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Animus wrote: In the Tyranid Codex and Bloodthirster wrestles with three Tyrgons, so they're pretty strong.
That particular Bloodthirster was a member of a quartet of Greater Daemons, right next to a *major* Warp Rift. A rift so powerful it had a constant guard of Grey Knights including 2 Dreadknights and a GK Librarian. The Librarian in charge ordered the planet to remain purely to make sure that the Rift wouldn't open.
It had also been sapped of all it's energy by the Hive Mind at that stage.
That particular Bloodthirster was a member of a quartet of Greater Daemons, right next to a *major* Warp Rift. A rift so powerful it had a constant guard of Grey Knights including 2 Dreadknights and a GK Librarian. The Librarian in charge ordered the planet to remain purely to make sure that the Rift wouldn't open.
So do you actually think a guardsman is half as strong as a Hive Tyrant?
That particular Bloodthirster was a member of a quartet of Greater Daemons, right next to a *major* Warp Rift. A rift so powerful it had a constant guard of Grey Knights including 2 Dreadknights and a GK Librarian. The Librarian in charge ordered the planet to remain purely to make sure that the Rift wouldn't open.
So do you actually think a guardsman is half as strong as a Hive Tyrant?
The only way for the system to work in this way it was never meant to is exponentially.
At the least 3. At the most 8 when we get to things like An'ggrath.
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
I imagine a Bloodthirster is pretty strong. Maybe we could pit it in a fight against say, a load of Hive Tyrants and see how many it kills before it gets knocked down. Then maybe we could put a Primarch in the same place and see how many Hive Tyrants he kills. And then a few other things like a C'tan and so forth. We could have the tournament of the Millennium!
Ashiraya wrote: How do you quantify strength anyway? Bench pressing? I would love to see a Hive Tyrant do that.
Going the model they have some bizarre kind of pectorals and triceps.
They could.
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
herpguy wrote: In game rules have almost nothing to do with the background.
All the rules do is say that A is stronger than B.
Anyways, going by the fluff, there is no greater warrior in the galaxy than a Bloodthirster, and nothing is a match for one.
Except a few of the primarchs.
And Librarians.
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herpguy wrote: In game rules have almost nothing to do with the background.
All the rules do is say that A is stronger than B.
Anyways, going by the fluff, there is no greater warrior in the galaxy than a Bloodthirster, and nothing is a match for one.
Except a few of the primarchs.
And Librarians.
In the Farsight Enclaves Supplement, Farsigt defeats one with one arm. I say one arm because the bloodthirster ripped his her one off... Keep in mind a crisis suit is linked to their nervous system, so he felt that arm being torn away... Food for thought
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herpguy wrote: In game rules have almost nothing to do with the background.
All the rules do is say that A is stronger than B.
Anyways, going by the fluff, there is no greater warrior in the galaxy than a Bloodthirster, and nothing is a match for one.
Except a few of the primarchs.
And Librarians.
In the Farsight Enclaves Supplement, Farsigt defeats one with one arm. I say one arm because the bloodthirster ripped his her one off... Keep in mind a crisis suit is linked to their nervous system, so he felt that arm being torn away... Food for thought
I'm interested in this. The Dawn Blade apparently adds the remaining life of the slain (the time it would have lived if it had NOT been slain by thw Dawn Blade) to the wielder's lifespan. As Daemons are literally immortal except in truly exceptional circumstances where True Death is afflicted, does this mean by slaying a Daemon that Farsight
A) Becomes immortal.
B) Gains time = to the time the Daemon would have remained manifest
C) Time = to the time the Daemon's mortal body would have until "slain"
D) Feth all because Chaos.
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Orsai wrote: I imagine a Bloodthirster is pretty strong. Maybe we could pit it in a fight against say, a load of Hive Tyrants and see how many it kills before it gets knocked down. Then maybe we could put a Primarch in the same place and see how many Hive Tyrants he kills. And then a few other things like a C'tan and so forth. We could have the tournament of the Millennium!
I'm quite certain that Skarbrand would win this tournament.
Bloodthirsters at the height of their power are stronger than anything else bar Khorne itself.
Deadshot wrote: In the 5th Ed Codex they were Str 8, so the Average BT is ~twice as strong as a Space Marine, ~50% as strong as most other Monstrous Creatures and Dreadnoughts, but ~20% weaker than a Wraithlord/Knight for example. So its still plenty strong.
The Primarchs are mostly listed as having Strengths of 6, but there are accounts of Primarchs (Sanguinius in particular) beating them. Sangy actually beat the same one, the second time on Terra after having his legs broken, and killed it by snapping it over his (broken leg) knee.
Fluff strength is stretchy.
I'm pretty sure the likes of Ann'grath and Angron (a Daemon Prince but more powerful that most Bloodthirsters), would, as you say, totally annihilate most things. They lay waste to planets. Plenty strong to tear through anything short of a Warlord Titan. I say warlord because of Angron, mortal mode, was able to hold back a Warhound's foot (although nearly shattered his skeleton). Daemon Angron or Anngrath would, especially being nearly the size of one, would rip a Warhound and even Reavers in half.
Please.
For the love of Khorne.
Stop going around propagating arbitrary game mechanics as if they had any kind of relevance to the discussion.
Trying to use maths the way you do would be pointless even if this had not been an imprecise D6 system.
I know you did not base your argument on the rules here, but it's just misleading to even point them out as you do in this context.
If a Wrathknight began pushing, and five gretchin pushed right back, do you think it would be a stalemate?
Mathematics govern everything. I stalwartly believed that rules reflect the fluff. They have relevance.
And no, it doesn't work like that.
So Bloodthirsters which tear tanks by punching them. Because they're twice as strong. Yeah.
The way you could actually do it is say that each point of strength makes something three-four times as strong.
So a Bloodthirster would be between 64-128 as strong as a marine.
Hence then insta-killing marines.
I'd rather go with the idea that in-game stats are only good for showing that one thing is supposed to be stronger than another, but without having any real mathematical correlations.
i.e: Guardsman < Space Marine < Bloodthirster
But they wouldn't necessarily mean that a SM is equal to "X Guardsmen", or that a BT is equal to "Y Space Marines" (or subsequently "Z Guardsmen", because at that point, numbers start to get silly).
A better comparison would be whatever they are supposed to be able to do fluff-wise.
Deadshot wrote: In the 5th Ed Codex they were Str 8, so the Average BT is ~twice as strong as a Space Marine, ~50% as strong as most other Monstrous Creatures and Dreadnoughts, but ~20% weaker than a Wraithlord/Knight for example. So its still plenty strong.
The Primarchs are mostly listed as having Strengths of 6, but there are accounts of Primarchs (Sanguinius in particular) beating them. Sangy actually beat the same one, the second time on Terra after having his legs broken, and killed it by snapping it over his (broken leg) knee.
Fluff strength is stretchy.
I'm pretty sure the likes of Ann'grath and Angron (a Daemon Prince but more powerful that most Bloodthirsters), would, as you say, totally annihilate most things. They lay waste to planets. Plenty strong to tear through anything short of a Warlord Titan. I say warlord because of Angron, mortal mode, was able to hold back a Warhound's foot (although nearly shattered his skeleton). Daemon Angron or Anngrath would, especially being nearly the size of one, would rip a Warhound and even Reavers in half.
Please.
For the love of Khorne.
Stop going around propagating arbitrary game mechanics as if they had any kind of relevance to the discussion.
Trying to use maths the way you do would be pointless even if this had not been an imprecise D6 system.
I know you did not base your argument on the rules here, but it's just misleading to even point them out as you do in this context.
If a Wrathknight began pushing, and five gretchin pushed right back, do you think it would be a stalemate?
Mathematics govern everything. I stalwartly believed that rules reflect the fluff. They have relevance.
And no, it doesn't work like that.
So Bloodthirsters which tear tanks by punching them. Because they're twice as strong. Yeah.
The way you could actually do it is say that each point of strength makes something three-four times as strong.
So a Bloodthirster would be between 64-128 as strong as a marine.
Hence then insta-killing marines.
I'd rather go with the idea that in-game stats are only good for showing that one thing is supposed to be stronger than another, but without having any real mathematical correlations.
i.e: Guardsman < Space Marine < Bloodthirster
But they wouldn't necessarily mean that a SM is equal to "X Guardsmen", or that a BT is equal to "Y Space Marines" (or subsequently "Z Guardsmen", because at that point, numbers start to get silly).
A better comparison would be whatever they are supposed to be able to do fluff-wise.
Are you sure Straken is stronger than Ghazghkull?
I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a
Ashiraya wrote: How do you quantify strength anyway? Bench pressing? I would love to see a Hive Tyrant do that.
You beat me to it. This reminds me of fans of DragonBall Z arguing together. They all want to quantify the power of combatant with a number. That does not really make sense.
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Deadshot wrote: In the 5th Ed Codex they were Str 8, so the Average BT is ~twice as strong as a Space Marine, ~50% as strong as most other Monstrous Creatures and Dreadnoughts, but ~20% weaker than a Wraithlord/Knight for example. So its still plenty strong.
The Primarchs are mostly listed as having Strengths of 6, but there are accounts of Primarchs (Sanguinius in particular) beating them. Sangy actually beat the same one, the second time on Terra after having his legs broken, and killed it by snapping it over his (broken leg) knee.
Fluff strength is stretchy.
I'm pretty sure the likes of Ann'grath and Angron (a Daemon Prince but more powerful that most Bloodthirsters), would, as you say, totally annihilate most things. They lay waste to planets. Plenty strong to tear through anything short of a Warlord Titan. I say warlord because of Angron, mortal mode, was able to hold back a Warhound's foot (although nearly shattered his skeleton). Daemon Angron or Anngrath would, especially being nearly the size of one, would rip a Warhound and even Reavers in half.
Please.
For the love of Khorne.
Stop going around propagating arbitrary game mechanics as if they had any kind of relevance to the discussion.
Trying to use maths the way you do would be pointless even if this had not been an imprecise D6 system.
I know you did not base your argument on the rules here, but it's just misleading to even point them out as you do in this context.
If a Wrathknight began pushing, and five gretchin pushed right back, do you think it would be a stalemate?
Mathematics govern everything. I stalwartly believed that rules reflect the fluff. They have relevance.
And no, it doesn't work like that.
So Bloodthirsters which tear tanks by punching them. Because they're twice as strong. Yeah.
The way you could actually do it is say that each point of strength makes something three-four times as strong.
So a Bloodthirster would be between 64-128 as strong as a marine.
Hence then insta-killing marines.
I'd rather go with the idea that in-game stats are only good for showing that one thing is supposed to be stronger than another, but without having any real mathematical correlations.
i.e: Guardsman < Space Marine < Bloodthirster
But they wouldn't necessarily mean that a SM is equal to "X Guardsmen", or that a BT is equal to "Y Space Marines" (or subsequently "Z Guardsmen", because at that point, numbers start to get silly).
A better comparison would be whatever they are supposed to be able to do fluff-wise.
Are you sure Straken is stronger than Ghazghkull?
I this seems to be the exception that proves the rule.
It makes no sense for Straken to be stronger than Ghazzy, it makes no sense for him to be calculated as "X Ghazghkulls in power". Thus showing that mathematical extrapolations from the TT rules will be a little nonsensical.
It does, however, show a flaw in my idea.
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