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 Awfeel wrote:
The entire mob (meaning the whole amount of number of models present in the mob in its entirety...) needs to pay to upgrade from sluggas to shootas.

I agree with this. You can't upgrade half the sluggas to shootas. The entire mob needs to participate in the upgrades. And then you pay 1 point per model who participates.

If not every model in the mob has a slugga (which they won't if you pick a big shoota before upgrading to shootas for everyone), then not every model in the mob is upgrading to a shoota. But... the entire mob is still upgrading to a shoota.

Two Scenarios...

#1 - 10 Man Mob with no other upgrades upgrades to shootas
My reading - 1 point per slugga upgraded.
Other reading - 1 point per slugga upgraded.

#2 10 Man Mob with Big Shoota chosen first and then upgrades to shootas
My reading - 1 point per slugga upgrades.
Other reading - 1.11 points per slugga upgraded.

I just can't believe that GW intends variable upgrade pricing depending on how other models in the mob are equipped. We know the rules are written poorly, but the clear intent is that it costs 1 point for a Slugga Boy to become a Shoota Boy. If one Slugga Boy becomes a Big Shoota Boy and then the Boss comes round and says "Oy! You lot! Talk to da mek and he's gonna let you trade in dose sluggas for shootas. But you all gotta make da same call. Noone keeps a slugga. One toof per slugga.", how many teef does the entire mob pay? 9 teef, since there are only 9 sluggas. The ENTIRE mob has swapped sluggas for shootas at a cost of 1 point per model.

I genuinely don't understand how this isn't making sense.

 Kriswall wrote:
[... But... the entire mob is still upgrading to a shoota.

...at a cost of 1 point per model.

Not one point per slugga.

I just can't believe that GW intends variable upgrade pricing depending on how other models in the mob are equipped.

And yet that's what you are arguing for...

Honestly, for one or two points I couldn't give less of a ****.


Seems pretty obvious to me that you pay per model, 1pt to upgrade the mob to shootas. Regardless of other upgrades you take. But whatever, not worth arguing about.

The wording is potentially ambiguous as it doesn't clarify 1 point per model in the mob or 1 point per model who is upgrading. It just says 1 point per model. It doesn't make logical sense to me to force a model to pay 1 point (we're paying per model) as a result of swapping slugga for shoota if the swap never occurs.

I've yet to see an explanation for how I'm paying 1 point for a model to swap a slugga for shoota if the swap doesn't occur. And we're not paying per mob, we're paying per model.

To be very specific... if the payment is per model, and our only requirement is that the entire mob make the same decision (we agree on this), why isn't the criteria of whether or not a model has to pay (we're paying per model) also per model?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
[... But... the entire mob is still upgrading to a shoota.

...at a cost of 1 point per model.

Not one point per slugga.

I just can't believe that GW intends variable upgrade pricing depending on how other models in the mob are equipped.

And yet that's what you are arguing for...

I'm actually arguing for constant pricing per piece of wargear regardless of unit size. You're arguing for variable pricing per piece of wargear, but constant pricing per unit size. Wargear is typically a fixed upgrade price, so I'm trying to avoid price variability.

It's not ambiguous.

1 point per model means....1 point per model.

1 point per model with a slugga would mean 1 point per model with a slugga.
I think you are trying to superimpose language at the end of the requirement.

the reason they changing price/unit is for simplicity and mathematical smoothness. 15 guys in the squad? want it to be a shoota buys squad? add another 15 points. Ok now go add in the special weapons.

I appreciate that you feel the rules should have been worded a certain way, and I understand the frustrations of wishing the book clarified more. But the fact is, it says 1 pt per model.

And they have used this pricing before. Most grenades use this pricing format, although in that instance each and every model gets the grenade.

But the idea is that a big shoota in a unit of shootas is more effective than a big shoota in a unit of choppas.

Also, did I mention it's easier to calculate the totals by doing it this way?

 Icculus wrote:
It's not ambiguous.

1 point per model means....1 point per model.

1 point per model with a slugga would mean 1 point per model with a slugga.
I think you are trying to superimpose language at the end of the requirement.

the reason they changing price/unit is for simplicity and mathematical smoothness. 15 guys in the squad? want it to be a shoota buys squad? add another 15 points. Ok now go add in the special weapons.

I agree that in the order you've stated, you'd pay 15 points. However, you are adding an order of operations that isn't in the rules. I could just as easily say 15 guys in the squad? Ok now add in the special weapons. Want it to be a shoota boys squad? add another 14 points (the entire mob is swapping sluggas for shootas at the cost of 1 point per model. 14 models are swapping sluggas for shootas. 14 points. The entire mob is STILL swapping sluggas for shootas, but only 14 models are swapping, not 15 models. And we're paying per model, not per mob.

I appreciate that you feel the rules should have been worded a certain way, and I understand the frustrations of wishing the book clarified more. But the fact is, it says 1 pt per model.

And they have used this pricing before. Most grenades use this pricing format, although in that instance each and every model gets the grenade.

But the idea is that a big shoota in a unit of shootas is more effective than a big shoota in a unit of choppas.

Whether or not the gun is more effective is irrelevant to how much it costs.

Also, did I mention it's easier to calculate the totals by doing it this way?

Counting to ten models in a mob is somehow easier than counting to 9 slugga equipped models in a mob? I may not have a Doctorate in Mathematics, but they both seem pretty easy. We're also not debating a player's counting ability. We're debating interpretation of the rules.

I'm going to go back to this statement...

"The entire mob can upgrade their Nobz to Painboyz ...10pts/model"

I have a 10 man squad with 9 Boyz and 1 Nob. I choose to use the above upgrade. How much am I paying?

I believe what Kriswall is trying to point to is this:

1 slugga boy = 6 points always
1 shoota boy = 7 points always
1 big shoota or rokkit boy = 11 points always

It shouldn't matter what order/what that boy had before. The special gun upgrade costs 11 points to bring to the table.

 Spydermonkey1351 wrote:
I believe what Kriswall is trying to point to is this:

1 slugga boy = 6 points always
1 shoota boy = 7 points always
1 big shoota or rokkit boy = 11 points always

It shouldn't matter what order/what that boy had before. The special gun upgrade costs 11 points to bring to the table.

I'd go a little farther...

1 slugga boy = 6 points
1 shoota boy = 7 points
1 slugga boy who trades his slugga in for a big shoota, thus becoming a big shoota boy = 11 points
1 shoota boy who trades his shoota in for a big shoota, thus becoming a big shoota boy = 12 points

So, it is to your advantage, albeit only by 1 point, to have a slugga boy trade in his gun for a big shoota before the rest of his mob become shoota boyz. Order of operations is critically important to this discussion.

The core of the issue seems to be that I don't think a MODEL can pay the PER MODEL upgrade cost without performing the upgrade. The opposing side does.

I do agree that the entire mob has to take the upgrade, i.e. that you can't choose to upgrade SOME of the sluggas, but not all. My stance is that upgrading a 10 man mob with only 9 sluggas results in 9 MODELS swapping slugga for shoota and we're paying PER MODEL. 9 MODELS at 1 point PER MODEL is 9 points. If you can explain to me how that 10th MODEL can swap his slugga (he doesn't have one) for a shoota to activate the PER MODEL cost, I will happily concede.

I acknowledge that PER MODEL can mean "per model in the mob" or "per model who swaps". HIWPI is "per model who swaps" for the reasons above.

Ed: completely changed my views looking at the Space Marine Codex.

"The entire squad may remove their jump packs, changing their unit type to infantry. (...)"

Are you allowed to remove only 9 jump packs in the squad of 10 to get the Drop Pod? No

" The entire mob may replace their sluggas with shootas"

Can one choose not to replace? No

I think I would pay the 1point not to have to have this discussion around the table. It does seem stupid to pay for somthing that isn't used but until it's totaly 100% clear (FAQ) then I would say better to pay the points and buy immunity to complaints from opponents.

For every 60 boys you are loosing one if you take the maximum amount of special weapons. It could be worse. We play orks, we are used to loosing boyz.

Congrats you have just gotten 3pts extra per squad of. 30 boyz with 3 big shootas.

*slow clap*

Edited. Confused slugga/choppa

Havoc0013 wrote:
If you must upgrade a RANGED weapon to a big shoot a or rock it kauncha, where do you get the ability to upgrade from a slugga? That isn't a RANGED weapon.

The slugga is a pistol. It most definitely is a ranged weapon.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Ed: completely changed my views looking at the Space Marine Codex.

"The entire squad may remove their jump packs, changing their unit type to infantry. (...)"

Are you allowed to remove only 9 jump packs in the squad of 10 to get the Drop Pod? No

" The entire mob may replace their sluggas with shootas"

Can one choose not to replace? No

If the squad only had 9 jump packs, then yes, you would only remove 9 jump packs. This isn't a useful comparison because you're talking about a unit where EVERY model has the piece of wargear being modified. I'm not. Only SOME of my models have the wargear.

I'm not choosing NOT to replace wargear. I'm replacing all 9 sluggas. The entire mob's worth of sluggas. If the entire mob had 10 sluggas, I would replace all 10. I'm doing what the unit entry is instructing me to do. I'm replacing the entire mob's worth of sluggas at the rate of 1 point per model. 9 sluggas, 9 models, 9 points. I can't replace the slugga on the 10th model, because he doesn't have one. Hence, I'm not paying 1 point to do so.


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DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Congrats you have just gotten 3pts extra per squad of. 30 boyz with 3 big shootas.

*slow clap*

Thanks for the sarcasm! It adds a lot to an academic rules debate. (Sarcasm, in case you couldn't tell )

HIWPI? I could care less. We're talking about a nominal points amount. I play Farsight Enclaves. Killing Orks is what we do. I don't care how many points they cost.

The reality of the situation is that the wording CAN be interpreted (insomuch as it IS being interpreted) either way and would require an FAQ to clear up. I'd also bet money GW will never FAQ this.

Another point i'd like to make here is the order of choosing.

I have noticed (and therefore precedence) that in Codex: Adepta Sororitas, that the option read from top to bottom.

So:
• The entire mob may replace their sluggas with shootas…1 pt/model
• For every ten models in the unit, one Ork Boy may replace their ranged weapon with one of the following: - Big shoota…

Is a very different situation to:
• For every ten models in the unit, one Ork Boy may replace their ranged weapon with one of the following: - Big shoota…
• The entire mob may replace their sluggas with shootas…1 pt/model

In the codex.

Example in Codex: AS:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Another point i'd like to make here is the order of choosing.

I have noticed (and therefore precedence) that in Codex: Adepta Sororitas, that the option read from top to bottom.

So:
• The entire mob may replace their sluggas with shootas…1 pt/model
• For every ten models in the unit, one Ork Boy may replace their ranged weapon with one of the following: - Big shoota…

Is a very different situation to:
• For every ten models in the unit, one Ork Boy may replace their ranged weapon with one of the following: - Big shoota…
• The entire mob may replace their sluggas with shootas…1 pt/model

In the codex.

Example in Codex: AS:

Spoiler:

Options:
-May include up to five additional Dominions - xx pts/model
-One dominion may take a Simulacrum Imperialis - xx pts
- Four other Dominions may take items from the Special Weapons list.

In the English language, everything typically is read from top to bottom. Left to right, also! I'm not sure how that's relevant here.

Order of upgrade entries doesn't matter. This has never mattered. The two examples above (Ork Codex) are identical. Applying one before the other creates a different situation, but there is nothing to prevent you from taking the big shoota before upgrading from sluggas to shootas.

Also, I'm not sure how your AS example is relevant. It makes no difference in what order I take the upgrades. If I start with a 5 model squad with 4 Dominions and one of whatever the Dominion Sarge is called, I have 4. I can then give one a Simulacrum Imperialis, give three special weapons, take 5 more and then give a fourth a special weapon. That I didn't have enough models in the squad when I equipped the first 3 "other Dominions" doesn't somehow mean that the fourth "other Dominion" can't have a special weapon when she joins the squad.

No, if you randomised the use of the bullet points, you could take "four other" from the sarge, then pick one of those 4 and give it a Simulacrum. What says you can't do that?

But we know full well it is wrong and the other way around: you may take the Simulacrum, and 4 Other models can take Special weapons. Which "other"? The "other" from the 1 who has the Simulacrum.

So which way is it in the Ork codex?
Sluggas replaced first, or Big shoota first?

And yes it does matter. From the OP's post, it seems you must make the choice of Sluggas/ Shootas first.

And if that is the first choice you make, there is absolutely no issue whatsoever and this discussion can end.

To understand what is meant by "other Dominions" you revert to basic reading skills and use context to determine what is meant.

"Other" clearly refers to Dominions who do not have a Simulacrum Imperialis.

So, I pick a squad and equip the 4 Dominions with special weapons, effectively designating them as others. I now want to take a Simulacrum Imperialis. But I can't, because I don't have any Dominions that haven't already been designating as "others". This example is more about basic reading comprehension and understanding what "other" means in this context.

I will agree that everything would be far easier if GW had said "You have to select from the upgrades in the order in which they are presented.", but they did not say this. Choosing in order only seems natural because we read (and typically process information) from top to bottom in English.

shouldnt even be a debate on this....

models with NO SLUGGA TO REPLACE because they have a special wepaon

cannot pay 1 pt to replace that non existant slugga with a shoota,

 easysauce wrote:
shouldnt even be a debate on this....

models with NO SLUGGA TO REPLACE because they have a special wepaon

cannot pay 1 pt to replace that non existant slugga with a shoota,

So the unit can not take shootas, in that case.

or the whole mob can replace their sluggas,

hence the whole mob replaces their sluggas,

if everyone in the mob with a slugga replaces it, then the whole mobs has in fact replaced their sluggas,

that a few had none to replace, doesnt change that.

regardless,

the answer is no, you dont pay an extra pt tax either way,


taking ONE strict interpretaion of RAW means that shoota boys cant take special weapons AT ALL (not the probably, sensical, or fair interpretation, but one you can make)

the other interpretation, is that those who replace, pay the pt those who dont dont.

In response to Insaniak:

Sure they can. What about the entire mob being allowed to upgrade their sluggas to shootas requires that every model in the mob have a slugga to upgrade?

Mob of 10 Boyz. 9 have sluggas. You upgrade all 9 to shootas. Did the entire mob upgrade their sluggas to shootas? Yes.

 easysauce wrote:
or the whole mob can replace their sluggas,

hence the whole mob replaces their sluggas,

if everyone in the mob with a slugga replaces it, then the whole mobs has in fact replaced their sluggas,

that a few had none to replace, doesnt change that.

regardless,

the answer is no, you dont pay an extra pt tax either way,


taking ONE strict interpretaion of RAW means that shoota boys cant take special weapons AT ALL (not the probably, sensical, or fair interpretation, but one you can make)

the other interpretation, is that those who replace, pay the pt those who dont dont.

Except you do pay the 'extra point tax' because you adding "... with a slugga" to the cost. You pay one point per model in the mob, not one point per model in the mob with a slugga.

 Kriswall wrote:
To understand what is meant by "other Dominions" you revert to basic reading skills and use context to determine what is meant.

"Other" clearly refers to Dominions who do not have a Simulacrum Imperialis.

So, I pick a squad and equip the 4 Dominions with special weapons, effectively designating them as others. I now want to take a Simulacrum Imperialis. But I can't, because I don't have any Dominions that haven't already been designating as "others". This example is more about basic reading comprehension and understanding what "other" means in this context.

I will agree that everything would be far easier if GW had said "You have to select from the upgrades in the order in which they are presented.", but they did not say this. Choosing in order only seems natural because we read (and typically process information) from top to bottom in English.

I disagree. There is no clear "other" unless you refer to the point above it. The 4th point is "The dominion Superior may take melta bombs." What is there to say "other than the superior" for the special weapons? Nothing apart from bullet point order.

GW writes the entire BrB in "order". They never put the rules for Assault phase before the rules for Movement phase.

There is a reason for the order of options in Codexes, or prove to me one won't work with a concrete example. I have a few others for you if you disagree:

Kroot Carnivore Squad
1- May include up to ten additional Kroot
2- May include up to three Krootox Riders
3- May uprgade one Kroot to a Shaper
4- A shaper may exchange his Kroot rifle for either a pulse rifle or a pulse carbine
5- May upgrade all models with Kroot rifles to take sniper rounds -1pt/model.

How can you do 4 without doing 3 first?
5 is quite clear that in a squad of 10, if you've done 3 & 4 then you only pay 9 points.

Ork codex will be the same:
You must pay 10pts to swap Slugga first.
-Then you pick heavy weapons for additional cost.

Lo and Behold ! It works and there is no issue !


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Otherwise you could pay for your Big Shoota, then pay 9pts for the swap and THEN buy another 10 boys with Sluggas?

What is stopping you from picking your own order?

 Ghaz wrote:

Except you do pay the 'extra point tax' because you adding "... with a slugga" to the cost. You pay one point per model in the mob, not one point per model in the mob with a slugga.

strictly speaking: yes you do. its the exact wording:

The entire mob may replace their sluggas with shootas…1 pt/model

how can a model replace its slugga with a shoota if it doesnt have a slugga?
would you allow a model in the mob to get an bigshoota if it didnt have a ranged weapon?
thats the reason why you cant have

the entire mob means everybody that qualifies need to pay for the upgrade. you cannot get shootas for just 10 models while 20 retain their sluggaz.

its the same reason SAG/KFF big meks cant have a megaarmnour. the SAG/KFF replaces the slugga. MA replaces slugga and choppa, since the Bmek doesnt have a slugga anymore you cant upgrade it with a MA - and vice versa.

so if you dont have a slugga you cant replace it with a shoota - hence no "tax"


that beeing said... we are talking about a 3 point save in a 265 point unit... also i like round numbers... makes math much easier


EDIT:

 BlackTalos wrote:

How can you do 4 without doing 3 first?

you cant, thats the point. thats why order doesnt matter.
to do 4 you have to do 3 first. its implied by the rules not order.

The models that qualify for the upgrade and the points you pay are not based on the same criteria, yet you're under the false assumption that it is. You still pay one point per every model in the mob to upgrade, whether that model can make use of the upgrade or not.

 Ghaz wrote:
The models that qualify for the upgrade and the points you pay are not based on the same criteria [...]

how did you come up with this?

it clearly says: "the entire mob may replace their sluggas with shootas…1 pt/model"
replace their sluggas with shootas
how am i qualified to do that, if i dont have a slugga?

furthermore it says their sluggas, so only models qualify which have a slugga.

for me its the same with the big mek:
A Big Mek may replace his slugga and choppa with mega armour, kustom mega-blasta and power klaw…40 pts

if i dont have a slugga and a choppa i cant replace it with other stuff.

also... if i take a bmek with megaarmour, following your logic, i could take on of these:
A Big Mek may replace his slugga with one of the following:
- Kustom force field…50 pts
- Shokk attack gun…50 pts

since the qualification to take one of those is being a bigmek (the entire mob) and totally ignoring the "replace" part (may replace their sluggas with shootas)


again im not trying to take an advantage of any kind, since i mosty play friendly games where 3points dont matter... but striclty following the rules you dont have to pay any "taxes"

And again, it's one point per model, period. Not one point per model upgrading his slugga to a shoota.

So the mob upgrades any and all sluggas at the cost of one point per model in the mob.

RedNoak wrote:
the entire mob means everybody that qualifies need to pay for the upgrade.

Then why did they not word it like the Tau Codex?
"May upgrade all models with Kroot rifles to take sniper rounds -1pt/model."

Clearly that states "all the ones with those weapons", not "the entire mob may". Very different.

"the entire mob may" is the same as "The entire unit may take the Bonding Knife Ritual". Same unit, Clear separation of rules, precedence, and point disproved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RedNoak wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

How can you do 4 without doing 3 first?

you cant, thats the point. thats why order doesnt matter.
to do 4 you have to do 3 first. its implied by the rules not order.

 Kriswall wrote:
It makes no difference in what order I take the upgrades.

The order does matter. You cannot pick option 4 then option 3. You cannot exchange the weapon on a Nob if you haven't bought the Nob upgrade first.

 BlackTalos wrote:

RedNoak wrote:
the entire mob means everybody that qualifies need to pay for the upgrade.

Then why did they not word it like the Tau Codex?
"May upgrade all models with Kroot rifles to take sniper rounds -1pt/model."

Clearly that states "all the ones with those weapons", not "the entire mob may". Very different.

"the entire mob may" is the same as "The entire unit may take the Bonding Knife Ritual". Same unit, Clear separation of rules, precedence, and point disproved.

The reason the Kroot entry is written that way is that some of the models added to the unit (the hounds and the Krootox) never had a rifle to begin with. The kind of precedent tha would actually clear this up would be another case where a model must pay for an upgrade that it no longer possesses before it hits the table. My position is that you can't charge for something you don't have in the final list. This excludes cases where a single model can upgrade, because this is a case where the upgrade is (arguably) necessary for the model's neighbor to receive the upgrade.

On a side note, in this debate the thing that I find irritating, bordering on infuriating, is people who act like it's obviously clear one way or the other. There is legitimate room for disagreement here.