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Night fighting not worth it.

I just wonder if Orikan and the C'Tan thing isn't worth it for screwing up all those Rhinos/Razorbacks in 7th..?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to speak up for the one everyone is saying is crap.

 vipoid wrote:
The problem is, none of them really add anything to an army (aside from Nemessor and his bodyguard).
Lets go through some reasons characters are added to other armies:

But do we really need anything special? I'll just give my thoughs about your points.

*You talk about it as if its a bad thing All of our troops are already Ld10 and our melee-orientated troops are all Fearless.
*What exactly could we use for FoC-swapping? If I look at my other codices, the best we could end up is Troop-Choice Lychguard, not something I'd be excited about.
*We get our "Psychers" through Crypteks, all of which don't have to roll for their "Psychic Powers" and we already have Spyders as incredible anti-Psykers.
*What kind of unit-buffs would you prefer? This might be one of the things I am actually interested in.

In summation, our SCs are very expensive, but just don't bring much to the table. You usually end up paying 160+ points for maybe one semi-useful ability, plus a lot of crap wargear and useless special rules. Also, most are outfitted entirely for combat... yet suck in combat. WS4 and 3 attacks are not impressive for SCs. Also, only 2 of them thought to bring AP2 weapons and, of those, only one has an invulnerable save (the other doesn't even have 2+ armour).

I have to disagree; Compared to the other armies I play they are very cheap.
The biggest problem is that people immediately write off a unit if it's not usable in the most competitive list.
And it's hard if not impossible to compete with a Destroyer Lord.

Anakyr is a decent deal for what he is, I would say he is useful for his points, In that he has useful wargear for the most part and isn't priced out of utility compared to a generic overlord. I was sad when he lost his CCB, but he is a nice HQ to have around if your opponent is fielding large vehicles. (which the advent of lord of war as part of a normal FOC, quite a few do)

Furious Charging/Counter-attacking Immortals aren't that bad, especially since the buff doesn't really seem to add much of anything to anakyrs' base cost compared to an overlord kitted with similar gear.

I do wish he'd thought to bring in the sempiternal weave and/or phase shifter. or hell, he'd also be awesome as pants on a destroyer chassis. (one can only hope that 7th edition necrons have a unique destroyer lord, and given his affinity for machines, he is a likely candidate)

Kangodo wrote:


But do we really need anything special? I'll just give my thoughs about your points.

*You talk about it as if its a bad thing All of our troops are already Ld10 and our melee-orientated troops are all Fearless.

Granted, but something along the lines of 'choose to pass or fail all Ld tests' certainly wouldn't go amiss. Nor would a fearless HQ - so you can make a non-combat squad fearless.

Kangodo wrote:

*What exactly could we use for FoC-swapping? If I look at my other codices, the best we could end up is Troop-Choice Lychguard, not something I'd be excited about.

Wraiths as troops?

More seriously, I do agree - our book is rather lacklustre in infantry that you'd want to take in large amounts.

Kangodo wrote:

*We get our "Psychers" through Crypteks, all of which don't have to roll for their "Psychic Powers" and we already have Spyders as incredible anti-Psykers.

Sorry, but spyders are crap anti-psykers.

Also, getting "psychic powers" via crypteks isn't a reason to take a SC - especially ones which don't grant access to a royal court.

Kangodo wrote:

*What kind of unit-buffs would you prefer? This might be one of the things I am actually interested in.

1) Non-random ones. I'd have no objection to Szeras's buff, if I actually got to pick which of the 3 possibilities I got - rather than having to roll for it. Admittedly, Bloodswarm nanoscarabs probably can't be saved by making it non-random, but it might at least make it worth printing.

2) Ones that give a bit more thought to our being a shooting army. Of the buffs given by the SCs we're discussing, only 1 actually improves a unit's shooting capabilities. How giving a unit rerolls to hit (or even reroll 1s to hit)? Or perhaps giving a unit's gauss weapons rending? What I don't want is various ways to improve the combat capabilities of shooting units.

Kangodo wrote:

I have to disagree; Compared to the other armies I play they are very cheap.

They're not the worst offenders, but they're pretty expensive for what they bring (most being either overstocked with crap wargear, or missing it altogether). Out of interest though, what other armies do you play?

Kangodo wrote:

The biggest problem is that people immediately write off a unit if it's not usable in the most competitive list.

I don't follow your logic here. If you're not playing competitive lists, then surely how strong/weak they are doesn't really matter one way or the other? You might as well just shrug and take whichever has the best fluff or model. Which is fine, but doesn't really advance a discussion about a given model's value.

Kangodo wrote:

And it's hard if not impossible to compete with a Destroyer Lord.

Would it surprise you to learn that I don't use a destroyer lord?

 vipoid wrote:
Granted, but something along the lines of 'choose to pass or fail all Ld tests' certainly wouldn't go amiss. Nor would a fearless HQ - so you can make a non-combat squad fearless.

That is true, we don't have a Fearless HQ.
But I still think we don't really need it and I'm quite afraid of the endless QQ when people have to face a Fearless Warrior-blob.
It's already damn scary when I field the Infinite Phalanx in Apocalypse.

Wraiths as troops? More seriously, I do agree - our book is rather lacklustre in infantry that you'd want to take in large amounts.

*heavy breathing*
Although I do think we should have a HQ that makes Flayed Ones Troops.
Nevermind, ignore that! I think Flayed Ones should be troops by default.
And I would like to see some more Heavy Support shifted towards Elite-entry or have them make the Elites a bit more attractive.

Sorry, but spyders are crap anti-psykers.
Also, getting "psychic powers" via crypteks isn't a reason to take a SC - especially ones which don't grant access to a royal court.

Really, how come? A 4+ DtW seems very strong to me. Especially for those couple of points; my BA need Mephiston to get a 4+ DtW.
I could take nearly 4 Spyders for that price.
Their problem however is that they occupy the HS-slot and we would be better off if they were elites.

I know, our Psykers are not linked to the SC (except for some SC's). Four out of seven can take a Royal Court though.

1) Non-random ones. I'd have no objection to Szeras's buff, if I actually got to pick which of the 3 possibilities I got - rather than having to roll for it. Admittedly, Bloodswarm nanoscarabs probably can't be saved by making it non-random, but it might at least make it worth printing.

Fully agree, but I do think that Szeras would get increased in points-cost if they made it non-random.
Nanoscarabs is confusing as ever.. Nevermind, I now discover - after two years - that you select a non-vehicle unit and not a vehicle (as I always thought). That tells you how many times I actually used this rule (hint: Zero).
I still don't understand why I would want to DS them when I could also infiltrate them.

2) Ones that give a bit more thought to our being a shooting army. Of the buffs given by the SCs we're discussing, only 1 actually improves a unit's shooting capabilities. How giving a unit rerolls to hit (or even reroll 1s to hit)? Or perhaps giving a unit's gauss weapons rending? What I don't want is various ways to improve the combat capabilities of shooting units.

So you would like to see some of the utility from non-SC shifted to the Special Characters? That would be a great idea.
We already have the twin-linked and rerolls of 1; but they only come with Destroyer Lords and Triarch Stalkers. A shift to more force-multipliers for the Special Characters would be welcome.
Rending would be a good idea, we can already trade Entropic Strike on Scarabs for Rending by using Dark Harvest.
I believe GW could learn a lot from looking at our IA12-list, they have a good idea. Especially models like Toholk the Blinded; that's the stuff I would like to see.

They're not the worst offenders, but they're pretty expensive for what they bring (most being either overstocked with crap wargear, or missing it altogether). Out of interest though, what other armies do you play?

Marines and mostly Blood Angels.
The point is that I always have fun fielding Necron-HQ's and I think they are incredibly cheap for what they bring.
Some of their wargear is expensive and useless, but I am fine with most things.
My biggest issue is in Trazyn, which seems as if you want to field him WITH Lychguard, having Relentless. Give this guy an Orb instead!

Which is fine, but doesn't really advance a discussion about a given model's value.

I don't think it really advances a discussion to instantly dismiss any unit that is not top-tier.
Instead it might be more beneficial to talk about each SC and discuss what his strengths and weaknesses are.
Fact is that there are always top-tier lists for armies and therefore "subpar" SC's will always exist.
Another fact is that the majority of players play with friends, they play at home or against people that bring "okay" lists.

Kangodo wrote:

That is true, we don't have a Fearless HQ.
But I still think we don't really need it and I'm quite afraid of the endless QQ when people have to face a Fearless Warrior-blob.
It's already damn scary when I field the Infinite Phalanx in Apocalypse.

Possibly not, but it would be nice if one of our SCs was fearless.

It's rather irritating when my machines run away like little girls, but humans stack around to fight.

Kangodo wrote:

Really, how come? A 4+ DtW seems very strong to me. Especially for those couple of points; my BA need Mephiston to get a 4+ DtW.

Because it's only 4+ for things next to them. The psychic powers that concern me are the ones my opponent is casting on his *own* units.

Kangodo wrote:

Their problem however is that they occupy the HS-slot and we would be better off if they were elites.

More accurately, they occupy the same slot as Annihilation Barges.

But, I agree - they'd probably be taken more if they were Elites.

Kangodo wrote:

Fully agree, but I do think that Szeras would get increased in points-cost if they made it non-random.

Which would be bad news, since he's currently worth about half of what he actually costs.

Kangodo wrote:

Nanoscarabs is confusing as ever.. Nevermind, I now discover - after two years - that you select a non-vehicle unit and not a vehicle (as I always thought). That tells you how many times I actually used this rule (hint: Zero).
I still don't understand why I would want to DS them when I could also infiltrate them.

I don't understand why I'd want to use them, period.

Kangodo wrote:

So you would like to see some of the utility from non-SC shifted to the Special Characters? That would be a great idea.
We already have the twin-linked and rerolls of 1; but they only come with Destroyer Lords and Triarch Stalkers. A shift to more force-multipliers for the Special Characters would be welcome.

Pretty much. I think our SCs really need to be better force-multipliers - especially since they're not really good at anything else.

Kangodo wrote:

My biggest issue is in Trazyn, which seems as if you want to field him WITH Lychguard, having Relentless. Give this guy an Orb instead!

Agreed.

Kangodo wrote:

Another fact is that the majority of players play with friends, they play at home or against people that bring "okay" lists.

I do this... and still don't use any of our SCs. Take from that what you will.

What does Szeras bring to the table, compared to another SC or even a generic HQ? What about Orikan?

In another Necron thread, someone said that they felt units should be discussed based on their competitive worth. If one isn't interested in competitive play, then they ought to consider that Unit X is still competing with Unit Y for point and slot allocation. And if they don't care about that, then what does it matter what the Internet says; they would probably have fun using whatever they wanted.

For what its worth, Szeras and Anrakyr could be fun for making a squad of Immortals into an assault unit. However I don't think that I would run it, especially when I can't guarantee that I'll get the buffs I want from Szeras every game.

edited: "for what its worth..." "I don't think its worth it", I'm good at words

Immortals will NEVER be an assault unit. They have no melee weapon. They have 1 base attack. They have I2. They either have T5 or S5. Not an assault unit at all :/

Szeras is a normal Cryptek, with a +100% to his cost for useless stats and abilities and the loss of an actual useful thing.
I would remake Orikan like this: Make him a better Cryptek with more army-wide abilities that are actually worth his cost and give him an upgrade for 20 points or so that turns him into an MC for the entire game.

 vipoid wrote:
It's rather irritating when my machines run away like little girls, but humans stack around to fight.

That mostly happens in CC, which is why I see melee as our only 'weakness'.
It's why I always protect my blobs of 20 and I'll allow them to charge my blobs of 10, they can be missed.
Wouldn't it be unfair to even make that weakness go away?

Because it's only 4+ for things next to them. The psychic powers that concern me are the ones my opponent is casting on his *own* units.

Is there any army that can protect against Blessings?

More accurately, they occupy the same slot as Annihilation Barges.

Not just AB's, I'm also talking about less competitive lists.
I own: 5 Barges, 3 Spyders, 1 Doomsday Ark, 2-4 Monoliths, 1 Sentry Pylon and a Tesseract Ark.
It's the most crowded slot with 'decent' units and it's the only slot I always manage to fill.

Which would be bad news, since he's currently worth about half of what he actually costs.

That is true, you basically pay 55 points for: No Overlord needed, a wound, 3 attacks, +1 to Save and his 'special rule'.
It would hurt a lot less if he has less attacks because his amount is just useless and if he actually had a Solar Pulse!

I don't understand why I'd want to use them, period.

Four attacks on the charge is quite good with infiltrate. I wish they had fleet or something like it.

 vipoid wrote:
It's rather irritating when my machines run away like little girls, but humans stack around to fight.

This is actually explained in the fluff - Necrons never "run away" as they have no emotions:

Kangodo wrote:
I would remake Orikan like this: Make him a better Cryptek with more army-wide abilities that are actually worth his cost and give him an upgrade for 20 points or so that turns him into an MC for the entire game.

I suspect you'd have to make it more than 20pts for that increase in statline. Otherwise I support the idea.

Alternatively, perhaps he could keep his transform ability - but not have it random. e.g. Let him transform every other game turn (can choose which mode he starts in), or else allow him to spend say 3 turns transformed, but the controlling player gets to choose when he transforms. Having it random when it starts and ends just makes it far too unreliable.

Kangodo wrote:

That mostly happens in CC, which is why I see melee as our only 'weakness'.
It's why I always protect my blobs of 20 and I'll allow them to charge my blobs of 10, they can be missed.
Wouldn't it be unfair to even make that weakness go away?

Well, it would only be for a single squad, and it wouldn't stop us getting minced in combat - we just wouldn't run away.

Thing is, it seems like the sort of boost infantry based necron armies could do with - so that we might actually see them outside of ghost arks or nightscythes.

Kangodo wrote:

Is there any army that can protect against Blessings?

Ones with psykers to generate more warp charges? Still not an ideal defence, but better than nothing.

Kangodo wrote:

Not just AB's, I'm also talking about less competitive lists.
I own: 5 Barges, 3 Spyders, 1 Doomsday Ark, 2-4 Monoliths, 1 Sentry Pylon and a Tesseract Ark.
It's the most crowded slot with 'decent' units and it's the only slot I always manage to fill.

I know, I was just kidding with the Annihilation Barge remark.

Personally, I find that my FA slot fills up fastest - but possibly because I often use small squads of scarabs.

Kangodo wrote:

That is true, you basically pay 55 points for: No Overlord needed, a wound, 3 attacks, +1 to Save and his 'special rule'.
It would hurt a lot less if he has less attacks because his amount is just useless and if he actually had a Solar Pulse!

Agreed.

Kangodo wrote:

Four attacks on the charge is quite good with infiltrate. I wish they had fleet or something like it.

The problem though is that they're still I2 units with a 4+ armour save. They need to be cheaper or else there's just no reason to use them over standard warriors - which also have Objective Secured, and can hurt vehicles.

I think you mentioned this elsewhere, but they should really be troops. It would open up new army possibilities, and they really don't live up to their 'elite' status.

 Sigvatr wrote:

This is actually explained in the fluff - Necrons never "run away" as they have no emotions:

Which still makes sod-all sense.

There are many, many situations where staying will be logical, but they'll flee instead (or occasionally vice versa). Or, when they decide that it's logical to be pinned. Or, when they decided that it's logical to be frightened.

Please explain to me what it represents when a necron fails a Fear test.

@Sigvtar
That's true but you wouldn't put them in the Bastion, have them outside in the corner where they are safe from suffering D6 S6 attacks. You'd simply use the Bastion to reroll reserves with Comms relay and block Los so that they could only target the building.

I'd probably use Destroyer and Overlords for their utility anyway

I'd say only the octopus (this said top of, but I loved the autocorrect too much) the heap combined armies of the Imperium (who have been gifted 7th) have a Choice of competitive named HQs. Tau have Farsight (Shadowsun only reay with Farsight and then definitely not the top build). Eldar have allying in The Baron (Eldrad? Bit over costed). I guess Tyranids could use the Swarmlord at a push...? Orks... Um Ghazghul is it? CSM Typhus for zombies (maybe Huron...?). Chaos Daemons Kairos Fateweaver. Though the last two get access to Be'lakor so maybe 2 for them.

We've got Zandrekh. And he's a very good buffer and de buffer.

One thing I will say - whilst it would be nice if our SCs were a bit better value for points, I am glad that we haven't got any uber-competitive characters.

Having a SC who is head and shoulders above the standard HQs is just dull.

Coteaz. Tiggy. Loth. The Great Imperial Battle Brother Love In has all the most OP, cheese-beardable, Wombo Combo HQs out there now. And that is what breaks lists. (Invisible grav star I'm looking at you)

Kholzerino wrote:
(Invisible grav star I'm looking at you)

Man, I can't WAIT until I know I'm going to play an invisible Grav-Star Star list so I'll finally have an excuse to bust out Sentry-Star.
"Oh, you're going to be using an incredibly broken mechanic? Well, say hello to the cure to your cancer. Get 'em, Obyron!"

Though, it'd be nice to see if they advance the fluff for the next codex, promoting Zahndrekh from the rank of Nemesor to Phaeron.