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After reading the 'worst bit of fluff' thread, I noticed a lot of hate for the SW's fluff, the logic being that they were both the dark, brooding 'Emperor's Executioners' whilst also mucking around and getting drunk (there was also some stuff about them being a bit too Mary Sue-ish, but that is called Warhammer 40,000, and that is how it works).

So I thought I'd claim that they can be both, my comparison being Hawkeye from MASH: on the one hand he mucks around, picks up women and gets drunk, and on the other, is haunted by all of the horrible war and the kids he has to patch up; the mucking around is a coping mechanism.

Now, marines are a lot more mentally steady than us mortals, but even they must have a limit when faced with all of the worst horrors of the galaxy. Most marines seem to control themselves with almost fascistic levels of self-discipline, but I argue that the rebellious Wolves, which seem a tad more 'human', so to speak, 'deal with it' by mucking about and denying the problem.

I know that Marine psychology is basically impossible, but that was my thought.

They may be a bit rough round edges but they do hold own in a fight even if they have disagreed with other impirial factions.

Yes only ones to drink, get drunk with ale that can kill a normal human, are bit rowdy n have a minor wolf/fang obsession going on but log as you don,t ask inquisition, grey knights, dark angels or sisters of battle I doubt you'll have too many problems.

I don't have a problem with either of those 2 things. My problem with SW is that they are almost always portrayed as Mary Sue or "better than the rest." Seriously, read any SW novel produced in the last 5 years and it's obvious.

I like the SW's rebelliousness, but GW over did the whole wolfy thing. I would like them more if the fluff focused on the viking aspect instead of the wolf aspect.

The dichotomy stems from one simple thing. Dan Abnett burned Bill King's Space Wolves to the water line and built something totally different of what the legion was 10,000 years ago with Russ at its head. 40k sees them as the gakky Mary Sue exceptionalists who scream "fight the power" while swilling beer and hitting on eldar. 30k sees them as the epitome of the "I was just following orders" that fuels the machine of fascism.

"All Space Marines are tough, but the Space Wolves are especially dangerous."
- Dan Abnett

This is part of why people dislike the Space Wolves. They are the Mary Sue chapter, lol. The Ultramarines don't even come close.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
They are the Mary Sue chapter, lol. The Ultramarines don't even come close.

Except for the "every Chapter that isn't Ultramarines wishes they were" bit, ofc. :-)

Read the ragnar books and i like them, seems that the SW are more tribal and more indivudalistic than other chapters, they are all like dwarf troll slayers

I'm feeling that everything is a Mary Sue according to its own Codex though

I look at it this way.

Space marine chapters are like American Football teams. Each team has its marquee players that any other team would love to have, but for some reason there are teams that have never even been to a Superbowl and others that have won it multiple times. The SW are just one of those teams that always seems to end up playing in the big game.

Its an easy way to make enemies. I personally couldn't stand the New England Patriots after that small stretch of 3 Wins in 5 years. But when my team did it, man it was the best time to be a Pittsburgh Steeler fan.

People keep saying that they hate the SW because they seem Mary Sue, or are just portrayed as better. Well maybe they are just that. Better. Someone has to be the best. Every year some team wins the Superbowl and the 11 other guys who all lost on that trip are barely remembered. Every four years the Olympics come to town and we celebrate the top three contenders in each event and don't even know the names of the guy who came in fourth.

Every fan has their favorites and those that they flat out hate for no truly justifiable reason other than they choose to hate them. Its not like a Space Wolf visited them in the middle of the night and killed their kittens. Just like I'm pretty sure the Denver Broncos never did anything to me personally, but damn I hate those guys.

So my advise is enjoy the SW for what ever reason you choose and know that there is much hate out there for them. But for every hater you will find a wolf brother who likes them just the same. You will never convince the hater that they are wrong or misguided because these are fictional people who have only the actions of a few select authors to contend with and we all have our opinions of what is good vs bad in fictional people. Take them for the aspects you like and find intriguing and throw out the rest. My Wolves have always been Vikings in Space, and thats why they are cool to me. I couldn't care less what half the fluff says, because those arn't my Space Wolves. This is a game, and you can get the best out of a game if you focus on what you love.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
They are the Mary Sue chapter, lol. The Ultramarines don't even come close.

Except for the "every Chapter that isn't Ultramarines wishes they were" bit, ofc. :-)

Except that was just a single line, even the Ultramarines take losses, and don't perform stupid gak like firing artillery and then racing up in the vehicle to watch it explode at close range while still being considered master tacticians.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I look at it this way.

Space marine chapters are like American Football teams. Each team has its marquee players that any other team would love to have, but for some reason there are teams that have never even been to a Superbowl and others that have won it multiple times. The SW are just one of those teams that always seems to end up playing in the big game.

Its an easy way to make enemies. I personally couldn't stand the New England Patriots after that small stretch of 3 Wins in 5 years. But when my team did it, man it was the best time to be a Pittsburgh Steeler fan.

People keep saying that they hate the SW because they seem Mary Sue, or are just portrayed as better. Well maybe they are just that. Better. Someone has to be the best. Every year some team wins the Superbowl and the 11 other guys who all lost on that trip are barely remembered. Every four years the Olympics come to town and we celebrate the top three contenders in each event and don't even know the names of the guy who came in fourth.

Every fan has their favorites and those that they flat out hate for no truly justifiable reason other than they choose to hate them. Its not like a Space Wolf visited them in the middle of the night and killed their kittens. Just like I'm pretty sure the Denver Broncos never did anything to me personally, but damn I hate those guys.

So my advise is enjoy the SW for what ever reason you choose and know that there is much hate out there for them. But for every hater you will find a wolf brother who likes them just the same. You will never convince the hater that they are wrong or misguided because these are fictional people who have only the actions of a few select authors to contend with and we all have our opinions of what is good vs bad in fictional people. Take them for the aspects you like and find intriguing and throw out the rest. My Wolves have always been Vikings in Space, and thats why they are cool to me. I couldn't care less what half the fluff says, because those arn't my Space Wolves. This is a game, and you can get the best out of a game if you focus on what you love.

Exalted! The NFL was a perfect example to go with because everyone knows that team rivalry. I mean, I'm an Eagles fan. Everyone either loves us or hates us for some reason or another.

i think most of the SW hate (or atleast my own) comes from their involvment with the Council Of Nikea. SW are hypocrits, "oh psykers are bad and the Librarium should be abolished, but were still good since our Rune Priest get their powers from Fenris." Go Frak urself Wolves.

/Still like them better then the Ultramarines though.

They have no flaws apart from things that aren't really flaws.
Beards annoy me.
The focus on mainly wolfing everything up rather than on old Norse sagas and mythology is a missed path of great lore and inspiration.
They're going in every direction at the same time, and I see what you mean with the comparison to Hawkeye in MASH (great film and series btw) but he's shown to be wrong some times, and has to face consequences for his actions. Wolves don't really.
Their armour is a too light a grey.
The new fliers look like dog-crap.
I am still grumpy that BA aren't in the 7th boxset.
They're better than Dark Angels.

Those are my main gripes with the fenrisian homeboys.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I look at it this way.

Space marine chapters are like American Football teams. Each team has its marquee players that any other team would love to have, but for some reason there are teams that have never even been to a Superbowl and others that have won it multiple times. The SW are just one of those teams that always seems to end up playing in the big game.

Its an easy way to make enemies. I personally couldn't stand the New England Patriots after that small stretch of 3 Wins in 5 years. But when my team did it, man it was the best time to be a Pittsburgh Steeler fan.

People keep saying that they hate the SW because they seem Mary Sue, or are just portrayed as better. Well maybe they are just that. Better. Someone has to be the best. Every year some team wins the Superbowl and the 11 other guys who all lost on that trip are barely remembered. Every four years the Olympics come to town and we celebrate the top three contenders in each event and don't even know the names of the guy who came in fourth.

Every fan has their favorites and those that they flat out hate for no truly justifiable reason other than they choose to hate them. Its not like a Space Wolf visited them in the middle of the night and killed their kittens. Just like I'm pretty sure the Denver Broncos never did anything to me personally, but damn I hate those guys.

So my advise is enjoy the SW for what ever reason you choose and know that there is much hate out there for them. But for every hater you will find a wolf brother who likes them just the same. You will never convince the hater that they are wrong or misguided because these are fictional people who have only the actions of a few select authors to contend with and we all have our opinions of what is good vs bad in fictional people. Take them for the aspects you like and find intriguing and throw out the rest. My Wolves have always been Vikings in Space, and thats why they are cool to me. I couldn't care less what half the fluff says, because those arn't my Space Wolves. This is a game, and you can get the best out of a game if you focus on what you love.

Very well said. Someone has to be the best? ULTRAMARINES!

I find them a bit silly and over the top, and I hate their hypocrisy over the whole psyker thing, but the thing that annoys me most about the Space Wolves?

Books like Blood of Asaheim that try to make them awesome, but are so ham-handed in their execution that it makes it obvious that the Space Wolves are protected by plotium and bad writing instead of standing on their own merits.

I actually like the idea of the individualistic, heroic saga-sewing Space Wolves. I love the idea of their 'tribal' magic (even if I do wish they'd admit that it was magic). I just can't stand the ham and bad writing that accompanies them wherever they go.

I think a lotta the hate isn't so much hate for the space wolves as a dislike of some of the fluff thats been written. you see it with other armies that have had some truely facepalm worthy fluff. the Grey Knights and Dragio for example.

luckly there's always hope that the next codex will tone things down. as does sometimes happen. the 6th edition SM codex was MUCH kinder to "Space Marines that aren't ultramarines"

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a lotta the hate isn't so much hate for the space wolves as a dislike of some of the fluff thats been written. you see it with other armies that have had some truely facepalm worthy fluff. the Grey Knights and Dragio for example.

luckly there's always hope that the next codex will tone things down. as does sometimes happen. the 6th edition SM codex was MUCH kinder to "Space Marines that aren't ultramarines"

There's also the fact they've been SM + 1 (And moreso, 4-6 HQ's base when even Nids, Orks, and Chaos can't do that?)

Now that its in my head, lets do a round up of what chapter fits to what NFL team.

Imma call it Ultramarines are the Packers

anyone else got a team/chapter pairing?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a lotta the hate isn't so much hate for the space wolves as a dislike of some of the fluff thats been written. you see it with other armies that have had some truely facepalm worthy fluff. the Grey Knights and Dragio for example.

luckly there's always hope that the next codex will tone things down. as does sometimes happen. the 6th edition SM codex was MUCH kinder to "Space Marines that aren't ultramarines"

There's also the fact they've been SM + 1 (And moreso, 4-6 HQ's base when even Nids, Orks, and Chaos can't do that?)

Where's the 6 come from?

I think people should bear in mind that Space Marines do have their own things that aren't available to Wolves.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
Now that its in my head, lets do a round up of what chapter fits to what NFL team.

Imma call it Ultramarines are the Packers

anyone else got a team/chapter pairing?

Dark Angels and patriots, because Bill Belichick is as silent as Lion El Johnson when it comes to details. That and they are both conceded in my opinion.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I actually like the idea of the individualistic, heroic saga-sewing Space Wolves. I love the idea of their 'tribal' magic (even if I do wish they'd admit that it was magic). I just can't stand the ham and bad writing that accompanies them wherever they go.

On the other hand, a lot of 40K books and fluff is totally over the top. In their own books Space Marines move like lightning and survive hits that would stop a battle tank, while they die like cheap Chuch Norris mooks in other books. And so on.

pm713 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a lotta the hate isn't so much hate for the space wolves as a dislike of some of the fluff thats been written. you see it with other armies that have had some truely facepalm worthy fluff. the Grey Knights and Dragio for example.

luckly there's always hope that the next codex will tone things down. as does sometimes happen. the 6th edition SM codex was MUCH kinder to "Space Marines that aren't ultramarines"

There's also the fact they've been SM + 1 (And moreso, 4-6 HQ's base when even Nids, Orks, and Chaos can't do that?)

Where's the 6 come from?

I think people should bear in mind that Space Marines do have their own things that aren't available to Wolves.

Rumors are six for a detachment, or six in general.

And yes they do, but typically things were usually better then what SM had, 5th for example had the better power weapons (Frost weapons), better tacticals while being cheaper and effective (GH), Eternal on any hero (saga of the bear), better devastators, etc, etc.

I agree with the sentiment that they're total mary sues.

They're astartes.
They're vikings.
They're werewolves.
They're rebellious.
They're supposed better than any other astartes.
They're capable of using the most ridiculously overpowered psychic power in the game.

There's also the fact that:

They're total hypocrites.
They're attractive to annoying (man)children.
They're another Imperial faction that should just be rolled into the SM codex.

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:
I agree with the sentiment that they're total mary sues.

They're astartes.
They're vikings.
They're werewolves.
They're rebellious.
They're supposed better than any other astartes.
They're capable of using the most ridiculously overpowered psychic power in the game.

There's also the fact that:

They're total hypocrites.
They're attractive to annoying (man)children.
They're another Imperial faction that should just be rolled into the SM codex.

Few things, it's mentioned in Prospero Burns that they're rumoured to be the "Emperor's executioners" and it's implied they're there to take on any chapters the Emperor might command them to. The psychic thing is wrong because that got FAQ'd weeks ago but there is rumour of a new discipline so it remains to be seen.

They are hypocrites but there's no reason to mention the "annoying (man)children)" part, that's just uncalled for and ironic that one has to resort to name calling.

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
The psychic thing is wrong because that got FAQ'd weeks ago.

I literally love you right now.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a lotta the hate isn't so much hate for the space wolves as a dislike of some of the fluff thats been written. you see it with other armies that have had some truely facepalm worthy fluff. the Grey Knights and Dragio for example.

luckly there's always hope that the next codex will tone things down. as does sometimes happen. the 6th edition SM codex was MUCH kinder to "Space Marines that aren't ultramarines"

There's also the fact they've been SM + 1 (And moreso, 4-6 HQ's base when even Nids, Orks, and Chaos can't do that?)

Where's the 6 come from?

I think people should bear in mind that Space Marines do have their own things that aren't available to Wolves.

Rumors are six for a detachment, or six in general.

And yes they do, but typically things were usually better then what SM had, 5th for example had the better power weapons (Frost weapons), better tacticals while being cheaper and effective (GH), Eternal on any hero (saga of the bear), better devastators, etc, etc.

So you've got nothing concrete?
Ironclad Dreadnought, Land Speeder Storm, Thunderfire. Such wonderful things.
Oh please it's not like any of those things came for free.

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:
I agree with the sentiment that they're total mary sues.

I feel this

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:

They're total hypocrites.

Totally this.
The SW supposedly hate sorcery, have a long standing grudge against the 1kSons and Magnus for having sorcerers, and yet, their rune priests channel some shamanistic forces from their home planet; AKA sorcery.

They run around claiming to be the emperor's executioners, keeping order in the galaxy; yet more often than not, they are the ones who are out of order and drunk on the job.

They dont trust technology, because it is akin to sorcery, yet they employ lots of technology, crazy frost axes, helfrost cannons, and cyberwolves.

Now their terminators are teleporting into battle and their troops are flying around in giant phallases despite their doctrine of "fighting with two feet on the ground, like Russ intended"

As others have noted, it's not that they're just multiple, highly contradictory things, it's not just that they come off as hypocritical space hipsters when it comes to psychic powers, but they've also got that all wrapped up in some of the most awful, "taken to 11", almost parody level writing of any faction in the game.

It's hard to take a faction seriously as "brooding executioners" when they also fire artillery by smell and crash thunderhawks for giggles and have the word "wolf" hamfisted onto every piece of wargear and personal title that they can possibly have while they ride actual giant wolves...

It's not just one thing, it's the combination of wildly contradictory things, hypocritical behavior, the painful stretching of their motif, and astoundingly bad, fan-fic level writing. The Space Wolves have each of these is spades.

pm713 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a lotta the hate isn't so much hate for the space wolves as a dislike of some of the fluff thats been written. you see it with other armies that have had some truely facepalm worthy fluff. the Grey Knights and Dragio for example.

luckly there's always hope that the next codex will tone things down. as does sometimes happen. the 6th edition SM codex was MUCH kinder to "Space Marines that aren't ultramarines"

There's also the fact they've been SM + 1 (And moreso, 4-6 HQ's base when even Nids, Orks, and Chaos can't do that?)

Where's the 6 come from?

I think people should bear in mind that Space Marines do have their own things that aren't available to Wolves.

Rumors are six for a detachment, or six in general.

And yes they do, but typically things were usually better then what SM had, 5th for example had the better power weapons (Frost weapons), better tacticals while being cheaper and effective (GH), Eternal on any hero (saga of the bear), better devastators, etc, etc.

So you've got nothing concrete?
Ironclad Dreadnought, Land Speeder Storm, Thunderfire. Such wonderful things.
Oh please it's not like any of those things came for free.

People took the storm? Huh, news to me. Thunderfires have been cool and so have dreadnoughts, but 5th is over, but SW were dominating the charts back then with SM in the mid-tier.