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So then Logan does not benefit from the armor if he is hit on the non vehicle profile? ?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Terminator Armor is wargear. The effects of wargear only apply to the model wearing/utilizing said wargear unless otherwise specified.

And the chariot rules specify that they're treated as a single model. So if the wargear prevents the model from SA, and the chariot is the same model, the wargear prevents the chariot from doing a SA.

Cite rules that contradict that.

Fragile wrote:
So then Logan does not benefit from the armor if he is hit on the non vehicle profile? ?

Of course he benefits from the armor. If you're allocating wounds, wounds can be allocated directly to him.

The only reason this is an issue is because seemingly people want it to be one. Common sense dictates that one take these two points into account:
1) Is the Chariot able to Sweeping Advance? (Yes unless they are Stunned)
2) Does it specify in Logan Grimnar's special rules that Stormrider cannot make a Sweeping Advance? (Genuinely curious on that note) If it does not, then there is no reason to limit the Sweeping Advance. The Chariot is not the one wearing the Terminator Armor but rather Logan Grimnar is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Terminator Armor is wargear. The effects of wargear only apply to the model wearing/utilizing said wargear unless otherwise specified.

And the chariot rules specify that they're treated as a single model. So if the wargear prevents the model from SA, and the chariot is the same model, the wargear prevents the chariot from doing a SA.

Cite rules that contradict that.

Cite the rules that wargear effects apply to Chariots or transports as standard. Because there is a reason that the Kustom Force Field text reads the way it does.

 Kanluwen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Terminator Armor is wargear. The effects of wargear only apply to the model wearing/utilizing said wargear unless otherwise specified.

And the chariot rules specify that they're treated as a single model. So if the wargear prevents the model from SA, and the chariot is the same model, the wargear prevents the chariot from doing a SA.

Cite rules that contradict that.

Cite the rules that wargear effects apply to Chariots or transports as standard. Because there is a reason that the Kustom Force Field text reads the way it does.

Chariots are not transports, so the underlined doesn't apply.
I have cited rules. The chariot rules, specifically, when they say

However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model.

See the word "always"? Now, do me a favor and cite an actual rule that contradicts that - because you're attempting to treat them separately and I'd like to know why.
Stop trying to apply Transport rules to this situation - they don't apply. They're not the same. You're failing to understand how the rules work. Is there another way you'd like that phrased?
You bringing up the KFF is a perfect demonstration of your lack of understanding.

Kan - again, we have a single model here. One. Singular.

Is the model prohibited from making a sweeping advance? Yes, because the MODEL has a piece of wargear that styates it may not sweeping advance.

You lack *any* rules to back up why you are ignoring the plain written rule, to whit that the chariot is always treateed as a single model.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Terminator Armor is wargear. The effects of wargear only apply to the model wearing/utilizing said wargear unless otherwise specified.

And the chariot rules specify that they're treated as a single model. So if the wargear prevents the model from SA, and the chariot is the same model, the wargear prevents the chariot from doing a SA.

Cite rules that contradict that.

Cite the rules that wargear effects apply to Chariots or transports as standard. Because there is a reason that the Kustom Force Field text reads the way it does.

Chariots are not transports, so the underlined doesn't apply.
I have cited rules. The chariot rules, specifically, when they say

However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model.

See the word "always"? Now, do me a favor and cite an actual rule that contradicts that - because you're attempting to treat them separately and I'd like to know why.

I'm using common sense.

I understand that is a rare and difficult thing to understand, but really. Try using it. Common sense dictates that while it is written as "treated as a single model", it also says that Chariots are themselves treated as Infantry and make Sweeping Advances.

So once again: Show me in Grimnar's profile where it explicitly states that Stormrider does not make Sweeping Advances.

Stop trying to apply Transport rules to this situation - they don't apply. They're not the same. You're failing to understand how the rules work. Is there another way you'd like that phrased?
You bringing up the KFF is a perfect demonstration of your lack of understanding.

I would suggest you tone down the "lack of understanding" seeing as how you completely missed the point.

I brought up the KFF because it explicitly states that the effect applies to the vehicle when the model utilizing the Wargear boards it.

Kan - ah, so youre not actually arguing from a rules basis then?

Please mark your posts as "HYWPI", as per the tenets of this forum

Oh, and we dont have to show it to that specific level - we have a more specific rule, that a model with terminator armour cannot sweeping advance. YOU are required to show the specific permission that the chariot model CAN sweeping advance, despite hte model disallowing it.

Fair enough nosferatu. I don't generally go into "YMDC".

I just find this train of logic ridiculous, as it is the same that some local players have been trying to use to justify not giving Terminator models Invulnerable Saves against AP2 attacks--unless they have a Storm Shield.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Terminator Armor is wargear. The effects of wargear only apply to the model wearing/utilizing said wargear unless otherwise specified.

So, again, unless specifically stated in Grimnar's profile that "Stormrider cannot Sweeping Advance because of Grimnar being in Terminator Armor"--he can advance while riding the Chariot.

Exactly TDA prevents a MODEL from performing a sweep, a chariot and its rider are A MODEL. No sweeps.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Fair enough nosferatu. I don't generally go into "YMDC".

I just find this train of logic ridiculous, as it is the same that some local players have been trying to use to justify not giving Terminator models Invulnerable Saves against AP2 attacks--unless they have a Storm Shield.

Its not that odd a train of logic - youre told the TDA stops the model from making sweeping advances, and you are told to treat, at all times, the chariot and rider as one model. So the model has a restriction on sweeping, that you need to find a way around.

What argument are people making around termie saves??

i would have let anyone sweep me with logans chariot! but raw specify that if a model with terminator armour joins a unit, he prevents the whole unit from running and sweeping. so that would go to the he cant argument, and even if you were looking at them as 2 separate models it would prevent the sweep. maybe the armour makes the chariot to heavy to be easily pulled by the wolves. i am not sure how it is intended to be played, how many other chariots are there with terminator armoured characters? or is this the first time?

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm using common sense.

Stop this. No, you're not. You're pretending that your "understanding" of the rules is somehow better than mine, and using "common sense" as some kind of defense that's impossible to tear down because it literally has no basis in rules.

Common sense dictates that while it is written as "treated as a single model", it also says that Chariots are themselves treated as Infantry and make Sweeping Advances.

So what does common sense say about a unit in a Land Raider arriving from Reserves - can they assault?

So once again: Show me in Grimnar's profile where it explicitly states that Stormrider does not make Sweeping Advances.

Irrelevant and unnecessary.

Stop trying to apply Transport rules to this situation - they don't apply. They're not the same. You're failing to understand how the rules work. Is there another way you'd like that phrased?
You bringing up the KFF is a perfect demonstration of your lack of understanding.

I would suggest you tone down the "lack of understanding" seeing as how you completely missed the point.

I brought up the KFF because it explicitly states that the effect applies to the vehicle when the model utilizing the Wargear boards it.

Sigh. I understand that's what the KFF does. It's not relevant because a) Chariots aren't transports b) it's an aura c) transports are not a member of the embarked unit, let alone the same model as.

You're continuing to compare a chariot to a transport - you shouldn't, as the rules make them distinct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Fair enough nosferatu. I don't generally go into "YMDC".

I just find this train of logic ridiculous, as it is the same that some local players have been trying to use to justify not giving Terminator models Invulnerable Saves against AP2 attacks--unless they have a Storm Shield.

... what? No... there's no train of logic that would make sense with.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Terminator Armor is wargear. The effects of wargear only apply to the model wearing/utilizing said wargear unless otherwise specified.

Precisely.

Logan on a Chariot is one model. Not Logan + Chariot = 2 models. They are one model for all rule purposes. Which includes wargear.

benefits of the wargear only apply to model wearing, but restrictions would apply to the whole unit, does not matter here because it is 1 model, but attach logan and his chariot to your thunderwolves and it would prevent them from sweeping

forgotten ghosts wrote:
benefits of the wargear only apply to model wearing, but restrictions would apply to the whole unit, does not matter here because it is 1 model, but attach logan and his chariot to your thunderwolves and it would prevent them from sweeping

Yes, this also.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Terminator Armor is wargear. The effects of wargear only apply to the model wearing/utilizing said wargear unless otherwise specified.

As per the Chariot rules they are one model.

So the Chariot model does indeed have Terminator Armour. And as you said yourself (see underlined) the wargear effects the model.

Forgotten Ghosts,
There are Rules preventing Logan joining other Units while on the Chariot.
You are still correct in the core analysis, even if the Chariot and the Rider have permission to be treated a separate Models for Sweeping Advances the Restriction still applies as it is a 'all or nothing' Rule.

I will say RAW would not let sweeping advance but......

Come on it says b/c terminator armor is slow and cumbersome they cannot preform a sweeping advance. Chariots are not slow and there for it should be ruled he can sweep. I mean seriously your saying a chariot can't a guy on foot?

The rules for terminator armor do include a why and in this case the why doesn't apply b/c of the chariot.

don't have the book so didn't know logan couldn't join units good to know tho

A terminator is a whole ton heavier than a regular armor, so assuming that it would slow down the Chariot as well makes sense to me.

forgotten ghosts wrote:
don't have the book so didn't know logan couldn't join units good to know tho

If he is just in his Terminator Armor He Can Join and be joined.
If he is riding his Chariot, He can not join, nor can he be joined.

good to know as well thanks, i actually have a bunch of unpainted space wolves that i have acquired over there years(including a logan model i did paint) and just added to with the storm claw box, so was thinking about getting there book to use as allies to my am, though all that is completely off topic

 Anpu42 wrote:

forgotten ghosts wrote:
don't have the book so didn't know logan couldn't join units good to know tho

If he is just in his Terminator Armor He Can Join and be joined.
If he is riding his Chariot, He can not join, nor can he be joined.

I have only skimmed the codex a few times. I didn't see Logan as an option for being on foot. How is that happening?

i was actually wondering that as i don't believe the old model is for sale on the us website anymore

 Green is Best! wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

forgotten ghosts wrote:
don't have the book so didn't know logan couldn't join units good to know tho

If he is just in his Terminator Armor He Can Join and be joined.
If he is riding his Chariot, He can not join, nor can he be joined.

I have only skimmed the codex a few times. I didn't see Logan as an option for being on foot. How is that happening?

He's on foot by default. The Chariot is an upgrade.

 Green is Best! wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

forgotten ghosts wrote:
don't have the book so didn't know logan couldn't join units good to know tho

If he is just in his Terminator Armor He Can Join and be joined.
If he is riding his Chariot, He can not join, nor can he be joined.

I have only skimmed the codex a few times. I didn't see Logan as an option for being on foot. How is that happening?

Where it list Stormrider as an option.

 Green is Best! wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

forgotten ghosts wrote:
don't have the book so didn't know logan couldn't join units good to know tho

If he is just in his Terminator Armor He Can Join and be joined.
If he is riding his Chariot, He can not join, nor can he be joined.

I have only skimmed the codex a few times. I didn't see Logan as an option for being on foot. How is that happening?

You buy him as a LOW at 250 points and take the option "Can ride Stormrider" for +70 points

 Kanluwen wrote:

I'm using common sense.

I understand that is a rare and difficult thing to understand, but really. Try using it. Common sense dictates that while it is written as "treated as a single model", it also says that Chariots are themselves treated as Infantry and make Sweeping Advances.

No, actually, you're not.
1. Terminator armour prevents a sweeping advance, unless otherwise stated.
2. the model is wearing terminator armour.
3. Chariots may sweep, but do NOT have a statement that says they ignore the terminator armour rule.

So without a specific statement saying that they ignore the terminator armour, he may not sweep.

Can we add "appeals to 'common sense' automatically invalidate your argument'" to the YMDC rules?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Can we add "appeals to 'common sense' automatically invalidate your argument'" to the YMDC rules?

And how do you judge what that is?

What sounds like common sense to one person, might not be the same as another person.
Maybe pulling 2 tons of Terminator is too much for Reindeer Thunderwolves pulling the Chariot? Thus the restriction is justified.
Maybe it will be FAQ'd? Maybe it's intentional?