that many jump packs would be far to inconvenient. I agree with you, but it would be to much of a hazard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For anyone who has played Spacemarine should know how jump packs work. They really are a "jump" pack.
And again, a terrible representation of the fluff that blows space marines waaaaay out of the water, probably isn't even canon (IIRC confirmed by the devs), and multiple examples in the fluff and RPG's against it.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that Chaos Raptors have better jump packs that allow for longer flight time, possibly infinite due to being HH tech.
In what aspect are Space Marines "blown out of the water" here? The production of jump packs for tac marines and such or the propulsion of jump packs?
And yes, I would imagine Chaos Raptors have much better flight time than a normal assault marine would.
Speaking of better technology, I am still furious that Chaos Havocs don't have plasma cannons for tabletop. I mean, wouldnt they have loads of it? I guess thats a discussion for another thread but still pisses me off.
OT here, but asking why havocs don't have PC is like asking why CSM's don't have Land Speeders or why regular marines don't have autocannons. They're different armies.
Haha, is that so? Then why do SM's and CSM's both have bolters as their main weapon? What does being different armies have to do with that? Chaos Marines should have PC's. They had all the cool toys the SM's had. SM's don't use autocannons with their Chapters anymore and to use one would be heresy.
I talking tabletop wise, not fluff wise. It's hard to represent a fluff-accurate force with the current CSM codex. Also, I meant that whilst they're similar armies in all other aspects, gaming wise they're different armies. I would like to see Plasma cannons for havocs, as well as the other things that chaos should have access to but doesn't, but those are the cool toys only for Loyalist marines.
I suppose you're right. Maybe the thought of chaos marines being able to take all these cool marks and boons and such is good enough. I just crave the thought of searing marines with great purple balls of plasma.
OT, but, when it comes to War-gear, there should be absolutely nothing a Loyalist Chapter possesses that is not in the possession of a Chaos Space Marine force, outside of unique artifacts, of course.
Not all CSM are Veterans of the Long War. Squads and Companies of Loyalist Marines turn every other week, it seems, and take their toys with them.
Sure, maybe it should be like it was in Codex: Witch-Hunters and Codex: Daemon-Hunters, where you cannot have "modern" SM wargear if you give VotLW to your CSM, to represent the fact that your CSM are a recently-turned force, but that would be much better than what it is now.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: I honestly do not understand why they aren't standard issue to all non-Dev marines. A Tactical Squad would be far more tactical if it could jump to/from cover/elevations/etc to more-easily establish tactical control of the battlefield.
I believe the resources required to get that many jump packs would be far to inconvenient. I agree with you, but it would be to much of a hazard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For anyone who has played Spacemarine should know how jump packs work. They really are a "jump" pack.
And again, a terrible representation of the fluff that blows space marines waaaaay out of the water, probably isn't even canon (IIRC confirmed by the devs), and multiple examples in the fluff and RPG's against it.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that Chaos Raptors have better jump packs that allow for longer flight time, possibly infinite due to being HH tech.
In what aspect are Space Marines "blown out of the water" here? The production of jump packs for tac marines and such or the propulsion of jump packs?
And yes, I would imagine Chaos Raptors have much better flight time than a normal assault marine would.
Speaking of better technology, I am still furious that Chaos Havocs don't have plasma cannons for tabletop. I mean, wouldnt they have loads of it? I guess thats a discussion for another thread but still pisses me off.
OT here, but asking why havocs don't have PC is like asking why CSM's don't have Land Speeders or why regular marines don't have autocannons. They're different armies.
Haha, is that so? Then why do SM's and CSM's both have bolters as their main weapon? What does being different armies have to do with that? Chaos Marines should have PC's. They had all the cool toys the SM's had. SM's don't use autocannons with their Chapters anymore and to use one would be heresy.
I talking tabletop wise, not fluff wise. It's hard to represent a fluff-accurate force with the current CSM codex. Also, I meant that whilst they're similar armies in all other aspects, gaming wise they're different armies. I would like to see Plasma cannons for havocs, as well as the other things that chaos should have access to but doesn't, but those are the cool toys only for Loyalist marines.
I suppose you're right. Maybe the thought of chaos marines being able to take all these cool marks and boons and such is good enough. I just crave the thought of searing marines with great purple balls of plasma.
I know exactly how you feel man, I guess we'll have to make do with the ecto-plasma forgefiend. It's just not the same.
Psienesis wrote:OT, but, when it comes to War-gear, there should be absolutely nothing a Loyalist Chapter possesses that is not in the possession of a Chaos Space Marine force, outside of unique artifacts, of course.
Not all CSM are Veterans of the Long War. Squads and Companies of Loyalist Marines turn every other week, it seems, and take their toys with them.
Sure, maybe it should be like it was in Codex: Witch-Hunters and Codex: Daemon-Hunters, where you cannot have "modern" SM wargear if you give VotLW to your CSM, to represent the fact that your CSM are a recently-turned force, but that would be much better than what it is now.
The current chaos codex tries to cram all of chaos into one book, and it just doesn't work IMO. The idea's been brought up before, but multiple chaos codex's would be a dream come true for me, representing chaos legions, renegade space marines/warbands(this is where I feel the codex leans most towards at the moment), lost and the damned and daemons. Of course, that's just me wishlisting and would never happen, but I can dream right?
If you want recently turned marines use C:SM. If C:CSM had all the things C:SM had there would be no point in playing C:SM other than the characters, which, with a couple of exceptions, are frankly lackluster.
Furyou Miko wrote: Jump Packs are... hm, the best analogy I can think of is they're like the Roc's Feather in Legend of Zelda. It provides enough thrust to get you off the ground and hurtling through the air, but it can't provide the sort of sustained thrust required for true flight. Unless you're C.S. Goto, anyway. Then it lets you win aerial duels with flying bio-titans.
Furyou Miko wrote: Jump Packs are... hm, the best analogy I can think of is they're like the Roc's Feather in Legend of Zelda. It provides enough thrust to get you off the ground and hurtling through the air, but it can't provide the sort of sustained thrust required for true flight. Unless you're C.S. Goto, anyway. Then it lets you win aerial duels with flying bio-titans.
DONT FORGET THE MULTILASERS!!!!!!
And the backflipping Terminators.
As for the Multilasers, they were Mantis Warriors Devestators who were known to scavenge stuff from anywhere (IIRC, this is what I've heard)
So it's not too far fetched for Goto.
Furyou Miko wrote: Jump Packs are... hm, the best analogy I can think of is they're like the Roc's Feather in Legend of Zelda. It provides enough thrust to get you off the ground and hurtling through the air, but it can't provide the sort of sustained thrust required for true flight. Unless you're C.S. Goto, anyway. Then it lets you win aerial duels with flying bio-titans.
DONT FORGET THE MULTILASERS!!!!!!
And the backflipping Terminators.
As for the Multilasers, they were Mantis Warriors Devestators who were known to scavenge stuff from anywhere (IIRC, this is what I've heard)
So it's not too far fetched for Goto.
Plus multilasers aren't that bad of an idea at all. In fact, they should be standard issue for the devastators, as by feeding off the power supply of the armor (in most cases is a fusion reactor), they'd have infinite ammo. Compared to the 800 or so bolts Devs carry for heavy bolters.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Exergy wrote:There is a bonus you get when you are near the ground as the air being pushed down hits the large flat ground and bounces back at you. It's called ground effect in aerodynamics and it makes it much easier for helicopters and aircraft to fly when they are very close to the ground.
Sure, but ground effect doesn't produce the same results on all flying objects. It does a lot to keep ultra-light aircraft with huge wings up, but what about a half-ton lump of power armor?
Probably much, much less so.
Wyzilla wrote:Yet they had plasma cannons during the Horus Heresy. Chaos Space Marine should get everything Loyalists had as of M31.
Both the British and American armies used the Brown Bess musket during the American Revolution, yet they don't use them now. Just because you used something once doesn't mean you're going to continue to use it for the next 10,000 years.
They've been able to keep a lot of their equipment up, but not all of it. Perhaps the warpsmiths just don't like plasma cannons and so focus on fixing other weapons instead. Maybe they've lost the ability to maintain or replicate them entirely. There's no limit to the number of reasonable explanations there could be for why they don't have everything they once had in the heresy.
Furyou Miko wrote: Jump Packs are... hm, the best analogy I can think of is they're like the Roc's Feather in Legend of Zelda. It provides enough thrust to get you off the ground and hurtling through the air, but it can't provide the sort of sustained thrust required for true flight. Unless you're C.S. Goto, anyway. Then it lets you win aerial duels with flying bio-titans.
DONT FORGET THE MULTILASERS!!!!!!
That's... really not funny any more. I brought up Goto because he was relevant. Screaming about multilasers... was funny, five years ago, I guess, but I think it needs retiring.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Furyou Miko wrote: Jump Packs are... hm, the best analogy I can think of is they're like the Roc's Feather in Legend of Zelda. It provides enough thrust to get you off the ground and hurtling through the air, but it can't provide the sort of sustained thrust required for true flight. Unless you're C.S. Goto, anyway. Then it lets you win aerial duels with flying bio-titans.
DONT FORGET THE MULTILASERS!!!!!!
That's... really not funny any more. I brought up Goto because he was relevant. Screaming about multilasers... was funny, five years ago, I guess, but I think it needs retiring.
All Goto teaches us is that Black Library fluff can vary immensely, and most people will pick and choose as it suits them.
Ailaros wrote: They will slow you down a bit as you fall, and even let you jump a little bit higher than normal (though not by very much - easing the force of gravity doesn't make your legs any stronger), but that's about it. It wouldn't even help your speed very much as it produces less than 9.8 m/s worth of thrust which is only 20 miles per hour, at absolute best.
I have to correct a mistake here - gravity* is not 9.8 m/s, but 9.8 m/s/s. That is to say, it's not a speed, it's an acceleration.
*On Earth, anyway. And it's an immediate mistake to assume any given planet has the same gravity as Earth
This is a very significant difference, as while easing the force of gravity doesn't make your legs any stronger, it does mean that your ascent takes a lot longer to slow down.
The relevant equation is v^2 = u^2 + 2as, which is simple enough to rearrange to show that your apogee (your highest point in the jump, when your velocity is zero) is inversely proportional to your acceleration. Disregarding aerodynamic drag, of course, but that's negligible at these velocities.
If I had a magic switch that cancelled 90% of my weight, I could hurdle my house without too much difficulty.
