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As an Ork player, I really don't see the big deal in this. It's 1 point. 1. Even in a 2k game, I only take maybe two squadsof 20 Boyz, but i don't typically give them the Special Weapon because...Ork shooting. I just stick with the regular shootas. But, if I DID do this, I'd only lose...4 points. 4. Thats only enough to buy a Grot, or MAYBE some other minor upgrade that wouldn't be worth the points ANYWAY.

I get using redundant points sucks. But we still have one of the cheapest armies in the entire game (point wise). It's really not that big of a deal, nor worth actually arguing about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RedNoak wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
The models that qualify for the upgrade and the points you pay are not based on the same criteria [...]

how did you come up with this?

it clearly says: "the entire mob may replace their sluggas with shootas…1 pt/model"
replace their sluggas with shootas
how am i qualified to do that, if i dont have a slugga?

furthermore it says their sluggas, so only models qualify which have a slugga.

for me its the same with the big mek:
A Big Mek may replace his slugga and choppa with mega armour, kustom mega-blasta and power klaw…40 pts

if i dont have a slugga and a choppa i cant replace it with other stuff.

also... if i take a bmek with megaarmour, following your logic, i could take on of these:
A Big Mek may replace his slugga with one of the following:
- Kustom force field…50 pts
- Shokk attack gun…50 pts

since the qualification to take one of those is being a bigmek (the entire mob) and totally ignoring the "replace" part (may replace their sluggas with shootas)


again im not trying to take an advantage of any kind, since i mosty play friendly games where 3points dont matter... but striclty following the rules you dont have to pay any "taxes"

But a Big Mek can take a KFF with Mega Armor, just not SAG. Right in it's entry, says if it takes MA, it may replace it's Telyporta Blasta with KFF. So, that example doesn't really work.

Here's the details that get me.

"The entire mob"
"1pt/model"

It's clear what the intent here was. To make a unit of shoota boys, the whole unit costs an extra 1 pt per model. Don't be tfg and argue this RAW by trying to interpose 1pt/model(with a slugga).

The language to upgrade to a big shoota says their ranged weapon, so it's meant to be done after you decide whether or not you want slugga boyz or shoota boyz.

If someone came at me with this argument and supposition before the game started I wouldn't want to play them. It's clear they are reading rules for advantage and will take the game too far and take the fun out of the game.

 The Good Green wrote:
One last question, Kris. Has anyone on Dakka agreed with you on this point? Or have we all bee saying the same few things to counter your argument? I haven't read the entire thread, just the posts I thought I needed to read.

I completely agree with Kris. And it has been faq'ed in the ork faq.

Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas
with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a
big choppa?
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big
choppa or power klaw before you choose to
upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case
the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon
swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap),
does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga
and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
happier that way!

osirisx69 wrote:

 The Good Green wrote:
One last question, Kris. Has anyone on Dakka agreed with you on this point? Or have we all bee saying the same few things to counter your argument? I haven't read the entire thread, just the posts I thought I needed to read.

I completely agree with Kris. And it has been faq'ed in the ork faq.

Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas
with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a
big choppa?
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big
choppa or power klaw before you choose to
upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case
the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon
swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap),
does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga
and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
happier that way!

And please tell us where that changes the price from 'the entire mob' to 'the entire mob equipped with sluggas'. Simply put, it doesn't.

There was a faq regarding the lasts codex and flash gitz.

the question was something like: does the painboy pay 5pts when the unit decides to upgrade its weapons with more dakka? (5 points per model)

Answer: no, as he has no snazzgun.

Sadly I dont have that faq anymore as I relied on GWs webside, but the wording is kinda like the wording for the shoota upgrade. Therefore I think its RAI that you dont "pay" 6 points for a rokkit in a shoota mob.

 Ghaz wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

 The Good Green wrote:
One last question, Kris. Has anyone on Dakka agreed with you on this point? Or have we all bee saying the same few things to counter your argument? I haven't read the entire thread, just the posts I thought I needed to read.

I completely agree with Kris. And it has been faq'ed in the ork faq.

Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas
with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a
big choppa?
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big
choppa or power klaw before you choose to
upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case
the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon
swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap),
does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga
and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
happier that way!

And please tell us where that changes the price from 'the entire mob' to 'the entire mob equipped with sluggas'. Simply put, it doesn't.

Simple put it doesn't have to. I purchase my big shoota which changes out my choppas and slugga then I purchase my shootas for the rest that have sluggas.

osirisx69 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

 The Good Green wrote:
One last question, Kris. Has anyone on Dakka agreed with you on this point? Or have we all bee saying the same few things to counter your argument? I haven't read the entire thread, just the posts I thought I needed to read.

I completely agree with Kris. And it has been faq'ed in the ork faq.

Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas
with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a
big choppa?
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big
choppa or power klaw before you choose to
upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case
the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon
swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap),
does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga
and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
happier that way!

And please tell us where that changes the price from 'the entire mob' to 'the entire mob equipped with sluggas'. Simply put, it doesn't.

Simple put it doesn't have to. I purchase my big shoota which changes out my choppas and slugga then I purchase my shootas for the rest that have sluggas.

Yes it does, because the price is linked to the number of models in the mob, not the number of models with sluggas. You're making the same assumption which has been disproven multiple times in this thread,

 Ghaz wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

 The Good Green wrote:
One last question, Kris. Has anyone on Dakka agreed with you on this point? Or have we all bee saying the same few things to counter your argument? I haven't read the entire thread, just the posts I thought I needed to read.

I completely agree with Kris. And it has been faq'ed in the ork faq.

Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas
with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a
big choppa?
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big
choppa or power klaw before you choose to
upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case
the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon
swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap),
does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga
and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
happier that way!

And please tell us where that changes the price from 'the entire mob' to 'the entire mob equipped with sluggas'. Simply put, it doesn't.

Simple put it doesn't have to. I purchase my big shoota which changes out my choppas and slugga then I purchase my shootas for the rest that have sluggas.

Yes it does, because the price is linked to the number of models in the mob, not the number of models with sluggas. You're making the same assumption which has been disproven multiple times in this thread,

nothing has been disproven. In fact the FAQ even more proves it. You can go on and keep moving the goal post. The fact is there is no order when you do your updates and RAW CLEARLY states you must REPLACE!!!! a slugga and choppa with a shoota .

That's it.... anything else is just making rules up as you go.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
• [b]The entire mob may replace their sluggas with shootas…1 pt/model[/b]

• For every ten models in the unit, one Ork Boy may replace their ranged weapon with one of
the following:
- Big shoota…
- Rokkit launcha…

Do i have to pay this extra 1 point for a shoota that's gona get replaced with a special weapon?

Read the bold underlined

Yes, and the cost to do so is one point per model in the unit. You're making things up if you say ptherwise

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, and the cost to do so is one point per model in the unit. You're making things up if you say ptherwise

Cite page and para please where it states you must pay 1 point per model even if they have no slugga or choppa to trade in?

Oh wait.... that's right you can't cause it does not exist. Illogical leaps lead to illogical conclusions.

RAW State it must, must , must, replace a slugga and choppa. That is definitive and proven.

Does the model have a slugga and choppa to replace? No? then you do not pay the cost...RAW

osirisx69 wrote:
nothing has been disproven. In fact the FAQ even more proves it. You can go on and keep moving the goal post. The fact is there is no order when you do your updates and RAW CLEARLY states you must REPLACE!!!! a slugga and choppa with a shoota .

That's it.... anything else is just making rules up as you go.....

Sorry, but you're mistaken. The FAQ has nothing to do with the price of the upgrade. The upgrade and the price of said upgrade are two separate things. It is not based on who takes the upgrade, but the number of models in the mob. Perhaps you should read what the rule actually says before you claim someone is making up rule, because at this time it's you who's making up rules. You're making up the rule that somehow the number of models taking the upgrade somehow influences the cost. It doesn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

osirisx69 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, and the cost to do so is one point per model in the unit. You're making things up if you say ptherwise

Cite page and para please where it states you must pay 1 point per model even if they have no slugga or choppa to trade in?

Oh wait.... that's right you can't cause it does not exist. Illogical leaps lead to illogical conclusions.

RAW State it must, must , must, replace a slugga and choppa. That is definitive and proven.

Does the model have a slugga and choppa to replace? No? then you do not pay the cost...RAW

We have. It's right there in black and white when it says "The entire mob" and not "All of the models in the mob with sluggas". We have provided the RAW. You have not.

 Ghaz wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:
nothing has been disproven. In fact the FAQ even more proves it. You can go on and keep moving the goal post. The fact is there is no order when you do your updates and RAW CLEARLY states you must REPLACE!!!! a slugga and choppa with a shoota .

That's it.... anything else is just making rules up as you go.....

Sorry, but you're mistaken. The FAQ has nothing to do with the price of the upgrade. The upgrade and the price of said upgrade are two separate things. It is not based on who takes the upgrade, but the number of models in the mob. Perhaps you should read what the rule actually says before you claim someone is making up rule, because at this time it's you who's making up rules. You're making up the rule that somehow the number of models taking the upgrade somehow influences the cost. It doesn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

osirisx69 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, and the cost to do so is one point per model in the unit. You're making things up if you say ptherwise

Cite page and para please where it states you must pay 1 point per model even if they have no slugga or choppa to trade in?

Oh wait.... that's right you can't cause it does not exist. Illogical leaps lead to illogical conclusions.

RAW State it must, must , must, replace a slugga and choppa. That is definitive and proven.

Does the model have a slugga and choppa to replace? No? then you do not pay the cost...RAW

We have. It's right there in black and white when it says "The entire mob" and not "All of the models in the mob with sluggas". We have provided the RAW. You have not.

Why do you insist on taking words out of context? The entire sentence is very clear. RAW you must replace slugga and choppa with shootas. if they don't have a slugga and choppas you don't replace.. You don't replace the nobs slugga and choppa and he is part of the ENTIRE SQUAD! Notice how you have to have a slugga and choppa to replace? GW faq'ed it in so this silly debate wouldn't even happen.....

Bold and underlined sentence complete and total fallacy made up by you.....I am not making a rule up I am follow the rules to the letter.

We're not taking anything out of context. It seems however that you are. The price is determined by how many models are in the mob, nothing else.

osirisx69 wrote:

 The Good Green wrote:
One last question, Kris. Has anyone on Dakka agreed with you on this point? Or have we all bee saying the same few things to counter your argument? I haven't read the entire thread, just the posts I thought I needed to read.

I completely agree with Kris. And it has been faq'ed in the ork faq.

Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas
with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a
big choppa?
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big
choppa or power klaw before you choose to
upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case
the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon
swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap),
does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga
and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
happier that way!

Might want to mention that this is from the old 6th ed FAQ, so may or may not apply.

Re the question. Who cares, it's 1 point.

 Ghaz wrote:
We're not taking anything out of context. It seems however that you are. The price is determined by how many models are in the mob, nothing else.

You're wrong per GW own FAQ.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 don_mondo wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

 The Good Green wrote:
One last question, Kris. Has anyone on Dakka agreed with you on this point? Or have we all bee saying the same few things to counter your argument? I haven't read the entire thread, just the posts I thought I needed to read.

I completely agree with Kris. And it has been faq'ed in the ork faq.

Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas
with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a
big choppa?
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big
choppa or power klaw before you choose to
upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case
the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon
swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap),
does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga
and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
happier that way!

Might want to mention that this is from the old 6th ed FAQ, so may or may not apply.

Re the question. Who cares, it's 1 point.

That's the only FAQ orks have.. are you implying that we should ignore the FAQ's now? Or did you just not know there is not a 7th edition FAQ yet? Its not 1 point its 12 points. 4 mobs of 30 boyz. 12 points is a big gun almost.

osirisx69 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
We're not taking anything out of context. It seems however that you are. The price is determined by how many models are in the mob, nothing else.

You're wrong per GW own FAQ.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 don_mondo wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

 The Good Green wrote:
One last question, Kris. Has anyone on Dakka agreed with you on this point? Or have we all bee saying the same few things to counter your argument? I haven't read the entire thread, just the posts I thought I needed to read.

I completely agree with Kris. And it has been faq'ed in the ork faq.

Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas
with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a
big choppa?
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big
choppa or power klaw before you choose to
upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case
the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon
swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap),
does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga
and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
happier that way!

Might want to mention that this is from the old 6th ed FAQ, so may or may not apply.

Re the question. Who cares, it's 1 point.

That's the only FAQ orks have.. are you implying that we should ignore the FAQ's now? Or did you just not know there is not a 7th edition FAQ yet? Its not 1 point its 12 points. 4 mobs of 30 boyz. 12 points is a big gun almost.

Wait.... are you seriously using the FAQ from the now outdated Ork Codex for the now outdated 6th edition, to justify an argument on something within the new codex and current edition that isn't even directly referenced by said FAQ? I think you just lost all credibility.

chanceafs wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
We're not taking anything out of context. It seems however that you are. The price is determined by how many models are in the mob, nothing else.

You're wrong per GW own FAQ.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 don_mondo wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

 The Good Green wrote:
One last question, Kris. Has anyone on Dakka agreed with you on this point? Or have we all bee saying the same few things to counter your argument? I haven't read the entire thread, just the posts I thought I needed to read.

I completely agree with Kris. And it has been faq'ed in the ork faq.

Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas
with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a
big choppa?
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big
choppa or power klaw before you choose to
upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case
the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon
swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap),
does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga
and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
happier that way!

Might want to mention that this is from the old 6th ed FAQ, so may or may not apply.

Re the question. Who cares, it's 1 point.

That's the only FAQ orks have.. are you implying that we should ignore the FAQ's now? Or did you just not know there is not a 7th edition FAQ yet? Its not 1 point its 12 points. 4 mobs of 30 boyz. 12 points is a big gun almost.

Wait.... are you seriously using the FAQ from the now outdated Ork Codex for the now outdated 6th edition, to justify an argument on something within the new codex and current edition that isn't even directly referenced by said FAQ? I think you just lost all credibility.

out of context

osirisx69 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

Might want to mention that this is from the old 6th ed FAQ, so may or may not apply.

Re the question. Who cares, it's 1 point.

That's the only FAQ orks have.. are you implying that we should ignore the FAQ's now? Or did you just not know there is not a 7th edition FAQ yet? Its not 1 point its 12 points. 4 mobs of 30 boyz. 12 points is a big gun almost.

Did I say that we should ignore the old FAQs, or did I say that you should mention the source that you are using? Wouldn't want to intentionally mislead someone into thinking that a new FAQ had come out, now would we?

Actually, as chanceafs pointed out (and I missed), it's not an FAQ at all any more as it references a previous version of the codex. So it's the only FAQ you USED to have for a previous version of the codex. And you're trying to use it to support a rules argument for a codex that it was not written for?!? Doh!! Seriously? but tell you what, if I can use the FAQ from the 4th ed codex for my IG....

But to answer your questions.
No, I don't think we should ignore the FAQs, even tho GW has taken them down and seems to be unwilling or unable to put them back up. However, we should also only use them for the codex version that they were posted for. And some of the FAQ bits are obviously not going to apply any more due to rules changes in 7th.

I (obviously) know that there is not a VIABLE FAQ for 7th, altho there are what GW posted to the Black Library pages and are currently calling FAQs, even tho they barely address some of the necessary rules bits to use the older codexes in 7th and have (maybe) only two or three actually FAQ items amongst them.

Ok, whoopee, 1 point per gun, max it would cost if you took 6 mobs of 30 is what, 18 points? Oooooo, wow, I'm impressed... NOT.

Wait a new FAQ came out? I thought it was still v1.0 from mid-July.

 Happyjew wrote:
Wait a new FAQ came out? I thought it was still v1.0 from mid-July.

No, the only Ork FAQ currently posted is the old codex 24 July version. Sorry....

Aww, I got all excited for a FAQ for an army that I don't play...

Osirix - as explained, before you cited an out of date FAQ for the previous codex, the only population you gp have is the entire mob. Nothing else.

Actually, you aren't performing an action on the entire mob. You're performing an action on a portion of the models in the mob. The action taking place is replacing and the population is "their sluggas". I would argue that the population in question is the object of the phrase, namely "their sluggas" and that you pay for this replacement on a per replacement basis at the cost of one point per model.

Ok, thank you osirisx for relating the FAQ Q&A. Unfortunately it has no relation to points cost versus gear upgrades. It only states that the nob doesn't change his gear. This is probably due to the upgrade being free in the applicable codex for that FAQ. So I am still left with the feeling that the "Entire Mob" would be paying for the upgrade.

I see that the answer definitely points out the the upgrade don't need to be taken in order though, which does clear up part of the argument for some, if it hasn't already been.

Just to reiterate my point, the group that is called on to pay for the upgrade is the "entire mob" not just the boyz that make the trade. Because the rule does not say anything to the effect of "every boy" or "boyz with sluggas" or "slugga boyz", but instead says "entire mob" I have no reason to think that some part of the mob can avoid paying for the upgrade.

I also think it's funny that this is all over, at most, 3 points. ;D

 Kriswall wrote:
Actually, you aren't performing an action on the entire mob. You're performing an action on a portion of the models in the mob. The action taking place is replacing and the population is "their sluggas". I would argue that the population in question is the object of the phrase, namely "their sluggas" and that you pay for this replacement on a per replacement basis at the cost of one point per model.

No, the action is on the entire mob, the replacement is per model, but the entire mob performs the replacement. Again, there is no way, from the text, to get to "per model with slugga" , as the size is set by the only thing mentioned- the mob

 The Good Green wrote:
Ok, thank you osirisx for relating the FAQ Q&A. Unfortunately it has no relation to points cost versus gear upgrades. It only states that the nob doesn't change his gear. This is probably due to the upgrade being free in the applicable codex for that FAQ. So I am still left with the feeling that the "Entire Mob" would be paying for the upgrade.

I see that the answer definitely points out the the upgrade don't need to be taken in order though, which does clear up part of the argument for some, if it hasn't already been.

Just to reiterate my point, the group that is called on to pay for the upgrade is the "entire mob" not just the boyz that make the trade. Because the rule does not say anything to the effect of "every boy" or "boyz with sluggas" or "slugga boyz", but instead says "entire mob" I have no reason to think that some part of the mob can avoid paying for the upgrade.

I also think it's funny that this is all over, at most, 3 points. ;D

Haha. Yeah. In an actual gaming situation, I wouldn't care at all. In the real, non-gaming world I'm a process engineer and software designer. For me, being extremely specific in your rules is very important. In a gaming situation I routinely let people "go over by just a few points". I can't tell you how many games I've played where it's my 1500 versus his/her 1550-1600. Some people just don't understand "a few points"!