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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a lotta the hate isn't so much hate for the space wolves as a dislike of some of the fluff thats been written. you see it with other armies that have had some truely facepalm worthy fluff. the Grey Knights and Dragio for example.

luckly there's always hope that the next codex will tone things down. as does sometimes happen. the 6th edition SM codex was MUCH kinder to "Space Marines that aren't ultramarines"

There's also the fact they've been SM + 1 (And moreso, 4-6 HQ's base when even Nids, Orks, and Chaos can't do that?)

Where's the 6 come from?

I think people should bear in mind that Space Marines do have their own things that aren't available to Wolves.

Rumors are six for a detachment, or six in general.

And yes they do, but typically things were usually better then what SM had, 5th for example had the better power weapons (Frost weapons), better tacticals while being cheaper and effective (GH), Eternal on any hero (saga of the bear), better devastators, etc, etc.

So you've got nothing concrete?
Ironclad Dreadnought, Land Speeder Storm, Thunderfire. Such wonderful things.
Oh please it's not like any of those things came for free.

People took the storm? Huh, news to me. Thunderfires have been cool and so have dreadnoughts, but 5th is over, but SW were dominating the charts back then with SM in the mid-tier.

Which one was on top for the whole of 6th?

Eldar, Tau, and Necrons...

SW are not as hypocritical as some people say. Its just most people making two mistakes...

1 - SW of 30K are 180 deg different than SW of 40K. The Wolves in Russes day were totally obedient to the chain of command. So much so that it exposes a rather fatal flaw (IE. Prospero). The Wolves under Grimnar are the new breed of Wolves. Those defiant of the ]I[ and other stuffed shirts. Probably because they learned their lesson about being too strict to the order and not questioning. I have found most confusion and IMO misdirected accusation is when one era of SW are being scolded for the actions of the other. The only thing they have in common is pretty much the name.


2 - All the talk of Hypocracy when dealing with sorcery came from the Treaty of Nikia(?) The Sorcery ban (as I understand it) was not a ban against sorcery. But against the school of Librarians (don't know the actual wording). Rune Priests are not Librarians. They do not get their skills and knowledge the same way Librarians do. As such the ban didn't apply to them. Yes its symantics, yes its a loop hole, but it is there. If the ban was on using Warp powers then you would be much more correct. But it wasn't worded that way.

Welcome to politics.

 Jayden63 wrote:
SW are not as hypocritical as some people say. Its just most people making two mistakes...

1 - SW of 30K are 180 deg different than SW of 40K. The Wolves in Russes day were totally obedient to the chain of command. So much so that it exposes a rather fatal flaw (IE. Prospero). The Wolves under Grimnar are the new breed of Wolves. Those defiant of the ]I[ and other stuffed shirts. Probably because they learned their lesson about being too strict to the order and not questioning. I have found most confusion and IMO misdirected accusation is when one era of SW are being scolded for the actions of the other. The only thing they have in common is pretty much the name.

And yet there's zero acknowledgement of such any such change with the SW background, it's up to the reader to assume such a change has occurred.

2 - All the talk of Hypocracy when dealing with sorcery came from the Treaty of Nikia(?) The Sorcery ban (as I understand it) was not a ban against sorcery. But against the school of Librarians (don't know the actual wording). Rune Priests are not Librarians. They do not get their skills and knowledge the same way Librarians do. As such the ban didn't apply to them. Yes its symantics, yes its a loop hole, but it is there. If the ban was on using Warp powers then you would be much more correct. But it wasn't worded that way.

Welcome to politics.

Hrm, no, it wasn't just against Librarians, but against the use of psychic powers in general. This would apply to the SW's as well, who are either willfully ignorant or actively deceptive about their psyekrs.

Even were this not the case, nobody likes politicians, hence, the hate for the SW's...

Either way, their actions in the incident came off as both hypocritical and underhanded, something they *should* be against, but seemed to take full advantage of nonetheless.

 Jayden63 wrote:
SW are not as hypocritical as some people say. Its just most people making two mistakes...

1 - SW of 30K are 180 deg different than SW of 40K. The Wolves in Russes day were totally obedient to the chain of command. So much so that it exposes a rather fatal flaw (IE. Prospero). The Wolves under Grimnar are the new breed of Wolves. Those defiant of the ]I[ and other stuffed shirts. Probably because they learned their lesson about being too strict to the order and not questioning. I have found most confusion and IMO misdirected accusation is when one era of SW are being scolded for the actions of the other. The only thing they have in common is pretty much the name.

Always struck me the wolves are obedient to the chain of command if it contained 1 of 2 things, Leman Russ or the Emporer, and Im not certain which order those 2 would be in. Modern day Imperium has neither of those things around whilst they possess Bjorn, a living lengend from before the heresy, who fought with Leman Russ himself (not certain on the Emporer front), whos wisdom they do bow to.

Lysit wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
SW are not as hypocritical as some people say. Its just most people making two mistakes...

1 - SW of 30K are 180 deg different than SW of 40K. The Wolves in Russes day were totally obedient to the chain of command. So much so that it exposes a rather fatal flaw (IE. Prospero). The Wolves under Grimnar are the new breed of Wolves. Those defiant of the ]I[ and other stuffed shirts. Probably because they learned their lesson about being too strict to the order and not questioning. I have found most confusion and IMO misdirected accusation is when one era of SW are being scolded for the actions of the other. The only thing they have in common is pretty much the name.

Always struck me the wolves are obedient to the chain of command if it contained 1 of 2 things, Leman Russ or the Emporer, and Im not certain which order those 2 would be in. Modern day Imperium has neither of those things around whilst they possess Bjorn, a living lengend from before the heresy, who fought with Leman Russ himself (not certain on the Emporer front), whos wisdom they do bow to.

IIRC it's implied Bjorn fought with Emps in the Emperors Gift.